talk.kiezburn.org
Thu 2 May 2019 4:13PM

Tracking towards better understanding

W walto Public Seen by 36

I would like to propose we track the usage of the different online tools in a GDPR-conform way in one tool we trust won’t misuse the data.
The key argument to track better, is to understand how to facilitate more online participation in the co-creation process.

Why track

Overarching goals:

  • improve the online tools we use (website, Dreams, Talk, Realities, emails)

  • Increase the relevance of these tools to the community, particularly for new people

  • Motivate people to take action to publicize information from Talk, Realities,… via different channels

More concrete data specs:

  • better understand how we can best engage people.
    Examples: Is Facebook indeed the best way to publicize what is happening on Talk? Should we send more emails to inform people about what is happening?

  • What do people do on these platforms? How do they navigate? Which posts are checked a lot?

  • What are new people most interested in? How do they find their way to participate online? We have trouble engaging new people, so how can we do that then?

Which Tool?

First proposal

Agreed solution: Matomo

On Surveys

Some suggested we do not need to track, but can rely on surveys. I would challenge this because of two reasons:

  • just asking the people that are involved gives a very skewed picture. It is the same issue we have with a lot of things: we just end up asking the same people over and over, staying in a bubble. It usually is about engaging the people that are not very involved.

  • In addition, it is a lot more work to distill learnings about how to engage newer people with content through interviews or surveys vs. just looking at a summary of how ppl landed on the website, Talk or Realities. to be honest: won't be done.

H

Henrik 🤖 Mon 30 Sep 2019 8:16AM

I setup a piwiki instance, which has the advantage of not having to rely on Google or send data to a third party. But it has the disadvantage of not working properly. If it can't get fixed we'll probably switch to GA

W

walto Thu 16 Jan 2020 2:02PM

It would be very nice to have google analytics. I understand your concerns, but the ease of use, for me, outweighs the potential issues.

H

Henrik 🤖 Thu 16 Jan 2020 7:20PM

hey waldo,
please check if matomo works for you: https://analytics.kiezburn.org
It's currently tracking https://kiezburn.org/ and http://dreams.kiezburn.org/
login credentials are in lastpass

H

Henrik 🤖 Thu 16 Jan 2020 7:22PM

and there are more stats here: https://kiezburn.org/wp-admin/index.php?page=wp-piwik_stats

W

walto Fri 17 Jan 2020 9:42AM

yeah, I know the Talk one, but it doesnt give me enough info I feel. I want to know how we get ppl to go to Talk, how many new users as %, etc. (same for realities), so that we better understand what is driving ppl towards these platforms and where is it going wrong...

H

Henrik 🤖 Fri 17 Jan 2020 12:09PM

Before we're setting up Google Analytics on all our tools I'd like to have a discussion in a wider circle beforehand to see how the community stands on this point.

W

Poll Created Sat 18 Jan 2020 12:38PM

Let's track better & use it :) Closed Mon 20 Jan 2020 12:28PM

Outcome
by walto Mon 20 Jan 2020 12:29PM

The overarching sentiment seems to be:
- Google Analytics is not desired because of Google
- Tracking alternatives could be possible
- some people do not understand what tracking is, or it's relevance, so that would need to be clearer.

Let's continue discussing, there is further discussion in this thread.

I would like to propose that we track our Talk and Dreams platform via Google Analytics, like we do for our website.

Why track?
- so we better understand what is driving people to these platforms. Is it always Facebook posts, what role do emails play, do people just log in and check? Same for Realities, how do people get there?
- Better understand what people do on these platforms: how do they navigate it?

The goal would be to improve the relevance of these platforms and better connect them to the useflow as expected by Kiez Burners.

Why Google Analytics?
- because it is the most used tracking tool, so lots of people understand already how to use it (incl. me) and has a lot of functionalities
- Because people can be granted access in an easy way

Google Analytics alternatives
- We need to evaluate Matomo (but trouble logging in...)
- still all next steps are relevant (we need to update our privacy notice + onboard ppl into using it)

How about privacy?
- all info is anonymized in Google Analytics. As someone analyzing the data, you would not be able to figure out anything from anybody in particular
- We do need a notice that we track

Next steps
- get input from experts on the matter + people who use these forums if they are ok with this
- WHEN OK: onboard ppl who want to work on improving these community tools into how data analysis might help
- WHEN OK: implement the correct pricacy notices to users: not sure yet what that means

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
Agree 31.3% 5 EM VRS ZD O NV
Abstain 18.8% 3 DR W S
Disagree 37.5% 6 KB S K KW M H
Block 12.5% 2 CM B
Undecided 0% 11 K RS EM T CV K CML JW AK S RH

16 of 27 people have voted (59%)

CM

Callum Macdonald
Block
Sat 18 Jan 2020 12:47PM

More tracking by google seems like the very opposite direction of what I’d consider a good idea. I think analytics are a dark path to surveillance, and we’d be better to ask people in surveys where they choose to answer explicitly than to spy on people. Unless we have an explicit “opt in” where people explicitly say “yes, track me with google analytics”.

ZD

Zach Dunton
Agree
Sat 18 Jan 2020 1:16PM

The data is anonymized, and will give us insight into user behavior. Maybe we could consider a less ethically dubious tool if there is one.

VRS

Veroca R. Sala
Agree
Sat 18 Jan 2020 1:57PM

Useful. I support the initiative although im not familiar with google analytics

K

Kris
Disagree
Sat 18 Jan 2020 3:11PM

There are so many better tools that don't send everyone's data to the colorful advertising giant

For example https://usefathom.com/

KW

Karlo Walz
Disagree
Sat 18 Jan 2020 4:17PM

I don‘t see any use why we should have this google tracking done. I do have a lot of google analytics experience and this us useful if you do have in full visitors which are not kniwn or knowable. I think thus is not the case, therefor no use!
In addition you need to nominate a „ Datenschutzbeauftragten“ und müsst eine Wiederspruchsmöglichkeit einräumen, gegen tracking etc... logischerweise wird batürlich jeder einzeln getrackt, metadaten ohne Ende etc..

H

Henrik 🤖
Disagree
Sat 18 Jan 2020 5:28PM

YES to tracking
NO to Google Analytics

I believe we should be driving the alternative-tech culture by using open source tools, although it might be a bit trickier to setup and read.

We're also trying to move away from facebook and we're using open source software. Using GA for a community with the values that we stand for is a step backwards.

S

Stephan
Disagree
Sun 19 Jan 2020 10:21PM

🤯🙈

B

Bobschi
Block
Sun 19 Jan 2020 10:37PM

As long as Google is on this proposal it should not go through. I also think you want tracking, you should specify what questions you want to answer and exactly what you need to track to answer them. Just blanket track everything via GA is lazy and does more harm than good

M

monarchin
Disagree
Sun 19 Jan 2020 10:47PM

Aside from me not liking any data shared... why is this of relevance? To the first question: You couldn't stop inviting poeple via all the usual channels anyway because radical inclusion. To the second one: There is so much stuff to read through for every burn, i really don't see what it would matter to me that i have one button to make my log in easier or so. As long as the info has some sensible order to it people should be able to navigate.

KB

Klaus Botschen
Disagree
Mon 20 Jan 2020 9:17AM

As burner, I would never stop people doing things that I consider bad. But still, my advice is against tracking, as not tracking is a democratic base principle. For the love or humans I would not track.

W

walto Sat 18 Jan 2020 5:09PM

Thanks for all the comments folks! So the reason why I propose to track better, is because I feel that we do a lot to try to get (new) ppl engaged with our content, especially Talk & Realities, but we do not have a clear visibility on how that actually works (email, facebook, notifications,...?).

The solutions on surveys etc. don't really work:
* just asking the people that are involved gives a very skewed picture. It is the same issue we have with a lot of things: we just end up asking the same people over and over, staying in a bubble. It usually is about engaging the people that are not very involved.
* In addition, it is a lot more work to distill learnings about how to engage newer people with content through interviews or surveys vs. just looking at a summary of how ppl landed on the website, Talk or Realities. to be honest: won't be done.

The reality is more that if we decide not to track, that we just keep shooting in the dark on how to engage (new) people with the content. We all try hard, but it would be nice to know if newsletters work better than facebook or google search or Loomio emails or ... It could inform our actions better and motivate more to do so.

Given the many concerns about Google (although I personally don't get why this is an issue), happy to look at tracking alternatives. So we currently have suggested:
- https://usefathom.com/
- matomo (where we track the website & the dreams platform)

W

Poll Created Tue 21 Jan 2020 12:33PM

Track via Matomo - open source + anonymized Closed Thu 23 Jan 2020 12:00PM

Outcome
by walto Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:48PM

The conclusion seems to be that there is a general consensus that Matomo is the right tracking solution for us. Further discussion in the thread. Feel free to continue contributing, your input is appreciated.

Next steps:
- setup Matomo to anonymize the data (Waldo)
- remove Google Analytics from the website (Waldo)
- implement Matomo on Talk (@abelstobias )
- implement Matomo on Realities (unknown)
- formulate a proposal on who gets access to Matomo (unkown)

I would like to propose we track using Matomo, because:
* 100% data ownership
* open source
* No tracking of personal data
* we do not need a Datenschutzerklärung notice to agree to given that we anonymize the data

Why track?

= To understand how to facilitate more online participation in the co-creation process.
By:
* improving the online tools we use (website, Dreams, Talk, Realities, emails)
* Increasing the relevance of these tools to the community, particularly for new people
* Motivating people to involve the community more with the information from Talk, Realities,… via different channels.

More info on surveys & more specifics regarding what data would be useful, is in the thread.

Next steps

When we get a general ok from the experts & people affected, we will roll it out on Loomio 2.0, correct it’s implementation on Dreams & disable Google Analytics on our website.

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
Agree 66.7% 6 C DU ZD T AK W
Abstain 22.2% 2 RS DR
Disagree 11.1% 1 KW
Block 0.0% 0  
Undecided 0% 12 K T EM CV K CML JW K S RH S H

9 of 21 people have voted (42%)

KW

Karlo Walz
Disagree
Wed 22 Jan 2020 11:18AM

I am against tracking! I do not see why at all we need tracking and the arguments I can read are in no way valid. passive usage of a talk wensite is of no importance for any project but only active membership and for tjis you can count comments by day.
emais you can count in the same way.
website you get the number of usage from your host.
user tracking also finally needs a „datenschutzerklärung“ and a „datenschutzbeauftragten“ for every tool you are using.

C

Cairn (Clément)
Agree
Thu 23 Jan 2020 7:08AM

With anonymized data, I see this as a great opportunity to understand the community's behavior better and engage/empower them in the best ways possible.
Side note, being a business analyst in the default world, I'd be happy to help analyzing all this data and present it nicely to the community!

RS

Remy Schneider
Abstain
Thu 23 Jan 2020 9:49AM

I would like to know:
- who has access to this data --> is it a closed group in the Robot ministry or are we opening this up to everyone
- how do we have to notify people that we are tracking them? Does that mean that everyone will have to opt-in? Is there a clear way to do this and who will take responsiblity over this question?
- if, say, we have to have terms and conditions that detail we are using tracking - and there are questions about this - who owns/responds? Do we exclude that person?

AK

Alex Kaos
Agree
Thu 23 Jan 2020 10:14AM

I believe in Data. And if we've truly anonomized and don't collect sensative information (not even including the fact that we have no intention of selling it), then the collection is in the interest of participatory culture.

W

walto Wed 22 Jan 2020 1:57PM

@karlowalz I struggle to understand how I can engage with your arguments.
First of all, how so are the arguments used in no way valid? What is not valid about " understand how to facilitate more online participation in the co-creation process" & the more explicit goals & metrics specified in the thread and in the proposal? I spent a good amount of time trying to make it clearer. A blanket statement that they are not valid, does not contribute to making a better decision.

And then going into your arguments:
- what is passive usage? If this is meant towards people reading etc. I would argue it is super relevant. It would give a better insight on the actual relevance of Talk in engaging new people (if even to just read posts).
- you mention ways we can already track, I do not see how?
- we do not need a Datenschutzerklärung when we anonymize the data, which is what Matomo provides, apologies, that could have been clearer in the proposal.

T

Tibo Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:15AM

@remyschneider
Thanks for your concerns, maybe i can answer a little bit, but I'm not an expert on this topic though and with DSVGO it gets increasingly complicated

  • who has access to this data --> is it a closed group in the Robot ministry or are we opening this up to everyone
    => first technically everybody with root access would have access to the tracking data. i think matomo can anonymise the data immediately if set up right maybe @waldo already knows more?

  • how do we have to notify people that we are tracking them? Does that mean that everyone will have to opt-in? Is there a clear way to do this and who will take responsiblity over this question?
    => the notification would need to be right according to GDPR and our settings. There are multiple ways to set it up, anonymising the data first makes stuff much easier. But the users need to be granted several rights which also can be found in the link below. In the end the set up needs to be right according to GDPR. Mistakes in set up or handling data could happen

  • if, say, we have to have terms and conditions that detail we are using tracking - and there are questions about this - who owns/responds? Do we exclude that person?
    => mabe we need a Datenschutzbeauftragen for that

W

walto Thu 23 Jan 2020 2:16PM

Thanks for the questions @remyschneider and the clarifications from @abelstobias:
1. who has access to the data: anyone who is given a login to Matomo. This would probably require a follow-up proposal, but I would ideally allow anyone who is interested to see the data since it would be anonymous
2. We do not need to notify people that we track them, nor do we need to have terms & conditions that we track. we do not need a Datenschutzerklärung notice to agree to, given that we anonymize the data

To go a bit more technical:
- I would go into Matomo and set it up that the IP address is anonymized.
- by doing that, nobody can be identified
- since we would thus not be collecting private data, we do not need a notice according to GDPR regulations.

W

walto Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:51PM

@zachdunton are you looking after Realities? Would it be possible for you to include Matomo in Realities as well? Or is that @henrik who would look after this?

W

walto Fri 24 Jan 2020 7:17PM

Data tracked via Matomo is now anomyzed, so safe to use.

However, I need your help. I notice that I am still seeing data on our website in google analytics, but I cannot find the google analytics code on our website... Help would be appreciated. Thank you.