SITE LIAISON – Freiland & Ämter

generally speaking, I agree with you @Roko, but for instance, take a look at @Jan Thomas comment above...

My view is that 2019 showed that the "responsible hippie" approach is not working - the hippies might be responsible when sober, but the reality each night was that it required something like a "sound police" to turn off sounds systems again (because somebody decided they felt like playing tunes to no-one at 2am, at a place directly next to a quiet zone where there shouldn't even have been a sound system in the first place), or to turn down bigger systems at major soundcamps (because the DJ while being in the zone started turning up the volume).

Thanks for all the info.

I'm curious about the potential purchase of a device / technology to limit the sound?

Im only thinking how come we have to spend money on things like that just because the ppl in our own community is not being responsible enough and will put all at risk by turning up the volume.

I dont think I support that approach to the problem were the community is paying for just of couple of noughty hippies...

I want to believe we are all adults and we care for the efforts we all do to make the event happen and keep good relationships with Freiland and the village. It is not so educational in my point of view. With that then we could also pay cleaners don't have to clean the site (?) May be a bit extreme example as LNT is in our principles...

Why don't just limit the type of sound system itself. If bigger soundsystem were not allowed onsite then no chance to turn the volume up (?)

On the other hand I don't think I can even take part of a sound team controlling this. So those are my 2 cents.

Hi I haven't received it yet!?

Gotchya.

Just send it now in case you didn´t receive it yet!

I'm agreeing with Jan here; based on what I've seen at Burning Nest and Afrikaburn, sound guidelines require some amount of enforcement from Orga and/or Rangers (and if not, the event may be shut down by police and/or be unable to return to this site next year). That's just like how moop removal is everyone's personal responsibility... and most burns still have a decidated volunteer shift, to do moop sweeps for what people missed.

Hypothetically, I like the idea of using limiters. But practically speaking, I’m not sure if it’s reasonable/feasible for KB to purchase limiters and then insert them into whatever sound system a camp brings. I would guess the limiters need to be appropriate for the system they’re being put into. And that’s before you get to properly using them. They’re not a magical bullet... someone with knowledge will have to set it up and tune it properly for the intended purpose. I’m not saying limiters are exceptionally complicated gear, but it’s not nothing either.

not much there, but here's Nowhere's sound policy FAQ (interestingly, asking sound camps to use a limiter if they have more than 1k sounds system)
https://www.goingnowhere.org/faq/#soundfaq

also agree to make sound camps more responsible and take care of dj's that might start tweaking the amp. volume rules should be included in all dj applications to share responsibility. quite zones can be controlled by rangers. i like that approach.

i perceived the "sound police" as a military coup started by some revolting neighbours putting pressure on freiland putting pressure on kborga putting pressure on individuals putting pressure on soundcamps. to not let this happen again, we need clear communication between kborga and soundcamp leads (at least 3 responsible people that know the soundsystem) and work out an action-plan like:
if freiburn calls 1 time, soundcamp lead turns it down -3db.
if they call a 2nd time, soundcamp lead turns it down -6db.
if they call a 3rd time, we go -10db.
if they call a 4th time, we go -15db.

if the soundcamp does not act upon this plan, kb orga kills electricity.
if a quite zone camp does sound in the middle of the night, kill electricity etc."

we should just be respectful with "enforcement and police" and reduce states of pressure and haste.

I think most people here agree with "make sound camps more responsible"... the question is how to do that effectively? How would the Site Leads reliably contact the sound leads from every sound camp at 2am when they get a complaint? How would the Site Leads verify if the sound camps complied in order to determine if they should cut the power? What if a sound camp has their own power supply? Not arguing, just saying... there's a lot of difficulties and uncertainties about making a plan that's actually achievable in reality. (I'm literally writing the handbook for the Site Leads, which is why I'm keenly interested in this topic.)

I'm not 100% sure, but my impression is that they use the same areas that Zerzura and Underworld used in previous years, but not any other areas with loud amplified music. Based on pictures on their social media and Google Maps satellite images, it looks like both their stages point East-South (for the Zerzura stage area, that means away from the pond). That makes sense based on my familiarity with the surrounding area.

In 2019 saturday night was a little critical due to complaints on the earlier days. I was site lead that night and cycled a lot between sound camps around midnight to check and calibrate sound levels together with the other Jan. Sound camps were actually pretty understanding.

I think what would help is to find out the sound spillage the first days to be able to check the volume in some defined spots on site without walking around too much.

Since I'm a tech person: wouldn't it be useful to set up/create sound level measurement devices to send warnings if sound travels into the directions of the neighbors? Not necessarily officially calibrated devices, but just indicators for us that something had become too loud in one of the directions?

I did some research into building some devices that could continually monitor sound at various locations and periodically send that data back to a central point. It wouldn't be cheap, but probably doable. My main concern was that an SPL monitor needs to be calibrated or otherwise it's practically meaningless... but you raise a good point, if you're monitoring continuously you can at least get information out of relative fluctuations, which could be very useful.

Thanks Kate for the feedback from the call with Freiland :)

The way I see the sound concept is in 2 parts:

1/ The 'Protocol', defining basically where, when and how loud do we play music during that week.

2/ How do concretely apply that protocol before and during the event.

If I understand you well, 1/ should be done rather soon, in order to move the wheels with Freiland and the permit topic.

My idea is to have some exchange with sound camps leads, gather all feedbacks from last year discussion and from the survey, align with Site liaison team & Site planning team. Then, make a proposal on Talk that the community can discuss, and come to a final draft by end of Feb/begginning of March.

Would that be good for you timewise?

It would be good to keep it as a draft, with some big principles already agreed at this stage, but keeping it flexible enough in order to finalize it when the whole community and Kiez leads really start to get into planning mode.

I believe the 2/ can be treated at a later stage, when we get closer to the event and start to be more concrete. (The event is still in more than 6 months :))

If anyone wanna support that process, please reach out :)

i know what you mean and i read that, but 2019 sound concerns were not that much discussed like this time. i did the sound checks with waldo before the burn started 2019 and some smaller sound camps did not show that they grasp the importance of shooting full power of sound on my command (felt like i had to push them).
that's why i think: if we make it really really clear that sound permissions are only granted for people who try to play the rules, they will play the rules. same for dj's. they need to know that the sound lead of their camp controls volume, no one else.

i hope we find solutions. if someone wants to propose a police concept, do it. :D i am more for upfront strict communication, if someone wants to have music.


btw. what is the general approach of handling people that act against principles?

Don't get me wrong... I much prefer the self-regulation versus the sound-police concept. But as the lead of the Site Leads I am 1. reasonably skeptical of the effectiveness of both, and 2. doing my best to look out for those that volunteer for a Site Lead shift by trying to minimize the chance they're gonna have a disastrous shift, e.g. talking to the police on one end, and wandering around site trying to find the responsible person for each sound camp, etc., etc.

The safety protocols (which will hopefully get updated this year) have a protocol for problematic participants... I guess someone refusing to follow the sound protocols might warrant that approach eventually.

Sure, it will all be in the KBorg 2021 folder (the application for permit is already there). We let you know when everything is finalized. Do you want/need a deadline for it?

We talked about this with Eric. The only way to make it legal/safe is to have dedicated lifeguards... officially people aren't even allowed to go swimming there.

Nope I don't haver the contact, you will want to contact @Natacha Kromatik, who managed it for the Summer camp and is overseeing the Korg rental of the tents

I will call the guy next week and give an update about this.

I arranged it last time. It is the smithman of the village and the tents are most probably at the castle. The also rent Bierbänke & Biertische. I will not organise it this time, but it is an easy job to contact him and figure out the transport. UnderWorld will not take one of the tents this year.

Already aligned about it with @Natacha Kromatik - we have already called the guy and confirmed that we have the tents again.

yey! this was fast, we just talked about it yesterday in KORG! any use for the tent yet? Gate would be interested to provide shade for volunteers (and waiting people) ⛅

There are 3 tents of same size/dimensions - and yes I understand Natacha indicated that one is for gate, Kinderkiez has been renting one for the past years and wants one again - which leaves one tent for another use.

perfect! thanks Jan and Natacha!

It's on the list of things we've agreed with them where we'll likely follow their approach. In previous years they had grey water trailers from a local farmer and it wasn't confirmed yet that this will happen again - but it's the preferred solution. This means we'd be ordering a pump-out of these which can be done with a few weeks notice from GKU (local water body, who we also pay for our fresh water connection).

Site tour is always great.

I second CJ's concerned about letting local randoms on site. Escorting them around the site seems like a time-intensive commitment. Having said that, them randomly being on site is much worse than us saying, "Ok we'll give you a half hour tour". What do we do if they decide to slip away from the Ranger and just join in the Burn?

I think the letterbox dropping is great actually. It may prime the handful that can't wait to drop a complaint, but imo they are completely unappeasable. Gaining the support of the remaining fence-sitters by inviting them around officially is the best way to improve our 'netto' relations with the locals.

(Who paid for previous letterbox dropping costs, printing + paper etc? It's not in the budget! I think that's a valid KB expense)

It does feel strange to me to just let villagers in whenever they feel like it, but I still would agree to rather be extra nice to them than having to start a discussion with them at the gate and potentially leaving them even more annoyed. We could say something like "well uuuuuusually we don't let people in, but you seem super nice and friendly so wait a sec until one of our rangers can give you a quick tour". I do vote for not letting them in alone but calling the rangers or even just a burner who is around and willing to do it (I remember in 2018 this happened and one Monkey showed the villager around and had a nice talk with him until he left again). Letters and site tour sound great to me!🙂

Thanks Kate & Quentin! Yeah totally agree that we don't need #2 at this point - and even for #1 this is not just up to us, but something that we also get strict guidelines for from the Amt. Attached is what these guidelines were in 2019 - please note that these values apply at the surrounding villages, i.e. at the place where someone might be disturbed by our event. This is incredibly volatile as it changes all the time with weather & wind, so it would probably make sense to still established some fixed guidelines of what noise level we want to allow at our stages - and possibly even put a physical limitation in place like a limiter on the system, which prevents anyone from turning it up more when in the mood. This was an issue in 2019 - and there was also interest from KiezBurn e.V. to invest into technology if necessary and if it allows us to run the event without needing a team of people to be constantly measuring sounds and turning things down during the event. Lots to discuss and figure out here ;-)

Thanks Jan for sharing those limits from the Amt.
Although, what I understood from 2019 experience was that those limits were kind of respected but still neighbours (and some community members) were unhappy with the sound level. They are good anchors to follow, but probably no the final guidelines.

I agree with Veroca and I don't really support the idea of implementing limiters. I don't believe in restrictions in general. Limiting type of sound system would also imply a huge compromise in terms of sound quality (different than volume) and would really arm the experience for a lot of people.

I reckon that making sound camps more responsible is the way to go. If we agree on time and dB guidelines together beforehand, this is in the interest of all that those are followed.
Responsible hippies <3

My view is that 2019 showed that the "responsible hippie" approach is not working - the hippies might be responsible when sober, but the reality each night was that it required something like a "sound police" to turn off sounds systems again (because somebody decided they felt like playing tunes to no-one at 2am, at a place directly next to a quiet zone where there shouldn't even have been a sound system in the first place), or to turn down bigger systems at major soundcamps (because the DJ while being in the zone started turning up the volume). Overall I don't see a major issue with sticking to the times though, as long as we ensure systems are only getting placed in designated loud zones...

The site lead and ranger team will make sure that everything turns off during agreed quite times, plus no-one will have DJs scheduled for these times anyways. But I am concerned about how to stick to the volume levels. Agree that we shouldn't limit the type of system as that can really affect sound quality and experience - but I'm not sure what would speak against limiters? It's a common approach used by many festivals to deal with this exact problem. I would suggest to discuss this more - probably best in person. Maybe we could set a call sometime soon between sound group and site liaison group to discuss?

You're totally right in that the dB limits from the Amt are only one part, it might be good to establish a dB limit that we agree on and that can be checked on location at the soundcamp?

We'll need to check whether the extinguishers we have are still valid - they expire after a couple of years. Hence Freiland's suggestion to purchase new ones that get shared across a bunch of events makes a lot of sense.

I'm not sure if extinguishers are like food and can only be thrown away after a certain time. I think they can get overhauled and tested, and can get a new validity sign. But I don't know if that is a pricey process (compared to share new ones with Freiland) or not.

Added link to this comment on the description of this thread.

Added link to this comment on the description of this thread.

Mental note: update Ranger Manual with the decisions and needs from the Sound Guidelines @Jessie

effectively making sound camps responsible starts by clear communication of the situation at hand. as i said, also informing every dj about it etc. this will already help in the handbook! thx for writing.
about controlling: ... don't know if we will find a solution thinking in this direction. radical self reliance and civic responsibility can go huge ways. and if people don't listen to what kborg communicates, it's fucked up in the first place. maybe only permit a loud-zone space, if sound-leads actively take note of the situation and give the kborg a short concept of how they handle this?

@Jan Thomas since this needs to be resolved in the next 4 days, can you take a look at these dreams and make a quick assessment whether or not they will be problematic for Freiland

I guess about 10 days before the event?

https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/7FQ4Wirk/swimming-in-the-lake-how-can-we-make-this-happen-call-out-for-lifeguards

Related.

I understand the shower containers will dispose there? Because I saw a very very suspicious pipe going quite high from the container close to the Palace directly to the Süsskiez area, as in a nasty shower-like situation (and underneath there were stones and stuff, not grass and soil)

Would add this to the Freiland Fest Check list.

Nevertheless, Kieze (small) Greywaters last time were being disposed directly on the ground, with the specifications of only bio-degradable soaps, yadadadá.

In the past, a container truck was parked in Süsskiez and that pipe emptied into the truck, which by the way had to be moved once during the event.

• site tour: 100% support this initiative and I think it's cool. I would not subject these people to a covid test, assuming they're entering and touring the site together as a group and not entering a small enclosed areas. I would suggest, as I will to the Site Leads, that any contact with external people we should do with a mask on, at least initially.

• notes in letterboxes: in principal I think this is good, though given the situation with some neighbors who seem to want to complain no matter what we do, does this not just give them a heads up so they're even more primed to complain? If you believe this has a positive effect on the "other" neighbors, than I guess it's worth it.

• random locals coming on-site: How does Eric feel about random locals feeling entitled to come on to his private property at any time? Does he agree with that / support that? While from a totally pragmatic perspective, it doesn't make much sense to cause a scene at the gate with them about not coming in when they can easily walk 100 meters to one side and enter the site unofficially, however... I believe we do have some obligation to the participants to keep them safe from rando neighbors popping out from the trees in the middle of their naked yoga session etc., so.... Could an in-between maybe be that we have a prepared statement for Security and Gate that they can read to them or hand them a printed copy of that gives a friendly but stern explanation of why we'd prefer that they not come on-site because it's a private event where the participants have an expectation of privacy... yada-yada? I mean, if Eric rented the place out for a wedding reception, would they also insist that they're entitled to join, eat the cake, have some cocktails, etc.?

Thank you, Jan, for bringing this up!

• I love the letter idea! That way we are talking to them directly and communicating we are addressing their concerns, appreciate their feedback and complaints, and try our best to meet their needs.

• I'm hesitant about letting any rando in, just because they show up. Maybe they are great curious people, but maybe they are drugged countryside ravers. We encountered one of those, when we visied Freiland fest. Sweet guy, but with a very few info about consent. Also 2 local ravers appeared last weekend in Might Burn. No problem at all (afaik) but creepy as fak.

  I share CJ concerns and wedding (private event) example, but also trust your decision and the prevoius year's experiences.

  In Any case, Gate (@Mareike) should be aware of the official way of dealing with this.

• Tour is great! Would it work to invite the random ravers to the tour instead of just letting them in?

  @Jessie would you pls communicate rangers about whatever is decided here?

When attending other (mostly big) psy trance Festival they usually had the police to give all surrounding villages free entrance. Given that we want to create a more intimate space, I like the proposal above.

Please make sure to reach out to me with the decision so I can communicate it to security. 😊

Thanks for your input everyone! There's some opposing opinions, but considering the fact that they might want to enter the site in secret and roam around without any guidance, I think it's reasonable to say:

• We'll send out invitations for a guided tour on Saturday, 2 pm.

• In case someone from the local neighborhood shows up (apart from Saturday, 2 pm), it's ok to let them inside (even without a corona test – we should only make sure that a ranger or someone else can guide them: "well uuuuuusually we don't let people in, but you seem super nice and friendly so wait a sec until one of our rangers can give you a quick tour")

• Our experience shows that they will try to enter the site themselves if they really want to anyway – better to accompany them and to explain how all of this works -> we have more control of the situation 🙂

• We don't expect so many locals to show up spontaneously, only a few.
  
  @Jan Thomas @Jessie @CJ Yetman @Purzel

Ugh, ok. I think this is a delicate enough situation that I would prefer that any time a neighbor arrives wanting to come on-site and doesn’t immediately turn around and walk away after a friendly “this is a private, ticketed event, following a strict covid testing policy” then the Site Lead should be called immediately to support. Also, during any contact with neighbors, any KB-related person should immediately wear a mask, preferably before you/they approach (except under a very specific, temporary decision if the Site Lead believes it will be easier to establish a friendly dialogue if they see your face first).

I'll communicate it to the security

Do we have a final Decision about letting neighbors on site (at any time), yet? I would like to pass the Information to the Rangers before Friday :-)
I like the Idea of putting Notes in Letterboxes and also the Site-Tour is a great Idea. But I'm concerned about giving Neighbours (guided) access all the time.

We've had another call with Freiland and have been thinking and discussing about how to best liaise with the locals/neighbors, and are proposing the following:

• Allowing random locals to access the site - We learned in past years that the policy of not allowing neighbors to access the site is not working out well. Anybody who knows the site also knows how to get on, so if someone comes and wants to have a look they will find their way in anyways, and is pissed off because we didn't let them in but then roams by themselves. Instead for this year we would suggest to be more welcoming, invite them in but try to have the site lead or rangers accompany them and tell them something about our culture, principles etc - i.e. try to turn this into a positive experience for them rather than blocking them out. Ultimately this is also how we ended up making friends with other locals in previous years who've been great at supporting us since.

  • Covid-Safety for this: It's a valid question whether we would need to ask them to take our free covid test - but as we're legally not required to do this I don't think we should, as it would very likely kill the intention of being welcoming if we subject them to this 30 min procedure which is likely longer than they would spend on site. As long as they don't mingle with people inside closed spaces but just walk around i think it's fine. Otherwise they'll likely just find their way in without a test anyways, if they're set on wanting to have a look.

• Putting notes in letterboxes - Like in previous years we'll drop notes into the letterboxes of all surrounding villages to inform them about the event happening, give a few words about our culture, and highight the fact that in coordination with Freiland, Amt & Gemeinde we have reduced the music program to limit the impact on neighbors (especially during the week nights), plus invite to the site tour. But we will not invite them to drop by anytime, the above policy is really just regarding the few locals (in the past it's been <5 for the whole event) that show up on their own.

• Site tour at Sat 2pm - Like in 2019 we want to run this tour of the site. This worked well last time, we had about 20 people show up and had a very engaged and positive 2 hr tour with them.

Let me know anout any thoughts/feedback/questions!

Update: permit application on the way! 👀 We're waiting for feedback on the general regulations (Auflagen) and will update @Jack asap about the required number of toilets.

Hey folks. I was chatting with @Friso regarding the grey water. Have Freiland given any indication one way or the other if they are happy for us to dispose greywater (food and bio soap) onto the land somewhere?

A bit off-topic thing here that I hope it's not annoying:

could we possibly ask the Freiland people to borrow again the white 3x4m tent we used for 1st Aid in 2019 for Gate & Greeters? Apparently @Professor Kaos arranged it last time.

@Mareike FYI

What is allowed with the lake at Freiland now? Are we allowed to havw perfomances or artwork their?

Pirate Kiez want to build a floating island, and we have at least one dream that uses the lake as a backdrop to her performance.

@janthomas @berlinette @Kate - as the Site Leads Lead, I will be collecting all important documentation so that Site Leads will have copies of them readily available on-site. If you remember when it's all setup and ready to go, can you forward a copy of the contracts, permits, and any other important documents (official hygiene concept, sound protocol, etc.) to me please? Thanks

how does freiland direct their sound systems? i know there are villages around that should be avoided, but how do they do it? if we know that in village 1 is always a deep bass complaint and in village 2 are always noisy high frequencies waking up the babies, maybe we can arrange the sound systems accordingly.

Hey Hey peeps, @Jan Thomas @Kate @Annette we are working on a timeline, and have the input from Franzi see here.

Would you please answer these questions about dates /deadlines/ time frame of what has to be with site liaison, please? I suggest putting up your own timeline in this thread so that I will extract the info from here to integrate it with the rest of the stuff that has to happen.

Thanks, Thanks!!!

Thanks for these excellent protocol notes! :) Just one thing I would say - we have quite a few fire extinguishers already in the storage that have been purchased by KB Orga in the past. :) I would assume enough to legally cover up to 1000 people.

FYI 😷 Additionally, we need to present a plan to the authorities on how we will not become a superspreader event – @Hanna-Maija (Animal) is on it, she received the hygiene concept of Wilde Möhre, which we can copy & adapt to our needs and the situation.

Next up: Before we can submit our official registration application to the authorities, we need to develop a sound concept (to be discussed with the Freiland crew) 🔥🎧 Who wants to co-create the first draft together with @Quentin feugere?

Here are some recommendations from Eric and Dilan:

• "Big quiet times are desired, but a rave should still be possible"

• "It is better not to start already on Wednesday and Thursday with loud music"

• "No continuous loud music (for example, a quiet break until early evening is a good idea)"

• "At Freiland Festival there is a single day when the stages run (almost) continuously, the next day is a more silent day"

• "Limiting the volume through smart program design (variety through workshops and theater; generally a family friendly program is recommended – then there are fewer complaints when the neighbors come onto the property)"
  

So first of all, we need this official concept for Freiland and for the authorities. The complicated thing is that we are organized in a decentralized way, as @CJ Yetman mentioned in a recent thread: Who makes sure that the naughty people from Underworld don't overdo it 😎 If the police calls Freiland Festival, their site leads can just turn off the sound... Can we find a date to discuss this week?