Sat 7 Mar 2020 6:14PM

[Decision] - Radically Decentralized Art Funding - DEFERRED TO 2021

AK Alex Kaos Public Seen by 31

A decision has been made

  • Who made the decision: @Alexxx

  • When was the decision made: Sunday - 08/03/20

  • Decision Summary: This proposal will be put on the backburner for KB20. I would appreciate if you find and read this, to input your comments and thought on the topic, as it will be reviewed again in the fall of 2020 to re-emerge again as a proposal for KB2021. The more input we have on this thread, the better formulated proposal I can assemble at the start of next year. Thank you kindly for your time.


Thank you for the input everyone.

Due to the pause placed on Dreams because of this advice process, I consider it unwise to continue exploring the idea for KB2020. We will continue with the expected workload and manage accordingly.

The idea is naturally controversial, and I received almost balanced feedback, both positive and negative within the 24 hours of running.

  • It is clear to me that any major budget-affecting proposals need to be finalized early in the earl (i.e. by the end of January), and need at least 6 weeks if not 2 months in order to allow emotional space for participants to discuss and play with the idea. The heated and fracturing response to the 3 controversial proposals of this spring highlighted that to me personally.

  • Some participants were excited by the encouragement of Self-Reliance and Gifting contained within, as well as the more transcendental communal effort of supporting artists and creators in developing crowdfunding techniques that could be practices outside of our burniverse.

  • Others were concerned that the message Finance, and hence KB, that would be portrayed would be an unsupported environment for participants to bring their contributions to Kiez Burn. And so felt that we would become less inclusive.

  • Which of these principals we consider of highest value is to be assessed subjectivley. In the case of organizational structures, I would hope to think that it would be the affected responsible parties (primarily finance and dream guides) interperation of these values that would decide whether this a worthwhile proposal or not. I do consider dreamers affected, and I expect most would not be happy with the idea as we take one rung of 'Kiez Burn security' out of the equation, but I am personally in this gig to support and enable positive transformation growth, not to have simply more Art (by which I mean more art easily, I think on a macro level, enabling artists to fund their own projects year round more powerful and makes more art than giving them a single year hand-out), and so the support I would then offer to provide to assist those dreamers realize their projects through this new proposal much more valuable for our community as a whole.

Thank you kindly for your time in reading this. Please comment with your feedback on the topic. This is still in INFORMATION GATHERING STAGE, and so is not a full proposal yet. I am SEEKING ADVICE, so if your opinions do not help me to make a better decision, then please re-frame them so that they do.

The decision would need to be finalized by, at the latest, the day before the Ticket's go on Sale. As this proposal would make the Kiez Burn Tickets Cheaper.


Alex - Finance Lead


Proposer’s role:

I am the Schatzmeister of the Verein and Finance Lead for the event.

The advice process

The first step in the advice process is to gather input and advice from experts and people affected. (see realities)

Information gathered before posting

  • Spoke with @Callum Macdonald in November who proposed the radical idea.

  • Spoke with @Saskia (The Fuzzy Facilitator) who's currently driving the Dreams process. She would like more information on the idea before inputting more advice, but would like the proposal/decision to be made quickly as she would be relinquished of a lot of work if it goes forward.

  • Spoke with @Franzi who displayed concern with how this proposal would interfere with our Vereinszweck - "Die Förderung von Künst und Kultur" (The promotion of Arts and Culture), not just in a legal setting, but also from a philosophical perspective as to what we represent as an organization and community.

People/roles most affected by this proposal

  • Finance @Alexxx

  • Dreams Platform @Saskia (The Fuzzy Facilitator) @waldo @Mareike @Clément @Paul aka Khromo (who else from here?

  • Ticketing (Otto and Jan)

  • Potential Art Department @benjamin Langholz

  • Robot Ministry @Robot Ministry's Helper Bot @flo @Henrik 🤖 @zach dunton

People/roles with the most knowledge and experience relevant to this proposal:

  • Finance @Alexxx

  • The Board in General @Franzi @Remy Schneider @waldo @HM

  • Previous Finance @Arthur Taylor

The proposal


Currently, KB collects funds from participants through ticket sales. We try to divert as much of the raised money towards an Art Grants budget, after all Production and Organizational costs have been covered.

  • In 2018 there was an Art Grant committee that selected the Art projects from applications sent to them. The process was nontransparent and highly time consuming for the art grants team, hence the move to the dreams platform.

  • In 2019, that remaining budget (roughly 15k€) was directed to the Dreams Platform where participants could advertise their art project, and ticket holders could spend 'tokens' (allocated from their purchased ticket), which would amount to real-life refundable in Euros on the expenses of their project. The process was Transparent for most users, but there was still a lot of overhead time in setting-up and managing the Dreams Platform, as well as the many many hours of work done by several Dream guides to support the Dreamers in their projects.

  • In both those cases, after all of that was done, piles upon piles of somewhat-organized receipts were painstakingly gathered by artists, uploaded to an online tool, checked by the Dream guides that they were in-line with the 'Dreams Agreement', then organized and sent to Finance who had to check the validity of each receipt individually, double check the total sums of the receipts, spend about 30 hours of photocopying receipts for lazy artists (no joke), before processing in the backed finance spreadsheet, cover-sheets and documentation added, and then finally the refund could be sent to the artists.

  • At this point then it goes in a folder and is sent to the bookkeepers, who are costing us this year 80€ an hour for them to input all that information into their special programs and ensure that we did everything correctly before calling Finance to inform them of mistakes that Finance then has to chase hippies down in the height of summer for a piece of paper that the artists doesn't care about because they've got their money and life is good (so the problem is with the Verein and Schatzmeister).

Finance is currently recruiting developers and many others to re-design the finance tool to minimize this workload by automating as much of the process as possible. But this is a large investment of time and resources, and will only improve the overall process (which took me about 200 hours, after the burn, including emails, chasing things down, and photocopying.... fuck I hate the photocopying...)

Hence the Proposal

The proposal

Radically Decentralize the Art Funding.

  • The Event budget is formed as a "Camping Event, in which we are hosting an Art Exhibition". Meaning the ticket is at the lowest price, and only covers production and organizational costs. This has the benefit that it is a clean 7% VAT, wheras currently we are uncertain we will get the "Cultural event" status, which is what we require for a 7% VAT. This means would probably have to pay 19% VAT (Which is a difference of 8000€ on the 2019 Budget)

  • We use the Dreams Platform as a platform to advertise the Art projects participants want to bring to Kiez Burn.

  • The Dream Guides operate instead as facilitators for Dreamers to set up Paypal Money Pools and Gofundme Campaigns. And we use the Kiez Burn platform to promote the projects and ensure they are well seen.

  • Participants Pay money directly to the Art Projects they want to see happen. Both Paypal and Gofundme are set up to be transparent and very easy, with multiple payment options and WAY more flexibility in timing. They have their money before the event as opposed to getting refunded some time afterwards (in some cases that was up to 4 months)

How would the proposal be implemented

  • The Budget and ticket price would need to be adjusted accordingly

  • @Robot Ministry's Helper Bot would need to be informed to change the Dreams Platform (simplify, as there is no need to implement heavy questionairs, or a system to transfer tokens from the ticketing platform to the dreams)

  • The Dream Guides would need to change the Dreamer Application process slightly, and adjust their roles to support Dreamers in a different fashion.

  • Support material could be created to assist Dreamers in the process of setting up their funding streams. Video Tutorials (@Alexxx is already working on this), written documentation for the step-by-step process.

Who would implement this proposal

@Alexxx - If I don't need to invest countless hours into setting up the documentation and communication for the Dreams refund process, then I can divert than energy to supporting Dreamers and Dream Guides to set up their new funding systems.

When would this proposal be implemented

At the latest, the day before Ticket Sales go online. Dreamers could start their funding process immediately (before ticket sales are even discussed). The Dreams Platform is up and running from 08.03.20, and their funding process could already start.

What would be the cost (time, money, effort, etc.) of this proposal

  • For Finance it's more than 50% of the total workload I have to commit to (saving me in the region of 100 voluntary hours, potentially more)

  • For Dream Guides it will likely also lower the total workload by a lot (I'd estimate 50%, as there's no guidelines to adhere to, the processes are the same for every application, and once the funding channels are set up, there's no more work for the Dream Guides)

  • Artists would need to divert some time (<30 mins) in setting up the Gofundme and/or Paypal Money Pools (<2 min if you have a Paypal account). This could actually be significantly less time that required to organize their receipts.

What are the advantages of this proposal (relative to the current situation and/or counter-proposals)

How does your proposal relate to the Kiez Burn principles?

  • Radical self reliance (Artists get their own money directly, and manage themselves)

  • Community (Trust that they will bring the project they say)

  • Co-Creation (Participants choose the projects they want to fund directly)

  • Participation (It's still transparent and other support can still be acquired)

  • Gifting (Duh)

  • Immediacy (Strong CTA could help the artists get the funding they want)

  • The major advantages of the proposal is that hundreds if not thousands of volunteer hours are saved from sorting, organizing and examining boring receipts and invoices in the quest to fulfill German bureaucratic standards. It is an un-gratifying job for both the artists (dreamers) (who have to organize all their receipts correctly and properly this year if they want a refund) and finance (who has to check everything himself in order to not be liable for any mistakes made throughout the whole process).

  • There will simply be NO RECEIPT HANDLING CONCERNING ART GRANTS with this proposal. The Artists gets their money, and does what they want with it. Finance and Kiez Burn e.V doesn't see the money at all and so has nothing to process.

  • Dreamers get their money before the event. Currently they have to put the funds up beforehand, and then we refund them afterwards. This way the Dreamer can use the donations to directly fund the project, relieving a financial burden.

  • Also the Role of Dream Guide should become significantly more enjoyable as they should end up spending more time assisting Dreamers to make their dream come true rather than argue over little details contained within their Dream Agreement (the rules and regulations of the Dreams Platform and process).

  • Artists can easily expand their campaign outside of the Kiez Burn microverse and get extra funding from external sources (other communities, personal friends etc). This is actually a very valuable skill that can help them fulfill other projects outside of Kiez Burn.

  • Finally, organizing ourselves as a camping event is a very clean (meaning it is certain) 7% VAT application in the eyes of the Finanzamt. What we do traditionally is a very grey area in terms of applying for the 7% VAT as a "Cultural Event" (The German law book recognizes "Theater and other performance Art as 7%, every other form of art is questionable, and can be 19% or 7% depending on which Officer/judge is looking at the case. Music festivals and events are 19% explicitly as the other reference. They decide what they think we are, and we can only argue so far with them. More information on this topic will follow in April after our Taxes have been investigated, which will be too late for this proposal)

    In the event we also fund Benjamin's Large Art proposal, having 3 or so large Artist invoices in the bookeeping would actually make us eligible for the "Cultural Event" status, which would incur a 7% VAT on ticket sales. It is the messiness of the Dreams Refund process that puts our event's status into question (for the Finanzamt 'Art' = "Paying an Artist for Art", and does not equal "refunding random hippies for their interpretation of art". Info from the Steuerberater)

What are the disadvantages of this proposal (relative to the current situation and/or counter-proposals)

  • There is a risk that participants will not put their money where there mouth is. That when it comes to individually paying for Projects (which was about 15€ per ticket holder in 2019), they could not overcome the emotional barrier and actually make the payment independently. I believe that this would be a strong reflection of our community, and is a social experiment that could be worth undertaking to discover how much our beloved burners are actually willing to pay for the Art we love so much.

  • Large Art projects could have a much harder time than smaller art projects. But that is actually a current problem with the Dreams Platform as it stands, and a reason for the Art Grant Committee proposal by @Benjamin Langholz. In actual fact, the idea of putting some money towards his proposal (~5k€ as an example), and having it directed to professional artists that could charge kiez burn a Single Invoice, would be a perfect hand-in-hand solution to this problem, as the overhead of work for Finance would be minimal, and Benjamin has offered to oversee the remainder of the process.

  • The system could get gamed. Dreamers might lie, or accept money and not use it, or not bring their projects at all, and that couldn't be traced or tracked back. At the moment they could simply send in fake receipts if they want to game the system, so there is little extra protection by adding our bureaucracy to the equation. The only advantage KB offers is that if they don't come, we'll probably notice (not guaranteed) and only issue a partial refund (Korg dependent). The question is, how much do we trust our own people? Is distrust a good reason not to experiment with this method?

  • Paypal Money Pool does have a 'goal' function, but the money goes directly into the pool. It is a very simple process of refunding if the Dream doesn't work out for any reason, but it is done at the trust of the Dreamer.

  • GOfundMe doesn't have a minimum Goal function, but Kickstarter does. Kickstarter has higher fees (5%), but would be a safer option for the donating participants, as the project only get's the money when they reach their minimum.

  • Generally Trust/security are the major issues with this proposal. And open a much larger range of questions. How much trust can we give each other as a larger network? What would be the potential consequences of breaching this trust? If we don't trust each other enough to fund our projects in this way, why do we do it under the safety blanket of Kiez Burn? (By which I mean, trust would be an integral value any community I would want to be a part of)

Thank you kindly for your time in reading this. Please comment with your feedback on the topic. This is still in INFORMATION GATHERING STAGE, and so is not a full proposal yet.

I am SEEKING ADVICE, so if your opinions do not help me to make a better decision, then please re-frame them so that they do.

Once I have received some input and confirmed the legal ramifications from the Steuerberater and a Lawyer, the proposal can be adjusted or scrapped accordingly.


Write here when you think a decision can be taken or should be taken. You could set a deadline if other important leads/areas are dependent on a decision here. Or you could take the open-ended view that you will take a decision when all have had the chance to give advice.

When a decision was reached, write on top of the thread:

A decision has been made

  • Who made the decision: Your name

  • When was the decision made: Date

  • Decision Summary: Short version of what you have decided


Bee Sat 7 Mar 2020 7:43PM

Heya, I understand all Advice Process' are not the same so it may be hard to judge, but do you have a deadline for this decision? (Keeping in mind the Dreams platform launches tomorrow with the newly updated manual and advice for the budget allowances etc).


Paul aka Khromo Sat 7 Mar 2020 8:29PM

I don't see the accountability.

Personally, as at artist, it would make me way less likely to submit a dream if there's the case that I 'might' be reimbursed for it. But then I don't trust Berliners :) - "Hey Paul! We know we promised you 50 euro, but the thing is... we need to save up for our round the world turn anstead and we're soooooo broke at the moment! But if you want to come round tomorrow evening, we'll cook you a lovely bowl of vegan soup instead, so we'll be even ok?!"

Also - how is this going to effect the ticket price? Seeing as a portion of the ticket price goes to fund the dreams; tickets should technically be cheeaper, I would have thoguht?


Flo Sat 7 Mar 2020 9:12PM

So in short words you are asking dreams to only list the dreams with a gofundme or a papal pool page on it and not have the ability to vote on them with the dream tokens.
I see that it takes you a lot of time and work for book keeping and it would be great to lessen your work but there are some downside I see:

  • Previously by buying a kiezburn ticket 15€ was paid for the art grant fund, so we forced people to make a contribution. If that falls away I wonder how many people would actually donate money to art projects.

  • every dreamer would have to create their own gofundme / paypal pool page and link it with the dream.

  • time. We are launching dreams tomorrow and I am just going over a lot of issues to make the changes we discussed in the last meeting. If that proposal would go through I wouldn't have to worry about some of those issues.

  • Having dreams only work as a listing page for dreams would render most of it's functions that have been implemented useless.


CJ Yetman Sun 8 Mar 2020 5:11AM

Making people put their money where their mouth is... I suspect this will mean substantially less art will be funded, but I guess this is the the best way to find out how many people really want to pay for art.


Saskia Sun 8 Mar 2020 9:35AM

One correction: Minimum funding in Dreams CAN be zero, so that is not an argument at all. Every dream can choose to have a minimum of zero. Still, dreams mention their minimum to be not at zero. Because they cannot make the project happen under a specific amount of money, they rarely choose zero.

Also: I wish to acknowledge the background of this advice proposal and I see that the workload for finances is gigantic + I agree that it should be slimmed down. I can see the benefits of saving volunteers hundreds of hours. I can also see how this idea will result in that outcome.
I am not the one to process finances, hence I can only argue from my side.

Advice process:

I see the following consequences:

  • I echo @Franzi concern about this interfering with our Vereinszweck in a legal and philosophical way and I already mentioned this, when @Alexxx talked to me in person.

  • It doesn't save all these hours. It just distributes them differently (Concern level: Mild)

  • It passes other finance issues from KiezBurn event volunteers to the individual volunteers (Concern level: Strong ; Principle relation to inclusion)

    • Is it legally possible for individuals or unregistered group to collect big sums of money without tax issues? AKA do we move the tax burden over to our artists and contributors? Do they have to set up a nonprofit Verein themselves in order to justify collecting 1000s of euros?

    • If they can just collect a small amount of money without issues, do we actually reinforce our bias to small projects once again?

    • We also do not consider people who are unemployed. If you do get unemployment benefits in Germany you cannot simply collect money like that without risking your unemployment payments. Not a problem for groups, a bigger problem for individuals, especially already disenfranchised ones

    • Is this something you could check with the Steuerberater as well?

  • There will be less Kiez Burn in general (Concern level: mild, also speculative)

    • Not because people don't want and like art, but because the psychological threshold for payment needs to be crossed for every single art piece and installation and performance. But maybe there will also be a bunch of people giving 1 euro to 24 projects? I don't really know, but my academic background tells me that is unlikely. I do not wish to underestimate the burner community here, tho! Maybe the average spent on art will be way more than the 15-20 euro from the ticket

    • The setup for such a money pool is also an additional hassle. As well as the discussion about returning the money if the project doesn't happen or cannot happen or doesn't reach the minimum funding necessary (Esp. if my 2nd concern about taxes turns out to be true)

  • Lack of kindness and consideration (Concern level: mild to medium)

    • Maybe that's just me, but it feels to me like we're telling a lot of people to be on their own or that their type of art is less welcome this year. People who bring (loud) sound, people who bring Kieze and now the artists themselves. This is maybe very snarky and very much in line with the DIY attitude of a burn, but I think it would be good to gift the people some prep time 'Hei there will be no funding whatsoever, you got to get your funding your self'

    • I do not feel comfortable promoting dreams if we have to turn around in 1 week telling them 'Oh sorry, actually, no funding from us at all, do it yourself.' I do not consent to this back and forth and if that happens it is part of the realizer of this idea (aka finance) to stick their head out and tell every one

  • If we do it this way, there is no need to exclude Kieze from the exposure (Concern level: Not a concern, but rather an advice)

    • If we do it this way I do not see any reason to exclude Kieze further. They can and should be just as allowed as BIG ART artists to use the exposure of the dreams platform to funnel money into their camp if they wish to.

  • The dreams platform is obsolete (Concern level: Not a concern, just a tip)

    • I don't see a reason to use dreams any longer. We can just make a page on website and allow people to add not just Kieze but also Projects and add the moneypool Link to any one of those descriptions

  • It'll change my involvement (Concern level: personal, but yea well.)

    • I have no personal interest being a PR and social media manager for artists. My concern is the dreams guideline and making dreams happen (in general, not for specific projects). I will not take part if dreams are changed into a pure 'we help you crowdsource your project' taskforce.

    • I may still help with making sure projects and dreams follow the legal and structural guidelines of the community but I will limit the scope of my responsibility drastically and I will decide on that later on


walto Sun 8 Mar 2020 12:58PM

I sympathize with the work that you, Alex, have put into making art funding possible. I have been there, going through the receipts, in the past as well.

Dreams process 2020

We went through 3 different stages with the Dreams project this year, 2 of which were focused on gathering input and advice. The input we got thus far regarding Dreams, was that we needed a Dreams finance lead to dedicate 30-40 hours of their time into Dreams. I believe we even got a response from someone being interested to help.

We had a Dream meeting this week where we then went through to address the problems and opportunities that were identified towards actually making art happen for Kiez Burn this year. We were not aware that the problems you were trying to solve were so big. We have invested quite a bit of time meanwhile to get Dreams up and running for 2020

Objections to Dreams process 2020

You are the finance lead of Kiez Burn, so if you say that the envisioned process would be too much to handle for you, I see this as a non-consent to go through with the Dreams process as it was envisioned.

I regret that this comes at a time when we actually wanted to launch the Dreams platform and not during the Dreams advice phases. I regret that this now means that the Dreams platform gets further delayed or even becomes irrelevant soon.

What this means for Dreams

You write that the time of implementation is the latest the day before the ticket sales go online. This is incorrect. When we launch the Dreams platform we need to be able to commit to the WHY of why people would enter their Dreams in the Dreams platform.

In other words: we cannot launch the Dreams platform if you, Alex, does not consent to the way it is set up. Thusfar, we believed we had consent. Now it seems, we do not.

Therefore, Dreams should not be launched today and work on it should be postponed until further notice.

What this means for me

I am personally not interested to be in a co-creation environment where things are so in flux. I need a bit more stability to stay engaged & motivated. Therefore, I will likely step back as a realizer of Dreams.


Paul aka Khromo Sun 8 Mar 2020 1:46PM

One other thing. Is there a deadline for this idea? Dreams was go live today. If we hold off, hope long do you want us to hold off for?

Dreamers as well as guides are going to get impatient and this projects need time as well as support.


Veroca R. Sala Sun 8 Mar 2020 10:29PM

Isn't it possible to gather input for next year Dreams? Why are we pushing this to an advice process now?


Bee Mon 9 Mar 2020 1:09AM

The pausing of the Dreams process has changed my concerns for this proposal. I fully understand where you are coming from Alex, in light of the process you have to go through. The idea itself is actually something I would still Dream Guide if you were to lead the process, as I can get behind the idea of giving those skills (crowd funding, self reliance) to the community/artists so they can take them away back into the default world and continue to grow.

It is still a contentious issue for me, the Dreams team have been working for the past weeks on formulating how best to go forward with this, working fast to rewrite the manual after coming to a new working formula for KB20 and were about to launch the platform with a timeline in mind. The reality of this Proposal going forward could look like this: Artists have already spent time submitting their proposals and are suddenly told the rules have changed and they are going to have to do further work to potentially get funding. They may feel lack of security in the organisational team's efforts and put off further efforts towards contribution.

In terms of our principals I think there's a lack of Co-operation in the communication that potentially could have been had directly with the Dreams team in prior meetings before the co-creators had mapped out a plan and worked hard to achieve their goals. This feels a little like blocking or undercutting their efforts so far and understandably has people demotivated.

I think overall the timing is the determining factor here, and with the Dreams Launch not going ahead until an Advice Process is concluded I worry that this will dramatically effect art overall at the Burn (either by crowd-sourcing and we get a worse case scenario, or we launch Dreams too late and artists do not have time for creating any big art). I would support this going forward for next year, however.

Further, is there a way we can do more as a community to help you to fulfill this workload?
Could we seek for some finance minions to dedicate their time to helping double check/photocopy/etc post event? Can we make it fun? I would be happy to sit down and navigate some of this with you where possible.
Can you make it a non negotiable that 'lazy artists' photocopy their own receipts/be harsher on the following of refund protocol and save yourself some time with strict boundaries?
Could you facilitate the assistance of any willing Dream Guides more?


CJ Yetman Mon 9 Mar 2020 4:15PM

Folks, what are we trying to achieve here now... Alex has said multiple times he wants to completely table this idea for the time being, yet he's still being accused with conspiracy theories and being told that even though he said he was just seeking advice, he's actually doing more than that?!? Give the guy a break, he's got enough shit to do without defending himself on here.


Paul aka Khromo Tue 10 Mar 2020 9:06AM

I don't know Alex. I only go on the information to hand which indicates that the timing is curious, and it's the timing I'm commenting on, not Alex.
Anyway, it's been scrapped for a year as per my suggestion, so the specific advice is resolved positively as far as I'm concerned.

Now to the REAL issue - better distibution of the workload.


Paul aka Khromo Sun 8 Mar 2020 8:09PM

@Alexxx you "Only just found the dreams group on talk" - you talked to us as a group on the phone on Wedensday - why did you not brign it up then? When you've been aware of the idea since last November and the problem since last year?


Saskia Mon 9 Mar 2020 8:14AM

I echo this post a lot, especially the last paragraph. People have been laughing off your jokes about being the finance overlord overloaded with work. But let us find more ways how we can help you.


Alex Kaos Mon 9 Mar 2020 11:36AM

Thank you for your detailed feedback everyone.
I did request for support with finances from the Dream Guides at the meeting I called into. It has been relatively consistent feedback that I do not ask for enough help in projects in general, especially when it comes to the tasks that are completely not fun (i.e. cleaning toilets and reviewing 100's of receipts).

Your words make me feel very supported, and I feel confident we can work together, or develop different systems that can make this process less unrewarding.

Last year I had lots of free time in summer, this year I don't. My life is in flux like everyone else's and so the task I took on in December looks different now with everything that has happened in-between. It makes it hard to predict and solidify plans. I will effectively not be able to process the refunds from July-September anymore. If it is processed wrong, I am the legally responsible for that, and it would cost Kiez burn Money, as well as potential fraud (in a worst case and highly unlikely scenario)

Either way, there are solutions to lower the workload (one major one would be to defer Dreamer refunds until September. Which works for some people, but not for others). The dilemma lies with the legal weight of the responsibility, which makes it more complicated to distribute reliably. But we'll figure it out.

I still would like to go deeper into this proposal in the future, as on a philosophical level it resonates with me much more deeply than our current system (which I love, don't get me wrong. I just also feel we can go further and deeper into enabling on a more profound level). But it is not worth the energy required by the wonderful Dream Guides and myself to persue this at this time.

I want you all to know you have my full support, and I will aspire to remain more in the loop in the future, as this is a major area of my workload, and we don't need any big surprises.

thank you so much for everything you contribute!!! x x x x x x


Mareike Mon 9 Mar 2020 9:41AM

Hey Alex, I am on the same page with Bee and Saskia. We have been talking about this while working on the Dreams Manual so I will not repeat all of the concerns. But like Saskia also just said, I would like to stress again that we have to find ways to support you with this! I am willing to help (and help recruit) in case this proposal does not go through this year. When recruiting Dream Guides I think we have to also stress the "after-KB" - volunteers, maybe setting dates already when there will be help needed and lets try and make it fun (making it a "burning bureaucracy" saturday?! Don't know if I'm going crazy here now). And as Guides we have to be even more strict with receipts - everyone has to be self-reliant here. Otherwise, I should not cost you time!
Your proposal struck me a lot because I wasn't fully aware your workload, I am sorry about that and thank you for sharing this. Personally for me (after a first wave of frustration yesterday due to the timing), whatever happens with this proposal, I would like to support.


Alex Kaos Mon 9 Mar 2020 10:06AM

Due to the block placed on dreams as a result of this advice seeking process I will retract the request for advice. Continue with Dreams as originally planned, with the full support of Finance.

On your point "I think it is quite clear, that this is not merely an advice-seeking post", I think it is vastly unfair to remove my capacity to seek advice on controversial topics because I am a major realizer affected by such a potential proposal. I would be concerned what kind of a message this could send to other realizers in key roles.

My intention was to lower everyone's workload (mine included), and enable Dreamers in a more profound way than to give them money from a centrally managed pot.

In conclusion to the community response from the 3 major controversial 'proposals' placed this year, I will draft a proposal that any large 'budget-affecting' proposal would need a much longer deliberation time, and would have to be closed much earlier in the year (i.e. the end of January at the latest). This should hopefully lower the stress placed on realizers from a Chaotic organization environment which I perceive as being a direct derivative of a decentralized do-ocratic (consensual or not) operational methodology.


Paul aka Khromo Mon 9 Mar 2020 5:00PM

It's the timing, not the actual request. A lot of us put a lot of work into something that was to ready Sunday evening, then this showed up less than 24 hours beforehand.


CJ Yetman Mon 9 Mar 2020 5:18PM

Still no point in making it out like he had some under-handed scheme just to ruin your day. Geez, if this community can't trust that @Alexxx is not out to hurt people, we're doomed for sure.


CJ Yetman Tue 10 Mar 2020 9:23AM

Thank you, that's illuminating. I think this whole concept requires a lot of trust between the people engaged, and I can understand how that's hard/er to achieve online.


Daisy Sun 8 Mar 2020 11:10AM

We also don't know that with the current Dreams platform - some dreams do not make it to the minimal funding and sadly they can not make it.
Doing this will even bring more possibilities of funding because it opens to people who do not have a ticket to support....


Alex Kaos Sun 8 Mar 2020 10:41AM

Thank you so much for the detailed feedback, all of those points are already within my consideration:
(As a further suggestion, when we're listing many points to an argument, it might be easier to use numbers instead of bullet points to make responses more direct)

  1. On 'passing` finance onto people:

    1. With the FInanzamt, What's important is that you can explain and display that you didn't keep the money for yourself. It's a very very low risk situation for an individual, and actually much harder to explain as a business that needs to do a tax decleration. A privatperson is technically a Kleinunternehmer by default, and not subject to Tax for I believe less than 5000€ income in a year (I will check with the Steuerberater as I'm not certain about this). This doesn't necessarily mean you have to keep a copy of all the receipts, but putting them in a folder wouldn't hurt if you want to feel safe (this is no extra work, in fact it's less than the amount Finance would request from them if they were to make a Dream)

    2. Jobcenter is an issue, but it's an issue either way. You have to explain all income into your account, so long as you can explain it to the satisfaction of your Officer, then you're ok. But refund or pre-fund shouldn't make a difference. Plus the opportunity to use a friends Paypal/account is WAY too easy on a practical level in this field.

    3. Small Projects are still at a bias with the Dreams platform as best I understand, that's not changed. My proposal would work best when we also implement Benjamins Art Comittee proposal (which is also incredibly low overhead for FInance). In that case the decision is how much goes to big art (which is a question we need to decide anyways, and doesn't change because of this proposal)

    4. Why is it that we're so intent of protecting the artists from handling their own stuff? Is my time so much less valuable that I have to chase down badly organized receipt hand-ins for months after the event has finished? As opposed to supporting them in being self-reliant, I worry that over-protecting people with the Kiez Burn blanket is not offering the opportunity for Radical Growth that is my primary intention of doing the work I do. I no longer feel that managing the backend of invoices is how I, or our Organization, is really helping them become the best versions of themselves.

  2. You are absolutely right about the psychological barrier, I didn't ignore it in the proposal. It is a real thing, and could cause less art at Kiez burn this year. My proposal would include me re-investing my countless saved hours from managing the books into supporting and coaching and enabling dreamers to get the money, and participants to part with it. That would be the responsibility I take on with this, which is beyond my capacity with the current workload of finance due to Dreams.

  3. The Dreams platform is not obsolete, contrary to that it is VITAL to this process. Without it there would be no proposal. We have to have a good UX for our internal projects, so that ticket holders know what is possible to fund, and have a centralized location for all the links to fund them. But we do remove a huge proportion of the remaining workload for the Dream Guides and Robot Ministry by removing the Tokens, transfers, redistribution, enforcing regulations, exports, disgruntled participants. That's BEFORE we consider the Dream Guide overhead of checking all the invoices/receipts, before the Dream Bank checks it, before I check it again (yes it has to be looked at 3 times, unless I choose to do ALL the work myself).

  4. Thank you for your honesty about not wanting to be a part of what the Dream Guides would turn into. As part of the proposal I would take on the Role of Lead in that field and recruit the new Dream Guides, and create the network of support to enable artists to get their money. The reason I love this particular method so much, is we can teach Artists and Others how to do a real-life crowdfunding, and they can use this skill default reality. They no-longer will be baby-sat by Kiez Burn Task Force, and can make their own ideas come to life ALL YEAR ROUND (Ask @Daisy if this is a valid thought process. I believe after my suggestion to use this method last year she has used crowdfunding to solve at least one very major issue).


Saskia Sun 8 Mar 2020 2:01PM

He doesn't want us to hold off. It is our decision if we want to hold it off given this new development.
We as a dream team need to make the decision if we want to not publish dreams given this new advice process going on.
But this is a discussion for over thread over in this thread here!


Paul aka Khromo Sun 8 Mar 2020 2:28PM

Ah ok. My misunderstanding. But one way or the other we need a timeframe


Paul aka Khromo Sun 8 Mar 2020 2:33PM

So, are we talking days? Weeks? Months?


Alex Kaos Sun 8 Mar 2020 3:59PM

This is still "advice seeking", it's not actually a proposal yet. Nothing should be held off until a proposal is made. Nothing is in contention yet, I'm just searching for feedback.


walto Sun 8 Mar 2020 4:13PM

I think it is quite clear, that this is not merely an advice-seeking post. It contradicts how we envisioned setting up the Dreams platform, posing a blocker towards launching. Several Dream realizers have furthermore stated they are not interested to stay involved if this goes forward. At the same time, you, and the finance implementation you support, are an essential part of realizing the Dreams process, as envisioned.

Therefore, I proposed to pause Dreams until further notice.


Alex Kaos Sun 8 Mar 2020 4:15PM

I'm sorry that you feel so strongly about this. I would like to highlight that I am just seeking advice, and nothing is actually in contention yet.
I didn't know a lot of what you wrote here, hence the reason I am seeking advice.
I only just found the Dreams Group, I apologize I have not been navigating the maze of Talk effectivly enough to keep up with all the subgroups and threads. My desire to save time stems from me being under a lot of time-pressure as it is.

If you choose to back out because I am seeking advice, I can't change that, as I needed your input to even consider not asking for advice. But I haven't even refined a proposal to this time, and the hour is late in our event bubble. There's no certainty this will even get that far (especially with feedback like this).

I hope you take some more time to reconsider the present implications. Nothing might come of this, I'm just posing a question.


Saskia Sun 8 Mar 2020 4:20PM

Thank you for taking your time clearing this up, Alex.


Alex Kaos Sat 7 Mar 2020 8:57PM

The proposal deadline (if it goes ahead) would be the day before ticket sales. The Dreams platform can go online as it is in it's current form. I spoke with FLo, and the only major difference to the Dreams platform is that we don't need to set up the token link to ticketing (so less work for the Robot Ministry)


Paul aka Khromo Mon 9 Mar 2020 2:14PM

As I said before: while we defintely need to find alternartive solutions to this problem, this certinaly isn't one of them. As a serpate idea, it's worht invtestigating in its own right, but time is just too short for this specific procedure right now.


walto Mon 9 Mar 2020 3:52PM

The mere fact that Dreams got halted because of this advice process, already indicates that this post has/had power beyond merely seeking advice, because it addressed key problems within the finance flow. Realizers in key roles have the potential to disrupt the flow in other areas by their actions or words.


Alex Kaos Mon 9 Mar 2020 11:25AM

I I recall correctly, I believe the question I had for the Dreams Meeting in that call was:

"I would like a Dream Finance realizer for support as the workload for the managing Dream Refunds is large"

This current idea cam to fruition after this time.
Next time I will simply have my epiphanies is a more neatly and ordered manner to coincide with the co-creative process.


Alex Kaos Sat 7 Mar 2020 9:03PM

I don't understand what you mean with the accountability, could you be more specific please?

Ticket's would be cheaper yes.

If you use GOfundme or Paypal MOney Pool, there is no 'promised money'. You as an artist would get the money (-2% on Gofundme, free on Paypal) directly, without a min funding goal. The question is, will someone pay for it when they're not forced to? Burners often talk about how much we love Art and want to support Art, will they donate when Kiez Burn doesn't manage their funds for them?
Also, we have a min-funding marker on the current Dreams platform, so you would actually have one less barrier for getting your funds with this method I think.

If this proposal goes through, I would personally support you in setting up the system you need to get the ball rolling (outside of what you need to do on the Dreams Platform anyway). I have set up Gofundme's and Paypal Money Pools before, it would only take 20 mins for both once we're at a computer and you've finished the Dreams application.


Paul aka Khromo Sun 8 Mar 2020 10:35AM

My question is: how do we know people will actually support the dreams? Maybe they won't support anythign at all?


Saskia Sun 8 Mar 2020 10:37AM

That'd basically be in line with our idea of 'letting fail what the community doesn't carry'. 👐


Alex Kaos Sun 8 Mar 2020 11:05AM

I recognize that risk with this idea. And I can't say I am hopeful that things will work out way better than expected based on the statistics. But so far I feel it adheres much more to the Principles, and is a radical step towards decentralization.

If we go with this option, then all the energy I save from handling Dreams Finance would be redirected to supporting and enabling Artists to get the funding they need (Taking on a Dream Guide/Coach Role). That won't solve it, but to me it sounds like the sort of work I would like to see happen, for both myself and for the Dreamers.

I also am standing to take accountability for the results of this.The worst case is that there is no art at all, the next case is that there is less art and it's low quality. If there is no Art at Kiez Burn, I can (metaphorically) be burned on the Effigy in sacrifice. Next year I won't be elected as Schatzmeister, and can't appoint myself as Finance Lead...


Alex Kaos Sun 8 Mar 2020 11:06AM

We don't. That's the radical part of the proposal. The answer to that question is each our own, and is more a reflection of our projection on the world than it is an accurate prediction of the psychology of our community.

As I will continue to mention, I would take responsibility in trying to help to make this not the case, by taking a lead in supporting the dreamers and any Dream Guides wanting to help in this field. This work seems far more exciting and enabling to me as it stands.


Paul aka Khromo Sun 8 Mar 2020 1:40PM

Then I'm against the idea. I'm hearing tooamt contradictions. Everyone says they want art, bit I'm beginning to believe that's just a mantra.

What I'm hearing is, youd like to have art but you want to leave it up to chance and hope art shows up.

I'm which case, fair enough - but please stop using the 'we want art' mantra.


Saskia Sun 8 Mar 2020 10:46AM

Hei Alex. Thanks for addressing my concerns. :) I feel heard and appreciate it.

Just one reply.
"Is my time so much less valuable that I have to chase down badly organized receipt hand-ins for months after the event has finished?"

Of course your time is not less valuable. But you signed up to be the Schatzmeister of this Verein whose main goal it is to host this event which has the main goal of promoting arts and culture. So I don't see your time as less valuable but I do see how you did assign all the invoice-finance stuff to yourself more than the individual artist. ;)

That is not to lessen your point here, tho, and the rest of your argument remains untouched. :)


Paul aka Khromo Sun 8 Mar 2020 1:43PM

I'm the same. What am I signing up to? I know nothing about the platforms. What I have to offer is no longer needed, so let me know so I can step down rather than Ernest more energy in something I'm not good at


Saskia Sun 8 Mar 2020 11:10AM

Hei Alex. Thanks for addressing my concerns. :) I feel heard and appreciate it.

Just one reply.
"Is my time so much less valuable that I have to chase down badly organized receipt hand-ins for months after the event has finished?"

Of course your time is not less valuable. But you signed up to be the Schatzmeister of this Verein whose main goal it is to host this event which has the main goal of promoting arts and culture. So I don't see your time as less valuable but I do see how you did assign all the invoice-finance stuff to yourself more than the individual artist. ;)

That is not to lessen your point here, tho, and the rest of your argument remains untouched. :)


Paul aka Khromo Sun 8 Mar 2020 7:50PM

Thank you for saying what I was too scared to.

The problem has been in existence since last year, the idea was proposed back in November, we spoke to him on the phone last Wednesday - when he said nothing, but he chooses NOW to seek advice....?

COUNTER PROPOSAL - this idea is shelved until after Kiezburn and examined as a possible idea for KB2021 as it's too late to attain now, and other solutions are sought to respove the problem presented.