Mon 22 Feb 2021 8:40PM

MONEYZ - Budget and Finance of a Pandemic Event - Capacity

AK Alex Kaos Public Seen by 31

Now for everyone's favorite topic --- "Cash flo get the money..... Dolla dolla bill yo'"


I have run the numbers a few times, and I can't see a way of making a 500 person event working now that we have First Aid and Covid in the budget.

We will run the event at full capacity (1000 pax), and try to adapt funds to compensate in the event of a cancellation. We must trust in the mighty gods of insurance and the social state!

Ticket prices will likely be 85€ per head. 10% of tickets will be sold at half full price for low-income persons (42,50€ for 100 persons)

The Situation

So I have run some preliminary numbers, reflected from our last successful event and made a draft Budget for Kiez Burn 2021.

There are still many unknown variables, and so this work isn't settled, but some interesting elements have arisen.

We are planning 2 scenarios of event capacity, depending on the conditions of the pandemic leading closer to the event:

1000 persons

500 Persons

This in theory isn't much of a problem, except when it comes to budgeting. A 500 person event does not cost half of a 1000 person event. And this leads to some complications.

With current projections (based on previous events), and with the added costs of first aid and covid this year, we could have a comfortable and successful event at 1000 persons.

If we have to run at 500 persons, it is currently projected that we will not have any money for Dreams.

I am charged with protecting the treasure of Kiez Burn, so that it can be spent on Art and Culture. And this situation displeases me. I want to plan for the worst case, and revel in the joy of the best case when it happens (I call it positive pessimism, or possimism)

The Proposal

Plan for a 500 person event. Adjust the budget and more importantly, ticket price, to make an event that can fulfill the dreams of some budding your artists making their shaky first steps into the world of creative expression and sharing.

Currently projected needed ticket price for a 500 person event would be 120€. And that is with minimal Dreams..

This still maintains our traditional Low-income system, in which 10% of our tickets are sold at 50% price, for individuals in more challenging circumstances (so 60€ low income ticket price)

In this scenario we could roll out more tickets (500>) closer to the date if it is possible, and more importantly, safe to do so.

In the best case scenario, we would have a lot of extra money in the KB account. Some potential things we could do with this are:

  • Redistribute the money to Dreamers who have had their dream fulfilled (the receive more money on top of the funds that were approved through the dreams platform)

  • We distribute the funds to Dreamers who nearly made it on the Dreams platform.

  • We save the money and invest it in another smaller event later in the year.

  • We use the money for an in-Berlin use of the Dreams platform. Making Kiez Burn a provider of Art Stipends here in the city for a much wider range of potential projects.

  • We save the money and use it to buy land......

So in the interests of transparency, here is the pre-budget (UNFINISHED AND INCOMPLETE) for your perusal. I invite you to comment on it or here if you have any thoughts o suggestions.

Especially if you have ways to make things cheaper so that we can put more money into Dreams. Just please be mindful that if you are proposing ways of making things cheaper, the only guaranteed way to make it happen, is to drive the initiative yourself. For which I would love to give my full support!

If we plan for a 1000 person event, then the probability that we have to pull the plug closer to the date and lose lots of money is higher.

And for those curious, a 499 person event has different legal requirement and costs, which is why we're not considering an i.e. a 738 person event at this stage...

The Ask

Would you be willing to pay a little more for Kiez Burn this year (~120€) in order to increase the chance that we will have an event?

The downside would be that we may end up with money in the account we would have to find something interesting to do with.....

A Final Note

Money is a sensitive issue. It can trigger emotions and responses in us that may not highlight our wisest and most rational selves.

If you find yourself feeling negative emotions towards me, this proposal, or towards Kiez Burn as a result of reading this post or reviewing the budget, I encourage a response. But please invest an extra 14% more time in making your response as respectful and considerate as possible.

Remember that the purpose of the advice process is for you to advice me to make the best decision I can in a roll I volunteered for, not to share your opinion. It's a very subtle difference, but please keep it in mind.

Disrespectful or assaultive comments will simply be ignored.


Alex Kaos Tue 23 Feb 2021 11:50AM

Ok, moved it, thank you.

  • The 1200 persons was a typo. The calculations are made for 100 people (it's been updated now)

  • This still maintains our traditional Low-income system, in which 10% of our tickets are sold at 50% price, for individuals in more challenging financial circumstances (so 50€-60€ low income ticket price)


Alex Kaos Wed 24 Feb 2021 8:39AM

In the event that a 500 person event can't be held, then any official 'public event' would be cancelled. The possibility for a Kiez Burn e.V Mitgliedversamlung still sits on the table for a much smaller group however.

I would think it wise to move forward with planning for a 500 person event, and expanding the number of participants closer to the date (if it is allowed and safe to do so).
However, It is becoming increasingly difficult to make a 500 person event work with our current format (specifically due to the costs of, power, first aid and covid). Which might mean we simply have to roll the die with a 1000 person event and simply hope we can pull it off.... So complex!!!

Either way, we need to make sure that the insurance company/German state will cover our costs in the event of a late regulatory cancellation. Otherwise the whole thing is off......


Jan Thomas Thu 25 Feb 2021 7:18PM

Cool, totally agree with your suggestion of moving forward with planning based on minimal number of participants required to make the numbers work. The only area that I see as needing more thinking is this question of what happens in case we get cancelled. I have no clue which insurance would cover that - my understanding is that our normal event insurance is primarily about liability cover and has no support for cases like that - maybe @Holger Wessels can confirm this and/or check with our broker?

From our discussions with Freiland we understand that there is also no straightforward path to getting the state to help in case the event can't happen and you're stuck with costs - there are some programs that you can apply for that will help, but it's complicated and comes with lots of conditions and bureaucracy. Freiland is trying to figure it out themselves, so if they find a path we'll have the benefit of finding out - but I wouldn't bank on it.

In summary: I think we should plan on anyone coming to the rescue, but instead try to limit commitments and keep the risk low by making contracts in a way where ideally we only pay if the event actually happens - which i would hope should be fully doable for some aspects like security, first aid & fire service or at least partially doable (i.e. that we don't need to pay in full if stuff never gets delivered) for others like power or toilets. Of course there will be some costs like ticketing & payment fees which you simply can't get back - but e.g. for ticketing it might be smart to wait till quite late before starting sales. And in the end if we need to refund tickets i think we'd be able to get support from the community, e.g. if we ask people to donate half of their ticket price to help cover our losses then we'd probably get a pretty good response - at least this approach worked well last year for a bunch of events.


Owl Thu 25 Feb 2021 10:14PM

The request is on its way.

An additional cancellation insurance (for everything besides Corona (-outbreaks?)) is oriented on ticket sales and would cost between 1400 and 1700€. The broker mentioned "cancellation by authorities" as an included cause, but I'm not sure if that would include "cancellation by authorities because of Corona" ... The last years we could move the signage of the contract pretty close to the event itself (after getting and handing handing in the letter of intent for the permit), that might be our best option. But I've also asked for the cancellation policy.


Franzi Fri 26 Feb 2021 9:56AM

Hey @The Lord of Fire (Schatzmeister) thanks for the great summary! I think increasing the ticket price is fine as long as we explain why (and we have been super transparent with that in the past) and from an inclusion perspective keep a low income ticket. Further, we had the option in the past that people buy a ticket and can then donate additional money for dreams. Will we have the same feature again?


Veroca R. Sala Thu 25 Feb 2021 5:54PM

Thanks, Thanks!

random thoughts about this:

I don't want to divert the discussion here, only saying I come to think this year would be a good opportunity to make that radical and risky ticket sale modality proposed last year, given there are already 50 % (or more?) chance the event will not happen as we imagine it.

COVID has brought so many changes to our lives and also, the way we plan the event... I only think that this whole thing happening and all uncertainties these times might allow us to be more open to receiving what is there, thus accepting what we are as a community. With that proposal, we might be able to gather all moneyz (or not). The proposal might need some tweaks and adaptation still.

Especially if you have ways to make things cheaper so that we can put more money into Dreams. Just please be mindful that if you are proposing ways of making things cheaper, the only guaranteed way to make it happen, is to drive the initiative yourself. For which I would love to give my full support!

To say to that👆:

  • I am not up for carrying out ticket sales (MG that will be a disaster, no one wants me managing money, please, never let me! ), also this is not the thread to discuss this, maybe be better if whoever shared this thought ( or not) would simply react to this comment with a thumbs up or down.

  • I did talk with Callum and said he would be willing to carry out the TECH side. And someone else could do the talking 🤓

    Am I willing to pay more?:

    Even not having a job atm, no savings, not a government benefit I'm sure I'll find a way to pay for my ticket and drop a few more bucks on top, I so wanna kiezburn... but well... this is my personal intention. I think it is just hard to collect all community members' opinions about this, and it will be hard to have everyone happy.

    The decision to be made, in my opinion, and for the sake of actually having an event: if an 85 bucks ticket doesn't cover the costs, then we either upper the price or we have a burn without power for instance!

    Leftover Money?

    Let's buy land!, and make weekly spontaneous campouts all summer around !!!!

Thanks for doing the numbers and investing so much in this!


Jan Thomas Tue 23 Feb 2021 5:26PM

Thank you Lord of Finance, we bow to your almighty powers! Just one question from my side - does this basically mean that if an event with 500 people will not be allowed, then KiezBurn won't happen i.e. we cancel? And to spin it further - would that mean that all planning would move forward based on the 500 people capacity, and only in case more is allowed super close to the time would we consider increasing?


Cris Tue 23 Feb 2021 9:40AM

Praise you, oh Lord of Finances!

I entrust myself to you! 🙌

Besides entrusting:

  • personally, I'd be willing to spend a bit more to make it happen in the 500 ppl, bzw. possimistic and safer scenario.

  • This actually belongs to an advice process of its own, but in the nice case of being swimming in money, I tend to the founding the "nearly made it" dreams and land investing options.


  • the (unfinished and incomplete) pre-vor-ante-proto-budget bases on a 1200 pax scenario, if I understood it right, are the other possible mentioned scenarios numbers (500 and 1.000) still to come?

  • do these magic numbers of yours (particularly in the 500 hippies case) still include the low income tickets? If yes, are they still counted as 40€/ticket? This topic I find crucial.

Oh, and, for the shake of Talk Hygiene: would it be ok for you to move this thread to the Advice Processes Talk Group?

Thank you for all this work! ❤️


Jessie Tue 23 Feb 2021 7:36AM

Thanks for your good work and well explained proposal. I don't see an issue to spend a little bit more money for the ticket. I guess the most people are just glad if the event can happen.

In case, we have some money left, I find the forecast interesting to save the money for some land.