Sun 19 Jan 2020 6:11PM

Initiative: Radical ticket sale

CM Callum Macdonald Public Seen by 179

New thread

This thread is extremely long. To focus on any changes requested before launch, there's a new thread here. The rest of this thread is the history of how we got here, etc.

Time is running. Let's launch a slightly different type of ticket sale based on the philosophy of Kiez Burn: Let fail what the community does not carry?


Using the same model as KickStarter.

Here's the idea in simple terms:

  • We have 1'000 memberships available for Kiez Burn 2020

  • We need x€* to make Kiez Burn happen: Kiez Burn board e.V. will communicate final number

  • Each person chooses their own ticket price

    • You can choose to pay €1 or €1k or anything in between

    • Each person decides

    • The total number of tickets bought and the total amount is publicly visible

  • The ticket sale lasts for either:

    • 3 weeks**

    • Or until we reach our minimum funding target

  • If we reach our target, the system charges everybody's credit cards, and we have a burn!

    • If we do not reach the target, there might be no Kiez Burn. Or somebody might choose to run a different ticket sale later.

** I think 3 weeks is a good timeline, but I'm open to feedback on this. I think less time is probably better.


New ticketing system?

  • This takes our principles and radically applies them.

  • This makes our event more inclusive: People with radically low incomes can also participate (previous low-income ticket was 40€ and 10% of tickets)

  • Speed: people buying a ticket are engaged with the burn sooner

Old ticketing system?

  • we are sure to achieve our budget (we always sell out)

  • An established ticket transfer process that worked

  • It allows for paypal

Gathering advice

As part of the advice process, we are gathering advice from the Needs & people affected. Feel free to add missing responsibilities, impacted Needs or people that need to be consulted

Needs impacted by proposal

Here we want to map the different areas this proposal has an impact on + if we are covering it sufficiently.

  • IT - Building the digital tool & maintenance: @Callum Macdonald

  • Ticket transfers: not happening - missing responsibility

    • Can be added later.

  • Communication: @Callum Macdonald to create group with ticketing FAQ & support for buyers

  • Newsletter signup GDPR: @Callum Macdonald and communicorns make sure it gets linked correctly with the right Mailchimp. Text formulation tbd ==> missing responsibility

  • Terms & Conditions: use same as last year & update to 2020. Board to give final OK

    • @waldo When will the board sign off on this?

  • Dreams: we need the list of people that have a ticket to see who can vote. @Callum Macdonald can pull out the emails and give them to

  • Volunteering: we ask questions during ticket purchase to simplify volunteer outreach later. @Veroca R. Sala to give input based on last year's questions. @Otto and @Jan Thomas do we have those questions saved somewhere? - Questionnaire was very useful for recruiting volunteers. Questionnaire is available I can facilitate and update to 2020 if necessary.

    • @Jan Thomas has shared a list of questions from last year. Intention is to redirect to a form after ticket checkout to collect this data. My (@chmac) understanding is that this information is not mission critical, that we can organise an event without having these questions answered. We can still send event essential emails to all ticket holders to gather information later.

  • Budget definiton and moderation: we need a final budget need for Kiez Burn before launching ticket sales. Kiez Burn e.V. board

    • My (@chmac) understanding is that this has been set at €60k as an absolute minimum, but I'm ready to change this number to whatever else is agreed. My plan is to launch with a minimum €60k unless I hear otherwise.

  • Decide the #tickets up for sale: a proposal will be posted in the group. But the first ticketing round could contain only 1000 tickets.

  • Enable other forms of payment: Missing responsibility

    • If somebody steps into this role, I'm ready to support. I do not consider it to be a blocker if there is not a volunteer willing to do this. - @chmac

Gathering advice

As part of the advice process, we gather input from experts and leads/people affected.

  • Gate: advice needed from Monkey Kiez on proposal

    • @chmac - I don't see the impact on gate. There are currently no transfers. I don't see how changing ticket pricing affects gate.

  • e.V. Board: needs to give legal OK & define how the budget would be set

    • @chmac - I don't see what the "legal OK" means in this context. We're doing a ticket sale. It's just like last year, but earlier, and participants choose their own price. What aspect of this requires board approval?

  • Volunteer coordination: @Veroca R. Sala was lead last year and can give best advice

    • If @Veroca R. Sala has any specific requests from this, happy to discuss. I have discussed the proposal with her both in person and she has participated here.

  • Ticketing team experiences last year: @Otto and @Jan Thomas

    • Both of these have added input here, and where possible, I've taken it on board.

What if...

Many things could go wrong. Here's a few examples to answer some common questions.

  • We don't get enough money

    • Then maybe there's no burn. Or maybe somebody else will run a more traditional ticket sale.

  • We secure a location which cannot accommodate 1'000 people.

    • Then we'll ask people to voluntarily give up their spots. If we don't have enough volunteers, we'll use a random lottery.

  • Can people transfer their memberships?

    • No. We might revisit this later if somebody volunteers to manage this.

  • We need more money in the end

    • We can always do more crowdfunding. Or use the precompression as a fund raiser. Or organise other fundraisers. Or find a way to reduce our budget.

What else might go wrong? Lots. Feel free to post suggestions or improvements.

Detailed process

  • It's a first-come, first-served sale.

  • You say you want to buy a membership.

  • You enter your email address.

  • We send you a "confirm your email" link.

  • You enter your legal name (must match your ID when you arrive onsite)

    • We warn you that membership cannot be transferred.

  • You decide how much to pay for your membership. Minimum either €1 or maybe €3 depending on our payment processor costs (to be figured out shortly).

  • You enter your credit card information.

  • The system puts a "hold" on your chosen amount against your credit card.

  • If we reach the minimum goal within the minimum period, we charge your card.

    • If we do not, then your card is never charged. The "hold" will automatically expire after about 4 weeks.

You can come back later and change your ticket price. The process would be:

  • Enter your email

  • We send you a link

  • You click the link in your email

  • You can change your selected € amount

There is no option to pay by bank transfer. If somebody volunteers to handle people paying by bank transfer, we will try to incorporate this into the sale process.


I'd like to launch this as soon as possible. Realistically it will take at least 1 week, possibly more, to talk to the affected parties. But the idea is to do it soon, so we have our budget for the year settled long before the event, and we can start planning with money already in the bank.

Official launch 14 Feb, soft launch earlier.

Open questions

  • There are some people who have been excluded from the event. How do we incorporate this into the system somehow.

    • Status: This is currently unclear. Unless somebody has a list of email addresses to exclude, I suggest we process this afterwards. I will add text warning people that Kiez Burn e.V. retains the right to cancel their ticket for any reason at all, subject to a refund.

  • Can we actually sell memberships instead of tickets? Discussion on this topic is here.

    • This is a standard ticket sale, where participants choose their own price. No memberships this year.

  • Do we start the process by only sharing the link with volunteers? This might let more involved members and volunteers have first access, and might set the right tone in terms of how much people will contribute.

    • This is the current action.


In the spirit of consensual doocracy, I'm ready to drop this proposal if somebody commits to do ticketing and wishes to veto this.

We could also apply this process to an alternative event rather than the main Kiez Burn event. To be clear, my offer is to run this for the main event. Anybody else is free to apply this model any other events.


Sorry this proposal is so long. There's quite some detail in here that I wanted to explain.


Some highlights from the discussion:

  • Memberships or tickets

    • The e.V. is not ready to be able to sell temporary "memberships" yet. This might be possible in future years, or later, but won't happen for this sale. This sale will sell tickets.

  • Other payment options

    • There's quite some discussion around this. Several people have said they might volunteer to support this. It might be possible to integrate stripe SEPA direct debits.

    • Status: Unclear

  • Timeline

    • As per several people's suggestions, delayed until the Kiez Burn date has been set. Planning to launch Sat 1 Feb.

  • Viral sharing

    • An idea came up in the discussion to share the link at first with core community members and ask them to forward it. Plan is to do this starting 1 Feb, and then share more broadly (Facebook, potentially newsletter, etc) after 7-10 days.

  • Can we sell tickets without an event confirmed?

    • There's some legal uncertainty about selling tickets for an event which is not guaranteed to happen. My understanding is that this happens every year, the final permission for the event happens only a month before.

    • Status: Working on the final wording for this.

  • What will the output of this process be?

    • Either, the sale fails. Or, we have a list of email addresses + legal names of those people who have bought a ticket for Kiez Burn 2020. This can be exported into any kind of format that can then be imported into Dreams, etc.

  • Refunds

    • If the event does not happen for any reason, Kiez Burn e.V. will refund all participants in the ticket sale, as per any other ticket sale. At this point this initiative is purely to run the sale earlier, and to allow participants to choose their own price. In other regards its a standard ticket sale.

  • Only one ticket per email.

  • Timeline updated

    • Official launch 14 Feb to coincide with the location decision. Soft launch before to core volunteers.


Poll Created Sun 19 Jan 2020 6:12PM

Do you support? Closed Wed 22 Jan 2020 6:00PM

by Callum Macdonald Wed 29 Jan 2020 1:30PM

We are a go

This poll wasn't meant to be binding, but a means of taking a flavour of the opinions. I hear there are objections, and I have done my best to listen to them. I also see there is support, and yes votes outnumber the no votes.

Now we have a date committed, it's time to launch a radical sale. Let's put our money where our mouthes are, let's give the community a chance to vote with their wallets and say yes to KB 2020.

My goal is to start a soft launch Saturday during the KB coworking. We share the link with active volunteers and ask them to do the same. After about a week or so, we share it more publicly across all our channels.

The revolution will not be centralised. ❤️❤️❤️

Do you support radically applying the "Let fail what the community does not carry?" philosophy?


Results Option % of points Voters
Agree 50.0% 6 EJ N DU LN CM
Abstain 25.0% 3 DG F M
Disagree 25.0% 3 JH CY N
Block 0.0% 0  
Undecided 0% 255 J C JT GE B RH VRS KC K RN P S M E LB M AC DU S JF

11 of 266 people have participated (4%)


Sun 19 Jan 2020 6:36PM

I support this, but i think we can think about a bigger Minimum, 1 or 3 € is very less....What do you think about 40€??? It is also very less for a 4 Day Event and i think the chance to get the 80K is much more realistic
Because when somebody get in with 1€ another one has pay 179€
Or what do you guys think about an extra Croudfounding for People who want to Support us, but dont want/ can go to the Kiez Burn this year??

Greets Niklas


Alina, also known as Universe
Sun 19 Jan 2020 8:19PM

Yes please! LOVE this & thank you @chmac. Actually also love this being radical and therefore not having a 40 Euro minimum. I would be super curious to see how many of us choose to pay 1 Euro, too, when the info on cost of the event is made clearly available.


Mon 20 Jan 2020 10:13PM

I think it better to calculate realistic prices and offer low income tickets. So you know from the beginning the amount you need to afford the burn.


Mon 20 Jan 2020 11:16PM

If some of the already mentioned issues vanish I will vote Dafür ^


Callum Macdonald Sun 19 Jan 2020 6:43PM


I mentioned a figure of €80'000 to run Kiez Burn 2020 in the post. This is based on the numbers from last year, but with €10k budgeted for additional First Aid instead of dreams. It's hard to know in advance what our real costs will be. There's a "final location" meeting on 28 Jan, so hopefully then we will have better information.

I suggest we set a minimum of €80k and a goal of €100k. That would give a little extra money for dreams, unexpected situations, etc. But if we do only get €80k, it's also very likely we can organise the event, just with less art grants.

If anybody else wants to decide this number, great.


CJ Yetman Mon 20 Jan 2020 1:28PM

Where did you find the numbers from last year that you based this on? Sounds way too high from what I remember. Also, we could radically reduce our budget if we didn't spend ~33% of it on Dreams.

Finance post-mortem for last year says: €76k of income, €44k of expenses, €15k of Dreams


Franzi Wed 29 Jan 2020 5:56PM

80k sounds about right but for the budgeting we need also to consider week 51 (which is the spendings of the rest of the year). With being a verein now, we have financial liabilities we need to take care of throughout the year.


Callum Macdonald Sun 19 Jan 2020 6:47PM

@niklas Allowing people to pay without attending is interesting. Might be a challenge legally speaking. If we try the "buy a membership" option, then what do you get if you give money but don't want membership? Maybe you just say "Here Kiez Burn e.V. have €20". Not sure how that works from the accounting, etc.

About the minimum, I suggest we structure:

  • Generous: €140
  • Standard: €100
  • Low income: €40
  • Choose your own: €_________

We can also preselct the standard so that's most likely the option folks will choose. But if somebody can truly only afford €5, then they can still participate. If they then ask 3 friends to pay €140 each, they've covered their own ticket!

Plus, we can show people based on their selected amount, whether Kiez Burn is currently going to happen or not. So we can say "You've chosen to pay €40, the average so far is €75, we need a minimum average of €80 for Kiez Burn to happen".


Saskia Sun 19 Jan 2020 7:17PM

Question: Is there a way for people without credit cards to take part in this fun game. I, personally, do not own one and also do not currently wish to pay for one / have one.

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