Sun 24 Sep 2023 6:44PM

(DECISION MADE) When do we hold Kiez Burn 2024?

AK Alex Kaos Public Seen by 70


Proposer (name, handle, etc.):

@Alex Kaos


Proposer’s role:

Upcoming Schatzmeister of the Verein and Finance Lead for KB 2024 (if KB is held in June. Otherwise I'm just a dreamer)

Comms Lead/Site Scouting Team member/Potentially upcoming Boardie 2024

The advice process

  • Advice Process ending date: 22.10.2023

People/roles most affected by this proposal

  • Potnetially Upcoming Boardies: @Natacha Kromatik, @Kaliope, @Bee , @Sadie @Chiara

  • Potnetial Core Realizers: @Sven Dudink, @Patsy McDowell , @Kaylin , @Martin K , @Diarmaid, @Olivia khan-Do, @Purzel, @Ale , @Kris , @Jan Thomas , @Hanna-Maija (Animal) (incomplete list, please add)

  • Camp Leads: @Cris , @Caro T , @Jaina Hirai, @Henrik 🤖 (incomplete list, please add)

  • The current drivers of Burning Mars: Gregor, Alex, Andy, and others (not on Talk, please invite them if you can)

  • Organizers of Art Bär: @Owl (others?)

  • @Everyone

People/roles with the most knowledge and experience relevant to this proposal:

  • Ex-Boardies and Advisors: @CJ Yetman , @walto , @Franzi , @Hanna-Maija (Animal) (incomplete list)

The proposal


We have just completed the camp out at one of the new potential locations for Kiez Burn 2024, Secret Forest. The Site Finding team met afterwards and voted unanimously (8/8) that we should move to the new site. We're moving to Secret Forest! Yipeee!

  • The new site is ca 1 hour from (northern) Berlin.

  • Is a mix of airfield, forest and curious corners. Everyone loved the site on the visit.

  • We will be the 3rd cultural event on the site. Only 3 cultural events in the year.

  • Secret Forest (Würzeln festival) own the site, and are aligned with us in many ways, and are looking for a long-term partner.

  • We can easily grow to 10,000 participants, if we want to

  • They have water and electrictiy on site :)

This means that the dates of Kiez Burn are back in question. Previously our advice process (and practice before that) was to host KB in late June, on the soltice. This has many practical reasons:

  • Doesn't clash with other European Burns are large local events (i.e Fusion)

  • There is plenty of excitment and organizational energy at the start of summer that can get funnelled into the event, and then afterwards we can enjoy the summer without responsabilites (unless you're finance lead....)

  • The days are long and often warmer than May.

As part of a site move, we also have to move the ENTIRE KIEZ BURN STORAGE:

  • over 100m³ (2 large trucks) of materials, less than half of which belongs to KB ( the rest is kieze)

  • ~3 hours drive north, load, then 4 hours drive south, unload.

  • The storage situation is complicated, so camps will need to be planning to downsize their storage expectations from now now. The current proposed solutions are gonna need some extra work - we will need to start the weekend before build, which will make KB a 3-weekend experience for those who are most involved and giving the most time (core realizers/big camps/board)..

The proposal

The available date ranges at the new site are:

  • 14. june - 3. july (Viable event dates are 19.6-23.6)

  • 18 july - 8. august (Viable event dates are 31.7 - 4.8)

  • 27. august - september

All of these could work in theory. The only question is the most valuable resource of all: Realizer Energy.

September is less busy but a little colder, and comes at the tail end of a hectic and often exhausting summer. Do we want to be in full organizational mode in August/September?

July clashes with Borderland and Nowhere, which are established burns and absorb a large number of active burners.

August was ok but problematic, we had major problems with realizer recruitment, everyone was very busy, the event clashes with many other non-Burns. The general sentiment seemed to be that a June event is better for the Realizers.

26-30 June is the Fusion weekend and shortly before Nowhere.

So in conclusion, June 19-23 are the best dates for Kiez Burn, with the storage move starting around the 9. If what matters most to Kiez Burn is Kiez Burn, and the resources of the realizers that will make it happen.

There is potential plans for another Burn in June, Burning Mars. They have secured the Feel site (about about 40 mins further south), and were planning to run in late June. Burning Mars would be a new event, in which the burners organizing are hoping to have 1000 participants. Currently there is an unconfirmed possibility to use the Mauersegler e.V. as a legal form, and otherwise there is no structures, plans or confirmed realizers. End of June is the only possible date for this event to run, at the Feel site. And there are concerns that if they pass up this year, that they may lose the opportunity to use the site at all in the future. After speaking with Gregor, we both also believe that Berlin cannot manage 2 large burns in late June.

There is another event, Art Bär, occuring in the 19-23 weekend, with much smaller number of participants and a different focus. The overlap shouldn't negativley impact the energetical requirement of both events. But it calls into question whether we prefer a direct overlap with a small burn (Art Baer 19-23) or with a huge festival (Fusion 26-30).


Expected (but unconfirmed) Nowhere Dates: Build from the 5th July, event from 10-14th July

Borderland, expected end of July, very highly unlikely to cross-over with Nowhere, so probably : 21-28 July

This could mean that if we choose the August dates (~1-4 August) then our build (from 26 July) would cross-over with Borderland itself.

Both of these events could select the weekend before these dates. If they don't, then our August dates would definitely clash with Borderland. Something to be considered in the decision.

So it seems that question we need advice on is:

Is it worth it for Kiez Burn to move away from it's original, optimum and prefered date, to support a new local Burn in securing this particular site? Or what other variations are actually possible?

  • Kiez Burn shrinking down for a year

  • Mars being low-key for the first year

  • Cancelling Kiez Burn and pouring our energy into Mars

  • Keeping the Mars visionaries a part of Kiez Burn (which would be the default)

Constructive advice from all is welcome. We are particularily interested in the realizers and camp leads that are considering being a part of KB next year, and your thoughts on the matter, as you will be carrying the workload of the both the move and running of the KB event.

Who would implement this proposal

The Site FInding team in conjunction with the current and upcoming board

What would be the cost (time, money, effort, etc.) of this proposal

If we do KB in June, then we will have a lot more energy and focus to do the move and event. But June is tomorrow, so we need to start planning NOW.

If we do it in August, it will be much more challenging, organizationally, emotionally and physically.

The objective workload that needs to happen is the same in either case. It's just a question of realizer and camp's availabilty.

What are the advantages of this proposal (relative to the current situation and/or counter-proposals)

Kiez Burn goes back to the dates we love, and have extra energy for the move. We also get to enjoy the entire summer without having to look at discord or spreadsheets (except for recreational use of course)

What are the disadvantages of this proposal (relative to the current situation and/or counter-proposals)

Burning Mars might lose access to the Feel site permenantly. In which case it will need to find another gelände.

2 Big burn events end up competing for realizers and burning out the burners of berlin.

When is the decision being made?

By October 22nd


So, it is past October the 22nd, and so this advice process has come to an end.

Dates to choose between:

19-23 - June

31.7 - 4.8 - August

(These dates are the ones that have the least clash with Nowhere, Borderland, Fusion and Burning Man)

After speaking with most individuals that intend on taking on a realizer role for KB24, it is quite clear that there is a clear preference to hold the event on the June dates

Overview of 'votes';

June - 15

August - 5

No Preference - 4

Please note, that these preferences come with mixed range of personal preference (least valid element), practical organizational benefits (important), and capacity to realize based on the date (most important).

The benefits for June 👍

1. Earlier in the summer, and so realizers and volunteers have higher energy and concentration on the KB event (and are subsequently released from duty after strike)

2. Ability to share resources with the Secret Forest after their event (Rubbish containers, toilets, water systems, power, fence screening etc etc)

3. Not clashing with a large established European Burn (Borderland, which will likely be on the build dates for August)

The benefits for August 👍

- One month longer to plan. This is potentially outweighed by point 1 above

- Longer nights for blinkedy blinkedy (as an LED and Fire artist, this one I personally resonate with heavily)

- It would make Mars's establishment easier for this first year, next year they plan to move to August dates

Topics advised to remove from the decision process

- I agree with the advice that the weather is too unpredictable to give preference to either date.

- Our most likely move mission will be done in the spring period, and so has minimal effect on the dates choice.

- Burning Mars. Kiez Burners advised to make the date decision independently of unestablished projects, even if it is closely related in culture and community, and we support from that angle. So we should choose the best dates for KB, and allow other projects to also operate independantly.

As such I believe we have the best decision we could make under the circumstances!

🎉Kiez Burn should be held on it's original dates, the weekend of the 19-23 June🎉

In the interest of transparency, I am certain that this is not the perfect solution to make such a big decision, and there is never a decision that can satisfy everyone at this scale, but of the alternative methods proposed throughout the process, this seemed like the best way to go about it:

- Gathers the pros and cons for all to see and understand

- Allow the engaged realizers of KB24 to guide the decision by vote

I am personally very interested in alternative methods of decision making that might be applied for our meta-decisions (decisions that include everyone/many), please feel free to share any resources you might have here for reference. The Advice Process has many advantages, and many flaws, but we can always look to improve how we function as an event and community.

Thank you everyone who partook in this process for your time, attention, patience, deliberate advice, excellent online conduct and love for our event and community.

❤️ See you at our New Home ❤️


Olivia khan-Do Mon 25 Sep 2023 9:21AM

Thank you for taking the time to write this 🙂

I am curious if there could be a more explicit checking of commitments - filling event-critical roles, Board members and camp buy-in before a commitment to venue and proposed date. Or/and see if so many community members would commit to Kiez Burn 2024 - 100 sign ups from folks who are somewhat invested. A good way of gauging interest? shrugs

I was going to write an Advice Process suggesting to keep Kiez Burn at 600 attendees max this year. I think the the values and direction of the community are unclear and think starting at a new location, as a small core group would be a good way of clarifying this. I have lost energy for this advice process so far. But I think Mars is another big reason to have a smaller Kiez Burn. It's a great opportunity to take a step-back and see if something else Khan take up some space and make something cool for Berlin and German burners 🍒


Alex Kaos Fri 29 Sep 2023 1:43PM

@Olivia khan-Do So we already have more highly-competent candidates for the board that positions, and most of the critical realizer roles are filled (site leads, rangers, power, lights, toilets, fire, finance etc). We've never been in a stronger position with motivated individuals that want to shape a new future for KB. I would argue this is the best time to keep moving forward as we are, and overcome the challanges that we faced with no-show volunteers last year (which were more due to us being in the middle of summer than a lack of vision imo)

Item removed


CJ Yetman Mon 25 Sep 2023 10:01AM

In my personal opinion, Burning Mars is, so far, just an idea. It is uncertain and unclear. Kiez Burn is an existing structure, and even with all its problems and failures, it is proven to be capable of pulling it off. I’d rather put all our eggs in that basket than something that doesn’t actually exist yet. Let Mars figure itself out, and only after should Kiez Burn start asking existential questions based on what Mars is doing.


Kaliope Mon 25 Sep 2023 10:46AM

Side topic:

We need YOU to make another fantastic Kiez Burn happen! If you already know what roles and responsibilities you're interested in, add your name here (so that we have an idea of who some of our core realizers might be).

Since the two things are interrelated and the great importance of realizer energy was mentioned here, as well as filling event-critical roles, this advice process inspired me to create a new wiki document...

Let's get started as early as possible – we have many exciting plans for this year :)


Hanna-Maija (Animal) Mon 25 Sep 2023 2:30PM

I think end of August/ beginning of September would be amazing date! Reasons:

  • The nights are longer and at least based on the previous years experience a lot warmer than in June. June weather is damn unpredictable. Darker nights are great for art/lights!!

  • There is no overlapping burn events. Especially no 2 other overlapping burn events in the same Berlin area! No matter if these events are going to become a yearly thing or be successful I think forcing ppl to choose is not necessary when we have other options for the KB date.

  • If Mars will happen these 3 burns will be competing from the same realisers and participants.

  • This date has the potential to finally be locked as THE Kiez Burn date that could be sustained.

  • People like me would have energy to perhaps go and visit Nowhere or Borderland when they are not too close to KB. Also other summer activities like visiting family would be less taxing when 4 weeks of the high summer is not reserved for KB and recovering from it.

  • Also: for personal reasons the suggested June date won't work for me in any case. This would have an effect on both BVG kiez (BVG would not make it) and the Harlots (my contribution would fall off), the RAD (I would not do RAD next year) and on whatever else I would like to contribute in 2024.


selkiefae Tue 26 Sep 2023 9:20AM

@Hanna-Maija (Animal)

Regards to the temperature aspect: I've been on end of August Festivals multiple years in a row now and once the sun got down it was immediately really really cold

So I would have suggested July or early August as ideal time for long days and temperature (and the June slot based on the other factors like storage and other burns especially since the June slot is also closer to July while the mean temp in September is already colder than the mean temp (and min max) in june

Kinda curious how this perspective differs here. I suppose this year specifically I was on a veeeery cold festival end of August so rn it is a big factor for me haha


Henrik 🤖 Mon 25 Sep 2023 8:58PM

Thanks for moving things forward!

I think we should make Maulsack e.V. a reality to unify Burning Mars, Kiez Burn, Hamburn and all other Event-Communities around Mauersegler e.V. plus all Burns of the nothern hemisphere. The purpose is to change location every six month so we can have a Winter-Burn in Africa and a Summer-Burn in Sweden. I already have logo ready for us:


Natacha Kromatik Tue 26 Sep 2023 11:53AM

I would tend towards June, and I'm already in a perspective to start NOW. I experienced the struggle of being unterwegs during Summer and having to follow KB orga.. not optimal!! I also don't picture the move of the storage happening in the middle of Summer.

Moreover, having our event right after Wurzel would make the build slightly easier (fencing!), which we cannot neglect for a first build in this location.

About Burning Mars: It took us 2 hours of 30 people chatting during the kickoff weekend + an advice process to decide for KB23 dates, and I find it quite daring of their orga to decide for a date without more collective feedback - doesn't make me feel like adapting to plans made unilaterally. As a side note, the choice of KB23 dates led us to cancel the Rebirth, which is a smaller Burn than what Mars wants to become, but was way more advanced in the orga.


Agata Tue 26 Sep 2023 2:54PM

I believe proposed June date is the only realistic option. Personally wouldn't mind August but I understand why people wouldn't want that. June 19-23 is still feasible to combine with Nowhere (word is 9-14 July is most likely date). Especially this year, as we have to move storage, June would be better than August as it is probably not very realistic to expect that many people be available for 3 weekends in a row in the middle of festival season.

As to Burning Mars, as far as I understand there is not much set orga-wise. If they plan for June date they probably should start preparing now (just as we should if we want to have the burn in June) - and it's considerably more work to establish a burn than to make another edition. Therefore I agree with CJ - we should probably not count on it too much as of now.

Side note: is Burning Mars even advertised yet? Because i.e. Frankfurt people don't seem to know much about it (might be I talked to wrong people but at least orga of Frankfurt Decom had no idea). As far as I understand it's counting on uniting German burns. I wish their Orga all best but it seems like a very very ambitious project if it's supposed to happen in June 24.

It would also probably be interesting to see how many KB people actually plan to go to Burning Mars as two burns will compete for participants and, most importantly, people involved in orga. Or how many KB big camps plan to go there instead of KB.

All in all: as there is a limited number of summer dates, there will always be conflicts. Just as Natacha, I was in Rebirth Orga and this year we bit the bullet and cancelled the event altogether as there was a clash with KB dates. I believe as of now Burning Mars is a bit too uncertain to justify moving KB (btw, proposed June dates are close to original Kiez Burn dates) - at least in my eyes it's less of a factor than Nowhere or Borderland which are huge and established or our own feelings about distribution of workload during summer.

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