To me june seems to be the most reasonable date. The late august date is too late to make a comfy event, it can get quite cold in the nights. And to organise KB during the summer, while everyone is out having fun doesn't sound fun and too pragmatic.

The july date would theoretically work better, aside from clashing with the bigger burns (no biggy for me, but for a lot of people), but it clashs with Fusion a bit (taking out the realizers for a week during an important phase) and it would still clash with the orga of Mars.

Since june also was the go-to date in previous discussions and in addidtion with the possibility of using some material after their festival, I would vote for the june date.

Advantages of doing it after the Wurzelfestival in june:

• a lot of fencing from Wurzelfestival can be used and doesn't need to be put up for the free camping on the airfield

• a lot of view blocking (Sichtschutz) are hanging on the fences already

• (big) garbage containers are already placed on site and can be used, so we would pay less money for trash (save the delivery)

• (scrap) wood and other material can be used for free from the pile of the Wurzels

• lamps don't need to be placed on site

• rental toilets can be taken over, which would save money (delivery and placement)

• other constructions or material (set up bars) might be usable

• hopefully, maybe the forest isn't completely dry yet, regarding the Brandschutzstufe

Generally speaking KB faces a huge challenge in 2024, which is also a huge opportunity. It will show how endurable and flexible our structures are. Combined with the storage move this will need a lot more energy, time and focus than in the previous years. We should use the above mentioned advantages to reduce the amount of work. There is a lot to do, and I would second the move to focus the energies on one endeavour and start with orga now already,

Mars apparently is a huge project in itself which needs more than an idea and a date. And there dosn't seem to be much more at the moment, 9 months before. In my opinion, KB should focus on the transfer from Freiland.

I am one of the people involved in the discussions about Burning Mars. It appears it will go forward but, as others have mentioned, there is a lot of work to do in a short amount of time. Since power and water are on site and the location has many events, that does make the orga a bit easier. The site manager and local community are also already on board. Cost estimates are already being gathered for key infrastructure.

I think the later dates for KB would allow both events to take place without making the Berlin burners have to choose between the two. Unfortunately, Burning Mars has only been given June dates to choose from and if those dates are not taken in 2024, then most likely the site will be lost for future years.

Later dates for KB also means that people are not having to choose between KB and other mid-summer events since they are all very close to each other.

As to the colder weather, I actually like cold nights where you can enjoy your faux furs and gather around fires. It also means the days are not brutally hot and you can sleep a bit during the day if you want/need to.

@AndyM is Burning Mars planning to happen with 1000+ participants or is downsizing for the first year an option? And do you know if the available dates of the Gelande will stay the same in future years (meaning, if Kiez Burn goes for the June dates will we have the same problem next year?)

Current discussions are for 1000 people. Smaller size had been discussed but the group appears to be leaning toward the 1000 mark. The dates will stay the same for subsequent years.

disclaimer: the 19-23 June date is a logistical nightmare for me for personal reasons, but I'm trying my best to stay unbiased

I would find it very sad if Kiez Burn dates forced two newer burns to cancel two years in a row. But this absolutely highlights the need of finding a permanent date for KB, so other events can plan around it. Whatever date we decide this year, we should think of its impact in the long term.

June has obvious advantages in terms of realiser energies and reduced workload (fences, toilets and trash will be up and running already from their previous event) which would save us money and time in an already expensive and tiring year. But if Burning Mars will continue in future years and June is their only option to keep the event running, I'm very afraid of seeing the Berlin burner community split in two. Hopefully Kiez Burn has enough energy to survive and thrive, but I would love to hear more from past realisers and big camps whether they think they would stay with Kiez Burn if there was a long-term overlap between the two.

side note - I have the feeling this advice process is not reaching many people - does the @everyone tag work?

Thanks for highlighting the need to get more input from realizers. Here is the FB group post to ping further :) https://www.facebook.com/groups/kiezburn/posts/3629335450646057/

Such a luxury to have several potential burn initiatives in Berlin, each with great locations! I agree with the sentiment here, that a more permanent date needs to be found, so to give new initiatives the space & opportunity to find their time in the calendar.

Given today's realities, here's how I see the potential Kiez Burn dates:

• Personally, I would like a middle-of-July date, but I'd miss all my friends who are frolicking off elsewhere in Europe around that time. So rather not end of July

• End of August/beginning of September: it is a nice time of the year to decompress from the summer. Typically people are less energetic & involved - I would anticipate much less participation from volunteers. I would think Kiez Burn becomes a different kind of event if it'd happen around this time (less burn more decom) and probably should have less people (less realizers = lower size).

• June: we have had an amazing experience with these dates, with volunteer % positions filled at >90% (at least in the first 2-3 years, back when we had so many "virgins"). Purely from the POV of Kiez Burn, as a local burn with ambition, this looks like a better match.

  • If this date is chosen, I think it would be good to have a final board-level check-in with Burning Mars if maybe there could not be a consensus reached after all - the Burning Mars vision to unite across communities + the site with lake, is worth the extra effort.

Hi Friends! Thanks Alex C and everyone for opening up the advice process so we can think this through together.

Here comes some background/development info:

Vision:

This project is not a one-off festivity; we hope to grow and come back in the next years around this time they give us. The idea of Burning Mars is to combine the personal and cultural interpretations of BRC under one roof in Germany, to make our communities meet with their structures and ways of communication in order to re-create a German and international affordable utopian landscape of the zeitgeist with our values we personally bring, i.e. the Vision is all YOURS!

Legal form/structure:

We had, amongst others, a discussion whether or not to create a new management structure or to use an existing one (Kick off meeting - thanks Waldo). We were in open communication but a bit many in the group because we tried to make everyone heard! Unfortunately, we didnt come to the conclusion of (slow) fusion about this in the aftermath of the presentation and the site visits to Secret Forest and Mars (yet).

So thus at the moment, it’s is probable that Mauersegler e.V. takes over the project with a holocratic approach. But: we could also have a meeting and maybe allocate tasks and manage the space with both structures or both associations for different duties, combining forces, whether or not this leads to a (slow) fusion or we just cooperate once and go back to what we do usually. It is all still possible!

Local authorities:

The F60 Management as well as the Amt are on our side to make this happen and need tons of info which we try to give them. Quite some specific info we leave blank for now. It is communicated to them that we can still change up to 100% of the info. We just need to hurry with default 2D mappings (thanks Jochen) and application forms so they get the feeling of security from us, so we can then discuss further and enter/change details and more.

Status of BM:

We started to outline the general needs and facilities (security fences, water, electricity, garbage, gate, (no) neighbors, (yes) fire etc) to give space to camps to chose and place themselves on the map, get them electricity etc. It’s a set roof structure for you to get wild with your existing structures and please more!

Budget & Size:

The idea was to calculate with 1000 pax. It can also be 500 or whatever we come up with. Security and some things need to be paid though which is not cheap so we need a certain number to break even in this little new not-for-profit project. Rent is cheap with 1k/production day. Ticket price for 5 days+ estimated at roughly 150€ tbc after we got all the info. It’s a bit flexible.

Storage:

On site and also in the next villages there’s several both open air and weather safe storage options for temporary and long use tbd. The Manager of Bergheider See is on it to help us.

Dates of Bergheider See/other festivals:

We went to Bergheider See for this project already last year to organize Burning Mars in 2023, but this didnt work due to Art Lake Festival RIP.

After waiting for 15 months, we were passively given the dates of mid-june, i.e. 12.-16.6.24 or 19.-23.6.24- ish.

We received this information 2 months ago and shared with Korg and others.

The dates of Burning Mars cannot be changed due to other activities at Bergheider See.

It would be smart, having in mind Fusion and Art Bär, to do Mars rather the WE of 15.6. This is also a decision of the Amt though which we believe we can get quickly.

So what do we do?

It is incredibly important that we feel good together as a team, whatever we decide.

If BM shall be big, we need the support from KB friends for them to entirely decide what and how they support.

Re Mars: we cannot change the dates from June to another month. We may lose this ridiculously amazing site forever if we don’t act now. It is the most beautiful festival site I’ve ever seen in Germany. We would already have moved due to the advantageous dates of KB in June (storage, Wurzel-facility-sharing etc) if we would have the possibility. We still hope that we can combine existing structures with all love and respect for each other incl., of course, the beauty of KB.

Having two gatherings in June would be a disaster, both internally in Germany and embarrassing on an international level. We could have two small gatherings e.g. 1,2 months or less apart, we could also talk and make both of us or just us smaller if that helps. If people decide to make both big or if there’s other new concerns there is only one option:

If there is no way out, we will cancel Burning Mars.

Love,

G

@Gregor Sohn what do you mean with combining existing structures? I feel like doing Burning Mars and Kiez Burn together at Begheider See could have been a very interesting proposition to think about if it came months ago, when KB was in the middle of location scouting - but now after confirming Secret Forest and 9 moths before the event it seems really hard to entertain.

I also feel like two big burns in the Berlin area will eventually drain each other out, even if they are a month or two apart - and it's a big ask for Kiez Burn to downsize to let Burning Mars happen. Definitively feels like a huge shame to lose Begheider See, but it also feels unfair for Kiez Burn to lose the dates it's been trying to get back to since years - especially now, with all the extra work that the storage move and everything else will cause.

Not really sure how to get out of this situation without leaving one or both burns out of resources and with a bad feeling. :(

Last suggestion, how would Burning Mars feel about starting small for a year, as small as it can be to keep the site and test the waters, and then next year we can discuss further with more time at hand and some experience with both sites how the synergy between KB and BM could work? I feel like this would be necessary to keep the two events running this year, even if Kiez Burn was in August there is just not enough realiser power in the Berlin bubble to make two big events happen.

Last note re future growth: the site is endlessly big!