Will Kiez Burn happen in a New Location in 2022?

A small festivals with a site that allows as much sound as you want would likely not be an improvement for me and some in our camp. Kiezburn to me is not a solely sound festival, and having periods in the day where the loud base does not imposed on neighboring spaces allows for workshops, silliness, and other energy to develop. Also for a 5-6 day event, having times during the week where you can sleep well due to the sound restrictions was extremely important to me. I liked that the freiland site requires moderation of the desires of sound camps. And I found that there were multiple spaces and many many hours of extremely loud techno to enjoy. Underworld was incredible as was the saloon and the live stage.

I think the discussion of a new location goes way beyond sound camps. Yes, a burn is not a music festival. There were no sound camps at Burning Man until the mid 90s. Yet music is an innate part of our culture.

Nevertheless, I opt for scouting a new location. In order to maintain and grow its culture and become more "burny", Kiezburn must grow in size and the ratio international burners.

Furthermore, we need a space that allows for more interaction in the camps places along the roads - a place that is more open and allows camps to rethink their infrastructure.

This does not imply music 24/7. But a new space offers more possibilities for sound camps, (interactive) large-scale and possibly even permanent art, plazas etc.

@Eric when you say "I found that there were multiple spaces and many many hours of extremely loud techno to enjoy." this is exactly the problem being discussed: a lack of diversity. Even if the music that was played is up your alley, it might not be everyone cup of tea. And frankly, I do not see a single reason to place Underworld every year at the most central spot without any further discussion about it.

Getting a site that enables more shenanigans and expressions is the best frame making initiative the org can take at the moment.

This isn’t just about sound and we shouldn’t distract ourselves with a “should it be loud or not” discussion.

I’m free to help scout until the new year, but my German is useless.

Since location scouting was already done a couple years ago, and at least one viable option was found, should we not begin by at least reviewing the results of that process again? As far as I remember, between Freiland and this other option, it was tough decision. Maybe that decision would sway the other way with another year of context at Freiland?

Thanks for the input. I value people participating in this channel

I agree is not about sound or not sound. However, I disagree with the statement that "Kiez burn must grow in size". I think that has to do with perhaps something you pursue that I'm not reading (?) Bigger art installations perhaps will need more pace indeed...

A community that didn't manage well to hold up with the principles in the last event I personally don't think is ready to grow in size but in "quality" regardless of the country of origin or residence.

I believe that the diversity of participants at the event comes down to the way we sell tickets as well rather than what the space offers in square meters let's say.

Maybe the Kez burn population growth discussion should be discussed separately(?) as it was done before https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/QaEJ9Fit/-advice-process-kiez-burn-population-growth-

Yes! I couldn't find a thread or doc with the locations found back then. If you have it would you share it here 🙏

updated this thread with some links as reference

I think this was the final review/comparison https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DeFdf5-_9cjAp849_k-AY48JfGoAoCSsYPaxWWcrPN0/edit

I guess everything in this folder is relevant https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1yN4g9kwp_cd3CsrPhpf30bKlk59T23ik

I went with Owl a number of years ago to the site where freqs of nature and Würzeln Festival have had history at a former airfield in NIedergörsdorf/Altes Lager. A complication with the overall site is that there are several stakeholders dividing it up who don't exactly see eye to eye with each other. Sound familiar with respect to Freiland? Still, the site is enormous and the various hosts feature various larger scale gatherings in their yearly program. There was apparently some idea to do some 70k person rave there, but I can't find links to the press releases for it.

I had an idea, should something be possible to do there, and call it Mark. One reason for the Mark of Brandenburg. Another because we could have so much fun playing with the word mark. Participants could be called Markists. X marks the spot. Feel the vibrations with Marky Mark. whatever. Instead of referring to a year, each gather would be called Mark I, Mark II, etc.

Depending on what section we'd use, there would be no features. No trees, no hills, no lakes. Sound familiar to a different regional? Attached is a sketch I started to map out one usage possibility. I think the streets were all about 10m wide and the camp sections 50m between the radial streets. I'm not an architect, nor an urban planner, but maybe this or some variation would work. I think I drew this so that the hang gliders could continue their fun on the runway. Perhaps a variation would have us populate either side of the runway. Whatever, there is space. Space to be stupid, space to be loud, space to be quiet, space to stare at clouds.

I can say for sure that I will not have the time to commit to core planning, but if some of you like the idea, run with it. Set up some Kramps. Make a radical kakaphony.

Option one : Kultur Kosmos e.v ( Fusion Festival Location ) perfect // loud space for BIG art & Bigger fires : contact mail@fusion-festival.de

Second one in Poland Lios lab

An actual desert : Błędów Desert

6 hours from Berlin // not that far than Gerlach

https://www.lios.io/

https://m.facebook.com/lioslabs/

Check the picture an actual desert / fire allowed , i have some fast track contacts also ( Berlin Based Crew )

I agree that this should be a separate thread (oh if only Talk had a way) - but I want to challenge the truism that new people are unburnery or a challenge to our “way of life” or some such thing. They are a gift. Those who show up create the event, it’s our responsibility as frame makers to clearly communicate expectations and consequences for not meeting them, and we’re not doing a super good job of it.

Also yes let’s do tickets differently 💖

While I wasn't at this year's KB, I wouldnt make judgments about overall potential participant conduct without weighing what happens when a bunch of hippies get released out of a global lockdown.

The event needs to be able to grow because capacity will be dwarfed by demand. Ticketing could be tinkered to create kiez cliques, which might be fine for those in them, but another event will then probably emerge

Fusion is probably reluctant to have another festival on the same grounds unless they have a significant say in how it is run.

Have there ever been events at the desert? It seems like the kind of place that Poland might like to keep as a nature preserve.

@Randy Pence maybe this current discussion interests you. My understanding is that we should decide if we want to grow and then see location possibilities.

A big part of Freiland is no longer available for us as it is now reserved to preserve nature. In this location will not be possible to host an event with more than 1000 participants. Also, growing in size will mean a whole lot of new bureaucratic paperwork and permits that we have no experience with...not saying this is impossible, just something to consider in the timeline.

Thanks for moving the talk over to Talk! And as has already been discussed – the range of music is not something that would be determined by a central orga. If the community is missing something, it has to come from the community as a contribution and as a gift! Rather we can think about allocating space for sound camps and possibly slots for sound acts more centrally next time. (Someone will need to take care of this in advance and come forward with a proposal, otherwise it will be resolved again through the usual location/camp realizer/sound leads process.)

One more important thing: When choosing a location, it's important to consider the infrastructure and relationships that are already in place. We currently have our storage right near Freiland, something new would have to be found if we switch our venue (not to mention moving all the stuff to another barn). Also, we know the area well and already have good relationships with the owner, the neighbors and the Amt/local office. Thanks to our new sound concept, there were no official complaints about loud music this year – compared to 2019! (I doubt there are that many places in Germany where we wouldn't have to deal with neighbors...) There are already some composting toilets and running water in place... tl;dr It is not only the possibility for more radical self-expression that is crucial in the decision-making process 😉

PS Fully agree with the points raised so far that we don't want to/can't grow so fast. Many people find the current location with its great scenic diversity wonderful. (Personal disclaimer: For me, smaller events are at the same time the nicer ones – more intimate and cosy.) And yes, it's about quality and not quantity – selling more tickets (especially because of our proximity to Berlin and the relatively low ticket price) will not automatically lead to having more art and a better variety!

Won’t somebody please think of the storage?

While id love to find a new location that supports more of what we wish for, i will just gently remind people we have storage and new location will require storage… and also commitment to moving all of our shit to a new location. What will this look like? Large trucks? Who drives the trucks? Individual camps sort themselves? This is a multi day commitment with months of pre-planning. Who pays for this? It could be thousands of euros. Ohmergerdddd

Please consider raising ticket prices next year in support of this monstrous mission, which is something all camps must commit to… and what of the ones that don’t?

As a camp lead, i dont even want to think of this.

Sounds like a sunk cost fallacy to hold the event hostage by the proximity to the storage of things which get used once a year.

What could happen is that another burn gets organized, because there isn't enough capacity for the demand at freiland, a different location offers more flexibility, etc and after a year or two, enough of the org and significant camps decide to join the other, because eco toilets and water are not that difficult to come by in germany and kiez burn implodes. At least you will still have your storage and the event will be as small as you like it.

So, I did some calculations for the Kunts to move their things, which is a new camp with not much stuff (8sqm ceiling high in storage Freiland). We will need a task force of 10 people + transport of those humans... then 1-2 trucks (depending on size and what our licenses allow us), driving from the existing venue to where ever the new venue is. Then petrol expense on top. thats about 900 euros at least

We have approx 30 camps to consider moving. Its a big coordination effort. I'm raising this so its not overlooked.

It's my wish to find a new venue and a new storage but we will need a committed storage team to figure this out and rally the cats. I perceive this to be the largest part to consider in a change of location.

I recall the venue we found in 2020 had storage but it needed significant work done to the building to make it secure. That may also need to be considered!

Hi @Randy Pence I have added on the thread itself a sheet with two columns with the pros and cons of moving to a new location.

Sounds like a sunk cost fallacy to hold the event hostage by the proximity to the storage of things which get used once a year.

What could happen is that another burn gets organized, because there isn't enough capacity for the demand at freiland, a different location offers more flexibility, etc and after a year or two, enough of the org and significant camps decide to join the other, because eco toilets and water are not that difficult to come by in germany and kiez burn implodes.

Do you mean with your previous comment that having to transport all storage and finding new storage is not a "con" that weighs on the decision? Am I understanding your perspective correctly?

I totally get that moving a bunch of stuff sucks. I work in a sound reinforcement company and every single job means packing and unpacking vehicles. My stuff generally has wheels and cases and it still sucks. Decorations and whatnot after a burn are probably less organized and therefore even less fun.

Of course it is a con to move all the stuff, the question is whether keeping it near freiland is worth more than finding a better home for it. There are a simply a lot more potential local burn participants who might either or both not have too much stuff stuck up there and interest to have a burn elsewhere.

having to pay for the transport of other camps stuff doesnt sound like radical self reliance. Why should any new kiez or one which organized their stuff elsewhere have to pay for your transport? Moving org stuff, yes, I can understand such logistics costs getting passed on.

And I totally get that there is also the aspect of community and it might sound kind of callous. How big was your kiez?

I understand very well why you compare this to your job @Randy Pence.... However, we should remember how high the motivation of the community was to go a second and a third time to the Freiland site to clean up the MOOP remains after this year's Burn. That alone took massive power and energy, and no one is even getting paid for it. It could be that moving to another spot means more work for the KORG. New location, new contacts, new infrastructure etc.

Sometimes, ideas and demands in the first place and then the actual commitment can diverge massively... I'm not against looking for a new location – someone has to take care of that, and the new place has to be clearly convincing and the community needs to be highly motivated for doing this move 😉

Of course, there is great potential to attract more and more people who are interested in a local burn. The folks who don't have much stuff in storage tend not to get involved so much with art installations or theme camps – and that's what makes this very event, Kiez Burn, so wonderful! Let's see how this develops...

Con - bigger venue, less intimate burn.

Con - harder to keep track of and promote the missing principles of leave no trace and gifting before expansion. Id argue this needs to be addressed first. Otherwise, its going to take you twice as long to clear the venue when it's over.

Speaking from a non-musical point of view, do we need more space for more ideas?

The impression I got was that there was the space, but no-one was utilising it. What are you going to fill the extra space with....?

Why not reduce the number of tickets, if intimacy is the goal? Is intimacy the goal? Alternatively, is Freiland actually intimate? There are so many unusable areas that one has to walk around that I fail to see how intimacy is relevant to the discussion.

Roughly the same amount of people participated this year as 2 years ago, so this year's problems can't be tied to number of participants. There have been larger burns elsewhere, How did they handle LNT and gifting?

Art project ideas can require a fair amount of space. The original planning was to concentrate projects on the mesa, but in practice, that runs out of room quickly.

As replied to Paul, moop wasn't as much of an issue with a similar number of people 2 years ago. What changed?

Kiez Burn had to move to a new location in its second year. All of the scary new stuff you mention already had to be faced and the event concept did not fall apart, so why so much resistance now?

I really don't see how much stuff one puts into storage dictates their involvement. Workshops do not require stored pallets of stuff. Neither does planning. And if the same art is to be recycled every year, people will be probably get bored of the same stuff

Why reduce tickets? I said it was a con to move, not a pro to stay.

I only remember one big art idea in five years, and that for rejected because of cost.

Personally, I like small and compact rather than large and widespread, but that's just me.

But going back to my initial point: the only b reason being put forward for a move is less sound restrictions.

reduce tickets to foster more intimacy. fewer people, potentially more interactions with the same people. Does that make sense? No? Well, I don't consider location size to have anything to do with potential intimacy. Nothing prevents a few compatible camps from being next to each other and providing a cozy neighborhood to hang out in. Put all the potentially loud shit somewhere else. In fact, enlarging the location makes it more possible to do so.

I understand not being able to devote resources to just just one art project when there are only a thousand participants. With more participants, it would be easier to spread out the costs for an exceptional project, and provide support for more. Hence, the diversity sought out by a bigger burn.

Yes, a move would potentially mean less sound restrictions, but lots of other options, too. You might not be a musically inclined person, but you must accept that there is a huge block of burners who are. You argue hard in the direction of a small, silent burn, of which there are many more options than for those accommodating amplified music. If I'm wrong and most burns actually have amplified music, then perhaps that means that is what burners want.

Intimacy does not mean less tickets. Go to a bigger venue and you've got people and camps more spread out. Especially if people are having to camp further away from the sound camps to sleep.

Expansion when things are not only not working but actually getting worse in the case of LNT is never a good idea.

Kiezburn is simply not functioning well enough to grow as a burn. The balance is way off. The principles aren't being adhered to. It's catering for party people too much and not for actual burners. This is why the ticket holders are veering more towards party people than burns. Moving to a more sound-oriented location and this will be exacerbate it. And let's face it, that is the only reason for moving (there's plenty of suave for new ideas at Frieland, why is it not being used?)

For a music festival - yes, expand - but I keep getting told that kiezburn is not a music festival.

That's me out.

„What changed?“ Is exactly one of the right questions to ask. And what makes it so difficult. If you’re already experiencing a problem in the community that was fine in a similar setup before, it will only increase in complexity with more people in the mix. When anonymity and group dynamics increase what’s already there.

I think we shouldn’t ignore what we’ve learned from the last burn just because the ones before that were „better“ (in the sense of principals).

„Why so much resistance now?“ - I don’t have the feeling that everyone is feeling incredibly strong and agitated by this conversation but rather trying to expand and collect arguments for pro or con sides. Please let’s try to consider that and stay open to all perspectives.

valid point that it shouldn’t dictate the involvement. Nethertheless we are a Community that collaborates under the spirit of the burn. I’d like to consider the logistics, costs and energies of everyone involved, as I enjoy beautiful camps as much as new and familiar art and inspiring workshops.

Hi Randy, maybe there is a misunderstanding. Im not asking other kiez to pay for any other kiez transport. I'm unclear where that idea comes from. I am suggesting that it will cost over 1000 euros to move the contents of our kiez to another storage facility plus significant preparation work. Having a central role in KB org the last years, aiding storage this year and leading camps the last 3 years, I am aware of the coordination effort. The Kunts was a small camp of 30 people. The pirates is bigger with more stuff. Underworld, saloon and the Muddi's have even more.

The Kunts used all our funds getting to KB, so we have no funds left in our pool to manage this. I am just sharing this. I'm not implying anyone pick up our bill. I imagine most other camps could be the same situation. If it comes to it, we will manage and pick up our own bill gladly. Thank you for pointing out the self reliance principle to me. I'm aware of it. I'm simply making some calculations and light estimations of what it would cost for camps to take on such a mission. And I also wish the lead who chooses to take on this coordination effort all the support, patience and energy.

on the storage thing as a con: I fully understand and sympathize with those that have a lot of stuff in storage at Freiland, and I realize that could be a very large expense and effort to deal with for those people, however, as someone who is a part of a camp that does not use storage at Freiland, it feels a bit strange to have that hanging over our heads, shaping our decisions, determining whether or not we consider moving to a better location, etc.

"Please consider raising ticket prices next year in support of this monstrous mission, which is something all camps must commit to… and what of the ones that don’t?"

I personally dont have a preference whether to stay or not in Freiland. I dont have a formulated opinion about that yet, I see your point and from that perspective, it does sound strange.

My interpretation is that to make a decision on whether we change a Location, we should weigh in all aspects. I dont think what is being pointed at in this conversation is that Storage is fully limiting and shaping the decision but only something to consider if we want to be supportive with the Kieze. This could mean, primarily, giving enough time in advance for them to organize and get funds to make it possible. At least that is the kind of generosity and cooperation I would love to see if we changed location. Time is crucial on this matter I think.

About pros and Cons: many of the pros listed above are rather "possibilities" but we are not fully sure a new location will give us "fewer sound problems", or" more ideas", "better camp interactions" and "different spirit", when I read the cons, I see more factual points. So that I struggle to support one or the other. Maybe we need to list the pros and cons between Freiland and any other specific location proposed, then this analysis might become more clear.

Some more details about Freiland, our current location. My perspective is that of a realizer who has been extremely closely involved in the site liaison and permit issue this year – together with @Annette and @Jan Thomas – and has had several conversations with one of the owners of Freiland.

• Kiez Burn has a good standing in the surrounding area: Freiland considers us as a community with similar interests and mentions us in a positive context when talking to the neighborhood.

• We are also perceived as positive because we help invest in the site (e.g., helped fund the composting toilets or help with construction). Freiland is interested in further sustainable cooperation – permanent, firmly existing structures also benefit our community (e.g. the construction of a production container). If we support here, it is also possible to get involved further.

• One of the reasons why the sound concept worked so well is because we entered into close discussions with Freiland and respected the interests of the neighborhood – they try to coordinate the loud events well and schedule them throughout the year. Noise emission was perceived as good, there were no complaints. In the meantime, Schloss Broock has become another noisy venue, which the neighbors probably perceive more negatively. That's why Freiland does not accept – apart from us – any other loud music events on the premises.

We have already received some proposed dates for next year and the sooner we decide on a date, the better the neighborhood relationships would go (Freiland can announce all events in the beginning of next year together) and the easier getting the permit will be. The Amt already knows us from the years before and already knows what is going on, so this helps us with a more smooth permit process.

@Randy Pence I have the impression that you are very much in favor of a change of location. If you would like to proactively suggest a specific location and discuss pros and cons of the new venue, it needs to happen now. We would like to commit probably by the end of this year, so we can move on with planning.

What i state here is different to having other camps pay for other camps things. I discuss the pricing of tickets in general, which has been an open topic for some time. Raising ticket prices would support camps in returning. So in general it becomes a collective pot. I don't wish to throw principles around at each-other. You could say that i'm not considering self reliance, i could say that you're not considering community, inclusion or consent. If it's your opinion that we keep tickets low and make camps spend thousands of dollars to move to a new site, I hear it. I don't agree and we can agree to disagree.
I cant imagine that all existing camps consent to raising alot of money to return and continue gifting to kiez burn at the expense of someone else's decision. If we all decide, then that's great. As camp lead and Kieze facilitator, i have some insight that that would not be the case.
Our burn is one of the cheapest burns in europe, a bit more money from the community to support our community project in finding a better location and moving us to that location is not a big ask. I am full support of moving to a location, its my wish we properly understand the impact of that and to me, this is a significant things to consider. Take it or leave it. What interests me is the best way we can cooperate to make this happen.

I cant quite work out your position from reading your posts, Randy. Are you for or against moving the event? Are you for or against support for camps?

If it wasn't clear, I'm for moving the event. That intention, however, has nothing to do with where individual camps have chosen to store their stuff.

You mention community. Did the community at large decide to store individual camps stuff where it is?

You mention inclusion. What does that have to do with where camps store their stuff?

You mention consent. What does that have to do with where camps store their stuff?

I'm afraid you water down these terms by tying them to the choices individual (and not all!) camps made on their own.

It doesn't really matter how much tickets to kiez burn cost compared to other burns or have your forgotten about decommodification? KB is cheaper to put due to where it takes place, with respect to permit, infrastructure, etc costs, and it helps that it is close enough to where the bulk of its participants live. There is no reason to arbitrarily makes it more expensive, unless the money went for more art grants. Berlin rents are lower than other european metropoles, but that doesnt mean that they should go up to match London pricing. Sometimes people forget that not everyone in Berlin makes cushy money from tech startups, so real inclusion would be to keep ticket prices affordable.

I'm for camps, but not subsidizing questionable decisions. Make art, yes! Booze? no. There is no oversight as to how camps decided upon their storage or logistics, so I don't think it is fair for the community to absorb those costs.

I think a new venue would definately be a change and could be a good option for new energy and creativity to rise and develop. I also know that for a lot of people sound and dancing is a really important part of the burn and for those, it would be great to have the possibility to always have music around somewhere. More people could also help make things and art installations become bigger and more people could get involved with organising. Maybe there would also be more space for sound camps. I know that last year some camps would have loved to participate with sound but with the concept it wasn't possible and will not be in the next years. Cafe Wonderland was really wishing a little stage for example. Also if there would be more sound camps, it would be not as full in the Underworld like it sometimes was. So for us Underworldies it would be good to sometimes to have more space in our camp.

I also really love the Freiland venue but in terms of growth, I think a change should happen at some point. If we cannot do it this year due to time issues, we should try again.
I went to "Evolution" Festival this year and the venue could fit really good as well. There is a big lake (not shure about swimming though) but a lot of little spots and seperate areas around. The venue is green and pretty big and it's near Greifswald so not far from Freiland. Area is called Garlin. I could write an email to Evolution Festival and ask for the contact to the venue if it would be interesting for us.

@Anna Cover Same here – if you would like to proactively suggest a specific location and tell us more about it, it needs to happen now. It would be good to commit to a date early next year, so we can move on with planning. Seems like certain Kiez Burners want to move to a new Gelände but nobody actually takes the lead here... We need to discuss pros and cons – hard facts and not what is theoretically possible. What does it mean to move? How expensive is it? What are the rules? Is there a new storage barn nearby? What date can they offer us? Someone needs to collect this info and make it available here. Who takes care of it? If no one does, we will in all likelihood be happy with Freiland.

edit: in terms of growth – there's some critical opinions here that have been expressed by Kiez Burners... the question is: do we want to grow at a time when participation feels to be decreasing? When many of the community either have their own side projects or are busy with themselves?

Maybe I can drop an update that will perhaps inspire some Burners to proactively watch out for a new location in preparation for the planned vision weekend and next year's burn... There is important site liaison news.

🔊 Freiland is willing to host us again, but we are not supposed to set up a big sound system anymore (smaller sound systems like at Musotopia and at the Saloon are ok).

This year there were three complaints to the authorities from residents, one of which involved a police report. We don't know if it was clearly due to UnderWorld – I heard of a camp with an unregistered PA that didn't follow the sound playtimes, and sound travels much more easily if there's no hollow or trees around... in the first year when we had the sound protocol in place (still without semi-loud camps), there have been no complaints at all. Freiland generally has a relatively good standing with the neighbors, but unfortunately there have been a lot of additional loud events at Schloss Broock lately, which probably strain a lot of nerves and affect the volume tolerance during our event.

So either we have a much quieter event next year or we find another location. FYI @Franzi @Julian Finn #partyfocus