(Closed)Do we want to grow the Kiez Burn population in 2022?
Veroca R. Sala
Public
Seen by 48
Update: proposal is cancelled reasons are in the outcome of the poll at the bottom
this discussion will be open until 7.02.2022 and just then I will make a final poll which will be online for 5 days ( 12.02.2022 ). With this decision in place, tickets can move forward as well as the Korg having some certainly around the size of the event by the date of their next meeting (17.02.22)
Hi all, I am Vero. Second-year in the Board of the e.V, Korg 2021.
On this thread, I propose AND I seek advice to decide if we want more Kiez burners on the playa or if we are okay with the small villa.
Deadline 12th of February 2022
Information gathered before posting
I have taken into consideration some previous discussions around Kiez Burn population growth, to now open it again and decide whether we want to have another 1100 people event this year, or if we want to grow.
On this thread we discussed tickets prices, Kiez Burn popularity, freecampers cap and how can we approach more organic growth.
[Open Discussion] On popularity, organic growth, virgins, and inclusivity
I have also taken the results of the census 2021
( I've got to say I am surprised to see a 34% of new burners, since the last time I checked the results were 22% )
I have been present at the Kiez Burn retrospective in 2021 and have taken into consideration the challenges in 2021 in regards to LNT and strike, while we seem to have some lessons learned there.
-
Kiez Burn population growth thread from 2020 where we decided to grow on a 10% ( from 1000 to 1100)
People/roles most affected by this proposal or and with most acknowledge
We dont have all 2022 realizers so Im tagging those who are currently involved and those who I remember their handles, but of course, im open to hear new perspectives.
@Kris (tickets lead)
@Cairn (Clément) (2021 site management)
@CJ Yetman (Korg lead)
@Diarmaid (Dreams lead)
@Jan-Christian Kaspareit
@Cris
@Caro T
@Mareike
@Saskia
@Owl (Holger)
@Professor Kaos
@Franzi
@kathleen ( Finance realizer and Shatzmeisterin)
@Jan Thomas
The proposal
Background
This will be the 5th Kiez Burn event in history.
Since 2019, we have been planning a 1000-1100 participants event. While I am aware that we all as a community need to put in work to grow in a healthy and organic way, I believe it would possibly be a positive turn of events if we had more participants, therefore more tickets and liquidity to have more art on the playa (btw tickets price could be raised on a 20% - 30% not in this discussion).
It is my wish to make dreamers feel Kiez Burn welcomes their projects instead of the contrary. I believe that by having more population, and more money for art, in combination with a good tickets sales strategy that will somehow keep us away from the first come first served and, a cool art funding tool as it has been semi thought through and shared on this thread (Rethinking Dreams) we could have a very sweet burn. 🤗
The proposal
My proposal is to grow Kiez Burn population on a 25% ( off an 1100 participants cap we already had in place since the last advice process. In 2021 we had 1000 participants which had to do with pandemic restrictions)
After collecting input from those who participated in this thread, I reconsider my previous proposal and suggest a 10% growth.
We seem to feel more on the safe side when growing in small bits, giving time and space to community members to gain experience and participate more, in addition to all concerns in regards to site planning. Having a cap on 1200 participants seems to be reasonable.
What are the advantages of this proposal (relative to the current situation and/or counter-proposals)
As I see it, we could expand the community, welcome new inhabitants.
What are the disadvantages of this proposal (relative to the current situation and/or counter-proposals)
will be all a disaster? who knows!!!
Open questions
-
Will the site be too crowded? - Need input from site management
Answer to this question on this comment https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/reyAcw4o/do-we-want-to-grow-the-kiez-burn-population-in-2022-/8
-
will we have to pay for extra toilets? what is the capacity cap for Freiland?
Freiland gave us some numbers for their permit application in 2020 (1300 attendants planned). In terms of requirements most numbers stayed the same (security, medical service) – apart from more sanitary facilities (25 toilets, 10 Urinals – in 2021 we had ca. 20). With 1500 attendants, numbers can be higher and we'll have to check with the Amt...
Decision
Kris Thu 3 Feb 2022 1:22AM
A way to do this is to ask a few demographic questions during the ticket sale that everyone has to answer, then skew the survey using that. Even better do a random selection at gate and adjust using that.
199 self-selected people is hardly representative of anything.
Kris Thu 3 Feb 2022 1:24AM
200 random people out of 1000 yes, self-selected not so much.
CJ Yetman Thu 3 Feb 2022 9:38AM
Fair point…. or at least one can not be sure statistically that it is representative. It can be representative though.
Saskia Thu 3 Feb 2022 9:49AM
I wrote it very clearly in the presentation (link: https://create.piktochart.com/output/56560265-kiez-burn-census-2021-copy)
IDK how I can prevent people from not reading thoroughly. Not at all I guess. But would have saved this discussion here. ;)
TO SUMMARIZE:
199 participants and the census is NOT representative, as it is self-selected and biased. But it is as close as we can get unless we make mandatory surveys or invest a whole lot more time to randomize participants and set up a design.
I was also considering an on-site survey one of the days. Just to add a bit of intoxication to the mix and make it more useless. :*
Anyways, Please read the second slide. Here is a screenshot for your convenience: 
Cairn (Clément) Tue 1 Feb 2022 7:23AM
My main concern is space availability, since the overall size of the site was cut by roughly 1/3 last year. "Luckily" the site being more and more dry, this has made more space available to compensate for this.
- As Site Planning realiser in 2021, with around 750 people being part of camps in 2021, it was a real Tetris challenge to fit everyone on the site, and really time consuming to find an appropriate spot for each camp ( this could be mitigated with a less hands on approach, which could however mean more conflicts of territory)
- "Freiland gave us some numbers for their permit application in 2020 (1300 attendants planned)"
The change in the layout of the site happened in 2021 however, do we know how that impacted their numbers and how they are seeing their limit capacity in the future?
Taking into account that their setup is different from ours, camps taking more space than the classic festival setup (with all camping in one spot, and activities on other ones, anyone who went to their event last year can correct me if I'm wrong).
Another point, last year we had 34% new burners, and have seen with it some concerns regarding our principles and their use.
Growing further could likely make these problems stronger.
Taking this year to focus on growing as a community (quality) rather than growing the community (quantity) seems more important from my perspective.
If the consensus is that both are manageable in a healthy way for all involved, why not, I'm just not convinced of it personally 🙂
Veroca R. Sala Tue 1 Feb 2022 10:12AM
Thanks, dear Clément, I was really looking forward to your input from site planning.
Terrain: It was also my idea that many areas of the site were not appropriate for campers given the hills, ups, and downs in the terrain. Definitely a must to consider.
New Burners: I also worried about it. On the other hand, I trust that with a different tickets sales approach things will go different enabling more balance in this regard. But of course, that will be an experiment...it could all go in a different direction of what we think it will.
Freiland capacity cap: That is a very good point!, the 1300 participants cap was before they changed the layout making part of the Geläande unavailable. Maybe we need an update there @Kate or Annete, or Jan could possibly check on that?
Layout: after having made the layout and seeing all camps and installations on-site, would you say Clément, things could have been arranged differently to have more space/ better distribution? asking this because I know how different things look like once the Kieze are all settled up onsite. Maybe there were areas that could have been used differently to fit more camps or installations confortaby? What was your impression?
Overall, with the general feedback I slowly tend to think of going for no growth or, maybe 10%, and perhaps rely on a higher ticket price to have more liquidity for art, without compromising the layout.
Cris Thu 3 Feb 2022 3:24PM
A small note: Freiland has, as mentioned, no camps. Also people don't camp within the Festival area, but on top of each other in what it was our Parking and Monkeys Areal.
Cairn (Clément) Tue 8 Feb 2022 2:45PM
A bit late to answer this sorry.
Honestly in terms of layout, I did the best I could, and it was a tight fit. Going around the site during the event, people were camping in the oddest places, that were not even planned as camping initially but had to because of lack of space.
I am seriously concerned that growing in numbers will make having a nice layout a real challenge, or force people to sleep on the parking field, which seems to have been less than comfortable from the (albeit few) feedbacks I got of it.
Veroca R. Sala Tue 8 Feb 2022 4:04PM
If you think this proposal will be unviable please speak now. My interpretation from the given input is that generally, 1200 participants wouldn't mean a big risk and that a less hands-on approach would perhaps enable more space letting people find their spots plus the space being drier, im not sure i have interpreted correctly, could you please rephrase? thanks
CJ Yetman · Thu 3 Feb 2022 12:26AM
Technically speaking, a sample size of 200 for a population of 1000 is not too bad in terms confidence interval and margin of error. 👏🏻