Will Kiez Burn happen in a New Location in 2022?

So, I did some calculations for the Kunts to move their things, which is a new camp with not much stuff (8sqm ceiling high in storage Freiland). We will need a task force of 10 people + transport of those humans... then 1-2 trucks (depending on size and what our licenses allow us), driving from the existing venue to where ever the new venue is. Then petrol expense on top. thats about 900 euros at least

We have approx 30 camps to consider moving. Its a big coordination effort. I'm raising this so its not overlooked.

It's my wish to find a new venue and a new storage but we will need a committed storage team to figure this out and rally the cats. I perceive this to be the largest part to consider in a change of location.

I recall the venue we found in 2020 had storage but it needed significant work done to the building to make it secure. That may also need to be considered!

Hi @Randy Pence I have added on the thread itself a sheet with two columns with the pros and cons of moving to a new location.

Sounds like a sunk cost fallacy to hold the event hostage by the proximity to the storage of things which get used once a year.

What could happen is that another burn gets organized, because there isn't enough capacity for the demand at freiland, a different location offers more flexibility, etc and after a year or two, enough of the org and significant camps decide to join the other, because eco toilets and water are not that difficult to come by in germany and kiez burn implodes.

Do you mean with your previous comment that having to transport all storage and finding new storage is not a "con" that weighs on the decision? Am I understanding your perspective correctly?

I totally get that moving a bunch of stuff sucks. I work in a sound reinforcement company and every single job means packing and unpacking vehicles. My stuff generally has wheels and cases and it still sucks. Decorations and whatnot after a burn are probably less organized and therefore even less fun.

Of course it is a con to move all the stuff, the question is whether keeping it near freiland is worth more than finding a better home for it. There are a simply a lot more potential local burn participants who might either or both not have too much stuff stuck up there and interest to have a burn elsewhere.

having to pay for the transport of other camps stuff doesnt sound like radical self reliance. Why should any new kiez or one which organized their stuff elsewhere have to pay for your transport? Moving org stuff, yes, I can understand such logistics costs getting passed on.

And I totally get that there is also the aspect of community and it might sound kind of callous. How big was your kiez?

I understand very well why you compare this to your job @Randy Pence.... However, we should remember how high the motivation of the community was to go a second and a third time to the Freiland site to clean up the MOOP remains after this year's Burn. That alone took massive power and energy, and no one is even getting paid for it. It could be that moving to another spot means more work for the KORG. New location, new contacts, new infrastructure etc.

Sometimes, ideas and demands in the first place and then the actual commitment can diverge massively... I'm not against looking for a new location – someone has to take care of that, and the new place has to be clearly convincing and the community needs to be highly motivated for doing this move 😉

Of course, there is great potential to attract more and more people who are interested in a local burn. The folks who don't have much stuff in storage tend not to get involved so much with art installations or theme camps – and that's what makes this very event, Kiez Burn, so wonderful! Let's see how this develops...

Con - bigger venue, less intimate burn.

Con - harder to keep track of and promote the missing principles of leave no trace and gifting before expansion. Id argue this needs to be addressed first. Otherwise, its going to take you twice as long to clear the venue when it's over.

Speaking from a non-musical point of view, do we need more space for more ideas?

The impression I got was that there was the space, but no-one was utilising it. What are you going to fill the extra space with....?

Why not reduce the number of tickets, if intimacy is the goal? Is intimacy the goal? Alternatively, is Freiland actually intimate? There are so many unusable areas that one has to walk around that I fail to see how intimacy is relevant to the discussion.

Roughly the same amount of people participated this year as 2 years ago, so this year's problems can't be tied to number of participants. There have been larger burns elsewhere, How did they handle LNT and gifting?

Art project ideas can require a fair amount of space. The original planning was to concentrate projects on the mesa, but in practice, that runs out of room quickly.

As replied to Paul, moop wasn't as much of an issue with a similar number of people 2 years ago. What changed?

Kiez Burn had to move to a new location in its second year. All of the scary new stuff you mention already had to be faced and the event concept did not fall apart, so why so much resistance now?

I really don't see how much stuff one puts into storage dictates their involvement. Workshops do not require stored pallets of stuff. Neither does planning. And if the same art is to be recycled every year, people will be probably get bored of the same stuff

Why reduce tickets? I said it was a con to move, not a pro to stay.

I only remember one big art idea in five years, and that for rejected because of cost.

Personally, I like small and compact rather than large and widespread, but that's just me.

But going back to my initial point: the only b reason being put forward for a move is less sound restrictions.

reduce tickets to foster more intimacy. fewer people, potentially more interactions with the same people. Does that make sense? No? Well, I don't consider location size to have anything to do with potential intimacy. Nothing prevents a few compatible camps from being next to each other and providing a cozy neighborhood to hang out in. Put all the potentially loud shit somewhere else. In fact, enlarging the location makes it more possible to do so.

I understand not being able to devote resources to just just one art project when there are only a thousand participants. With more participants, it would be easier to spread out the costs for an exceptional project, and provide support for more. Hence, the diversity sought out by a bigger burn.

Yes, a move would potentially mean less sound restrictions, but lots of other options, too. You might not be a musically inclined person, but you must accept that there is a huge block of burners who are. You argue hard in the direction of a small, silent burn, of which there are many more options than for those accommodating amplified music. If I'm wrong and most burns actually have amplified music, then perhaps that means that is what burners want.