talk.kiezburn.org

Lights for Kiez Burn 2021

Sven Dudink
Sven Dudink Public Seen by 48

Hi there,
i would like to discuss light with my fellow Kiez burners this year,

how will we organize lights,

since lights is not so far away from our area, i did request a quote from our power company,

so far we can rent lamps for 8,75 per lamp for the whole event, cables still need to be rented, but the prices are good, i expect we will pay less than 14 euro per lamp including all wiring, exact answer can be given in the next days

according to KB 2019 map, we will need 26 lights, my guess is that the map is incomplete, someone has contact data from lights lead last year to add to this documentation?

my wish would be to go solar and buy them, but I'm not sure if we can afford solar this year,

The lamps need to be:

  • IP65+ Certified (not in china, china doesn't deal with patents like we do and they are allowed to write on their product whatever they want)

  • The lamps need to be able to charge at daytime without sun and still provide enough light during the night (big battery capacity and big solar panel), the lights need to be able to run all night, not on movement detection mode (correct me if I'm wrong) again, the info on the package means very little in many cases,

  • the lights need to provide enough lumen (I'm sure somehow there is a german documentation stating how much lumen should hit the ground) the lumen need to be validated somewhere german patent laws count, china will put anything what sells on their product, and export sellers who buy from china often will follow these specs

  • The lamps need to be CE, here is a funny thing many people don't know, but it needs to be the CE Conformité Européenne, and not CE China export (watch out, individual sellers often swap them around so the internet has turned into a wild wild west where it can be hard to find something with actual CE Conformité Européenne )

  • The Akkus should preferably be exchangable, batterys dont last super long when not used, especially cheap ones

  • If the lamps are lithium ion, we need to have them charged around 50% when storing them for a year, storing them either on 100% or 0% will drastically reduce the capacity, especially 0%, so they will need a power indicator

  • The lights need to last for the whole event, and afterwards a year long in storage, higher quality comes at a price

If anyone feels like they have a great idea to make solar lights come true, i would be very happy, i personally will not further push this plan through this year



Bee

Bee July 31st, 2021 20:34

If you get proper coloured 'gels' for the lighting they are made to be next to super hot lamps, however they are normally more pricey than a cheaper piece of plastic. (Actually perhaps I'm wrong about the price - https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Temperature-Transparent-Coloured-Lighting-Photography/dp/B094VSZPJM/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=beleuchtung+gele&qid=1627763705&sr=8-3 )

Sven Dudink

Sven Dudink July 30th, 2021 21:01

@Diarmaid if the lights dont get damaged and also don't lose their IP rating, (remain water proof, i don't see why it should be any problem,)

heat is with 10 watt leds not really something i expect issues with, for light transfer its definitely worth getting the right colour filter foil, anything else will have way bigger loss, with good filters you still lose around 2/3rd of the light (correct me if I'm wrong)

as an extra, we will probably still have some budget left to make things extra fancy

Diarmaid

Diarmaid July 30th, 2021 16:15

New plan. Having looked at the lights it is actually super easy to cover them with something - either with paper behind the glass or withe plastic in front of the glass. I don't think that we should consider buying the water canistors, I dont think that it is needed.

The issues that I can see with putting paper behind the glass are:
1) Might void our warrenty with the rental
2) The paper/plastic could become too hot

I don't think that the first is an issue - we are not damaging the lights in any way.

I don't think that the second will be an issue either, but I am testing that at the moment by leaving the light running with a bit of paper there. I will check back in an hour or if it goes on fire.

As for what to use to cover the lights - my paper doesn't work so well (it is single sided coloured origami paper). The best would be bits of coloured plastic - maybe something like this? That would also be able to go on the outside of the glass, and completely remove any fire worries.

The paper does cover quite a bit of light - the transparent colours should also allow more through.

Diarmaid

Diarmaid July 29th, 2021 22:53

Yeah I can pick it up from there.

Sven Dudink

Sven Dudink July 29th, 2021 20:39

@Diarmaid yeah as they are fairly bright its fine covering them up, their pickup location is close to Gotlieb-Dunkel brucke, if its doable for you to pick one up overthere, i can definitely ask,

Diarmaid

Diarmaid July 29th, 2021 20:18

Yes, I think that 35 will be enough to cover everywhere with a bit to spare. Covering them up will take away some brightness but it should be fine.

There is no way to get one before the event? I would love to have a prototype to try designs on.

Sven Dudink

Sven Dudink July 29th, 2021 20:11

@Diarmaid yes LEDS are super efficient,

The difference between older and newer generations is also fairly big,

What i would suggest is, we rent 35 LED lights with cables, this will cost us 593 incl MwSt, that would leave us 407 euro budget for making them awesome, ofcourse we dont need to spend everything, but im sure we can make something super cool

Diarmaid

Diarmaid July 29th, 2021 19:55

Man, LEDs are so efficient. I'm getting some different numbers here, but it is looking like a 10W LED is around 900 Lumens, which is pretty bright.

So, if we are renting the lights, then the lights will not be solar powered, but will instead come with the cables required to use them? And the cost to just rent the cables is about 400 euro total?

If we do want to make them nicer, the simplest way is to buy a number of the water canistors and cover them in that, just like they did at Freiland Sommerfest. The budget should cover enough canisters from your link above.

We could also buy some wire, and some plastic, and make a wire and plastic surround for the lights. This could be nicer because we could have them all different colours instead of just being white. I don't know how to make these yet, so would need to figure that out.

How soon do we have to confirm that we want the lights from the power company? It would be cool to get some LED lights, but maybe the budget does not allow for it.

Sven Dudink

Sven Dudink July 28th, 2021 21:39

if you read my top post you can get a bit more info and the issues with amazon bought lights and solar panels,
i did a extensive search for buying lights, quality comes at a price,

the coloured lights are very cool though, maybe for example to light up the stairs?

around half of the budget for the lights goes into cables,

here is a breakdown based on 50 lights:

50 lamps : 375

50x40m cables: 225
50x schuko divider: 112,50

+19%MwSt

as the waylights are not only for decoration, they also have a safety function, they need to meet certain standards

Diarmaid

Diarmaid July 28th, 2021 21:12

So I looked over the map from last year and there are only 24 lights placed there. There were some areas which I thought could have more lighting - e.g. it looks like there are no lights under the stairs, which were taking 2 lights at the Sommerfest stairs if I remember correctly.

We could also think about buying some lights, instead of renting them. With a budget of 1000, you can buy a good number of 100W LED floodlights -
here is one for 36€ on Amazon.

You can also get coloured LED lights for a little bit more, here are some 100W ones for 45€ each.

If you drop down to only looking for 10W LEDs, then the price is also cheaper - here you can buy them for 16€ each, which works out at 800 for 50 of them.

What would be the cable situation? How long would the cables we need be, and could we rent them from the power company without renting any lights? Buying cables doesn't seem like it would be an option, to get a 50m waterproof extension lead looks like it costs about 90 euro, and the leads on the LED lights don't look very long.

Wait, these are solar powered, which means no leads required.

Sven Dudink

Sven Dudink July 28th, 2021 18:56

exactly, one very nice thing with having these lights on build is: we can during build use them to light up parts of the site for contruction

Answering your questions:
transport for power and lights is arranged,

i don't have a eta, i do have a eda though (estimate day of arrival :p) which would be Friday evening
06.08.2021 we can return them between 16.08 and 18.08, they are very relaxed with that


since its really a few lamps, i don't really see the point in redoing the lights map, we just place one and see how far the light goes and where it would be nice to have the next one

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 27th, 2021 22:08

Wonderful news!

I think your alternative is cheaper and also good opportunity to try something else than Ponk who is such a pita to localize and communicate. Always hard to reach...

  • Would you buy the shower curtains or these colored plastic paper and get them to site ? Anyone could make them nicer onsite. Shouldn't be a major issue to decorate the ground lights. If noone can do this in the end It will not be a disaster. Its just a nice to have.

  • Leftover budget for cool lights ? Sounds good to me!

  • We can have the light during all build? Fantastic! We can do this job in a more "relaxed" way and not al rushed in Tuesday. Sweet!

  • Water canisters look awful to me. But tbh I havent noticed them at freiland until you showed them in a pic. I guess we, participants don't look up so much lol. Whatever solution would work. Even only the light and not canister would suffice for the purpose of safety onsite.

Questions

  • is power transport confirmed

  • Equipment Eta time ?

  • Are you planning to do a new ligjts map or we just solve this onsite?

Thank you dear galaxy of my heart ❤

Sven Dudink

Sven Dudink July 27th, 2021 11:17

@Diarmaid @Franzi
I talked with ponk about the light situation, he explained me that at the moment only part of the lights are available, they have bin hanging lights by skipping every second lamppost, they have new equipment on the way, but it will not arrive in time for this year, i still requested a pricequote but i think that if we can do it ourselves with all the lampposts lighted and for a competitive budget, we should,
the complete lights budget for this year is 1000 euro


What i have arranged so far:
10 Watt LED Waterproof event lightning (i requested quote for 50 pieces (847,50 incl MwSt and cables) but we probably need around 25-30 400-500 euro)
all cables in between the lights, i went for the maximum length of 40 meter in between, this could be fine-tuned to save some money
all will be transported with the power cables, (since the rental does not have any purpose for the lights before and after our event we could keep them for the same price over the whole build strike period)

what is not arranged:
right now its plain and simple lights, so making the lights nice,
there are many ways of doing this, half cut water canisters work great for this, this is also what ponk has been using, for the ground lights, painted pieces of shower curtain and elastic band are a great way to diffuse and colour the lights, and there are a ton of other creative ways

Exact positioning of all lights: the map ponk used can still be used for most of the lamps, there are a few places we might not need lamps anymore since it has become ponyland, and there are a few spots where we would like to have lights now

Hanging the lights on the lamp posts:
one system would be to hang them with cable ties, ofcourse we are not bound by the lamp posts, but i guess it would be very nice to use them anyways

with leftover budget we could potentially also rent some of the spots we used for workshop weekend 2020, they where great to light the stairs, they work with all colours and where not so expensive i could double check what would be the price for 12 days if @Diarmaid you see potential in this

here is btw a cheap link for canisters similar to what ponk has been using https://www.kaufland.de/product/318929701/?kwd=&source=pla&sid=13038241&gclid=Cj0KCQjw3f6HBhDHARIsAD_i3D8O3eMc-_NqdNVbhcZlG4HzFaTZs7l7tbVkXkx-cC8KGkhMhP6KtT4aAiFaEALw_wcB


Franzi

Franzi July 27th, 2021 10:18

@Sven Dudink wanted to talk to Ponk :)

Diarmaid

Diarmaid July 27th, 2021 10:08

So what is the status of the lights realizer? I agreed to do this if required at the Freiland Sommerfest, but have heard some conflicting information about whether I am needed, or whether the old realizer is going to come back to do it.

@Franzi @Sven Dudink

Bee

Bee July 6th, 2021 16:59

I've reached out to Christian who was interested and he will be contacting Sven :)

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 6th, 2021 10:27

just reminding to please direct this human to this thread ❤️

Sven Dudink

Sven Dudink June 28th, 2021 20:41

Hi Bee, i would indeed be happy with someone helping with, or installing the lights, i dont have a clear vision yet on time consumption, thats why im very happy to get in contact with the realizer 2019

Sven Dudink

Sven Dudink June 28th, 2021 20:39

Thanks mareike for forwarding

Mareike

Mareike June 28th, 2021 20:37

might have someone for this role who is working in the event business. forwarded the thread to him, he might geht in touch with you here @Sven Dudink

Bee

Bee June 28th, 2021 20:18

Will you find a co-Realizer to enable the physical set up on Site for Build?

Sven Dudink

Sven Dudink June 28th, 2021 19:42

im happy taking the role actually, most of it is already done, at this point its mainly the practical part, which is very little,

Bee

Bee June 28th, 2021 16:41

Edited title to include: Realizer needed. Should we send via comms a Realizer shoutout for this?

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 28th, 2021 16:10

Thanks sven. I dont want tonget involved in lights. But so far to me it looks like you are the realizer.😆