Location 2020 - requirements + search
A Decision has been made
Further location discussions will take place in a new thread, since the search & finding phase has been concluded
Update: we are collecting input from the community on potential venues and their suitability to host KB2020. Please check the list, add GREAT venues and your comments on suitability if you have been to any of the venues listed. The location sheet is linked, SCOUTS meet to make shortlist by 13.01
Short Summary of Space Needs
Preferred dates for KB 2020: 16-21 June
Size of location: Approx 10-15 Hectares minimum
Preferably few permanent structures, clean space and has diverse landscape
Meeting regarding site: 7 January (tentative) 2020
Dear Kiez Burninverse,
We have lost our location and date at Freiland, as many of you know. We need YOUR help find a new location - so dust off that contacts list and let's get going. We are happy to start visiting new sites ASAP. The first meeting on this will be 7 January.
RSVP to the Facebook event: https://www.facebook.com/events/582483099233676/
We need your ideas and contacts at the meeting or before!!
We lost the space due with noise/neighbours from the sound camps, plus our event so close to Freiland's own event. Yes, it is possible that we still have the Freiland location, but it would need to be much later in the year. And this has complications because...
As a co-creationist event, we rely completely on volunteers. Later in the summer the schedules become very busy (which means people are not available) and late in summer everyone is already burned out from all the partying they have already done.
An overview of needs
It would be ideal if the space was:
Free from 16-21 June
Has a good relationship with the local area (so we can actually get a permit)
is approximately 10-15 hectares
has very few if any permanent structures
has diverse landscape (e.g., trees and field, etc)
is less than 4 hours from Berlin
wants to build a long-term relationship with us
VERY NICE TO HAVES
water on the site or near the site (lake, pond, etc)
Is remote from neighbors and villages
the site owners will allow us to run our own event
not so many events on it's site throughout the year
If you have strong opinions, please feel free to add to the list of requirements of nice-to-haves!
Possible locations & follow-up person
(please edit when relevant)
Kingdom of Muckwar - Henrik?
Jüterborg/Freqs of Nature (was previously fully booked)
Attila Klein Buckow - https://www.landflucht-festival.de/ - animals live on site - forestland
David Trümner from Fuchs & Hirsch UG (haftungsbeschränkt) from Uckeralm, he might have suggestions
Flugplatz Allstedt - potentially, but a lot of concrete... There is a nice area, but it is rather small for us, unless we are ok with concrete
Flugplatz Tultow (MonisRache) - never been
Ferropolis - not really, too dangerous + only concrete
Helen Beach Festival - Daniel Grabow - never been
Gelände des Arschcholio Festival bei Tollensesee - never been
Freakland: would definitely be possible, enough space, but lots of buildings and pre-existing general infrastructure,
Pütnitz Gelände - Pangea Festival - Eigentümer: Stadt Ribnitz Damgarten - they answered then that they do not want anything else to happen there
Berheider See - never been
Kiekebuschsee - would not recommend
Klingemühle, Friedland, Brandenburg, location of "Mit Dir" festival; looks nice, with lake, sound seems allowed: https://youtu.be/RKSIMBYLxAU and https://www.lakesidefilmfestival.com /// direct link to location: http://www.xn--klingemhle-geb.de/kontakt/
Freie Feldlage, Harzgerode. Been there at 250ppl event (David S), must be checked if it can host 1000 (on the website they say they can), and if any neighbours close-by. Founders are chilled. "Move Utopia" and "Undjetzt Konferenz" have been held there. http://www.gemeinschaftsstifter.info/
Zytanien, Lehrte, near Hannover. Been there at 3000ppl event (David S). A friendly community lives there, they regularly host big events. Permission, infrastructure and neighbour wise it should be a dream. Could easily save a ton of money on the electricity side. Maybe also storage available. https://www.zytanien.de
If 4h drive from Berlin is fine, as stated, definitely look into locations in Poland and Czech Republic.
Please see the Scouting Google Sheets Document with compiled information. There are three separate tabs you can click through with original list/ short list and other interesting sites or plots of land to buy.
Ilya Alexander Yacine Wed 18 Dec 2019 7:18AM
Yes I worked with them over the last 6 years and am in good contact with the founder. The new site will take a lot of work until its ready for usage. I told him that it might be beneficial to have some burners on-site because their basically productivity warriors ;)
Carsten Mon 20 Jan 2020 6:39PM
We also checked the size of the field and it looks very small. When we had the luxury of tons of options we decided to keep others - but decided to get in touch as the location search is not going well
Vlad Mon 20 Jan 2020 6:20PM
I did some further research, a m2 of property will costs around 0.5-1 euro, however it requires quite some commitment, most likely KB eV should take charge on this.
It also seems to be a very common scenario, there are a lot of small eV who explicitly get a land of 1-2 events a year after they been to the same time of situation as we are.
Jeff Spirlock Tue 21 Jan 2020 10:20AM
What is this obsession with a blank slate? I know lots of burners like this but I wonder if they've ever attended a burn with running potable water or power on site. Existing paved roads are a blessing if it rains a lot. To my understanding this event uses a centralized power source which is a HUGE LUXURY imo. Picking and choosing which luxuries aren't luxuries is pretty silly to me.
For example a venue we use in the US for a burn has several large barns on site they weren't using that allows us to store large art pieces in year round. We have similar arrangements with many festivals I've worked as well.
Not having to haul those art pieces onto site and pay for storage elsewhere frees up funds for other areas of the event. Not having to haul water on site reduces our carbon footprint and frees up space for people to bring more art. Having centralized power also reduces the carbon footprint and allows people to not bring gennies or petrol which frees up tons of space for other supplies. It also reduce noise pollution. A covered stage on site guarantees weather will not impact our ability to play music. Good roads when it rains means less damage to the property from having to pull out vehicles and trailers stuck in the mud. Every seen a tractor pull an RV from the mud? Infrastructure is not the enemy.
Jan Thomas Tue 21 Jan 2020 8:11AM
@vlad Freiland's interests are as you describe - they would like to develop their land and see it used and growing as a cultural hotspot... but in a long-lasting and sustainable way where it's supported by the local communities. And to ensure this we need to get better at managing the noise level, as otherwise events (with music) at this location don't have a future.
Jeff Spirlock Tue 21 Jan 2020 10:15AM
What kind of work needs to be done on site for it to be usable? Are they lacking equipment or manpower for said work to be done? I don't have equipment but I have a lot fo free time atm and so does my wife. I have heavy equipment operator experience, power tools experience and lot of logistical experience involving throwing festivals. She has helped me with on site builds in the past for a 2k and a 10k person festival.
Jeff Spirlock Tue 21 Jan 2020 10:41AM
Love the idea of purchasing property. If you changed the ticketing process to club memberships it could exempt the event from having to meet all the same requirements.
For example it's illegal to serve alcohol in most bars in the US past 2am. I had a private members club instead of selling nightly tickets we sold memberships. You couldn't buy a membership at the door 'technically' so we sold them online. As a private members club you can drink inside 24 hours a day 7 days a week. You can also allow members to bring in alcohol from offsite which is super illegal in most bars in the US. When all the bars closed at 0200 my club was the only venue in that city you could legally openly drink at a music venue between the hours of 0200-0700. I know this isn't the US but the level of bureaucracy and loopholes is quite similar. Any attorneys in the group that specialize in permitting and event/venue laws?
[deactivated account] Sat 18 Jan 2020 12:54PM
Dear @janthomas thank you for continuing to talk with Freiland. I think it's a great way forward to make peace with the neighbours, building on what we have and trying something different for one year. I'd be up for trying a different kind of KiezBurn to see what we come up with, as a community. It's a great challenge to tackle!
It's always easier to just leave a conflict or an awkward situation, but as burners, we can do better than that - would we not agree?
My "Ja" to a new location would be in case we plan to grow immensely (like, into a few thousands) at some point. Or if we feel like we like a new location every couple of years, as a community. In case of projected growth, the little hilly-valley spot we have now would not be a good long-term-relationship investment due to size.
I've left a few words in the separate "Sound of Music" thread too. The two seem connected. I developed a bit more on my own experience of loudness at our burn in 2019 and also reflected on how sweet the "Quiet Burn" challenge could be for us! :) <3 https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/23eZPYq0/the-sound-of-music-proposals
Jan Thomas Tue 21 Jan 2020 8:07AM
@alina we didn't have an open access policy for locals in the last years, but have been increasingly trying to integrate with them. We've given tickets to a few locals we know or come via Freiland, and we posted notes into 300 letter boxes letting them know about the event and inviting them for a tour on Saturday 2pm. About 15-20 people showed up for this, and spent a couple of hours walking the site with us and getting an impression - some of them we also gave bands to return again at night. We definitely should think more about how to be inclusive towards the neighbors so we don't get perceived as the loud people who come from the big city and do their own exclusive crazy loud stuff in their area.
Saskia Mon 20 Jan 2020 10:24AM
Hei @andreaparacucchi - what is the reason Kingdom of Muckwar is out of question?
I just received a mail from Alex / Wilde Möhre and they'd love to have us back. They are currently working on a sound agreement with the surroundings and it is looking good.
I would like to have some more information on why this specific location is crossed out. :)
Henrik 🤖 Sat 18 Jan 2020 8:02PM
Many of the options in the Spreadsheet are crossed out without any comment on the state of the location. Would be super cool to know why some places were ruled out
[deactivated account] Sun 19 Jan 2020 2:59PM
@vlad looks like Freiland are celebrating 10 years of their own festival this year. They seem to be also much into art, music, and other hippie stuff including leftist politics. It's understandable that they want to keep the spot for longer time and the relationships with neighbours and the local Amt neat. @janthomas do you know if we had a open access for the locals policy at KB 18&19? Did we communicate with them? Reach out to them? Did they get a free ticket access or an opportunity to visit us and check us out?
Ilya Alexander Yacine Tue 21 Jan 2020 10:42AM
Hi Smallmovez, as far as I know, they need more people with said skills. If you give me any contact touchpoint of yours I can connect you to them, I think your skills would be really helpful there. Are you on Facebook or WhatsApp? If not, E-Mail is also okay.
Jeff Spirlock Tue 21 Jan 2020 10:47AM
I bet it's easier to pay local law enforcement to ensure permits or lack of enforcement in Poland.
Jeff Spirlock Tue 21 Jan 2020 2:04PM
Jeff Spirlock on FB
(+32) 494 17 95 84 on WhatsApp, Viber, Telegram
walto Tue 21 Jan 2020 8:16PM
The e.V. could definitely act as a legal body. However, @vlad, the proposal can come from anyone. When there is the making of a proposal, the board of the e.V. will be more than happy to help out. However, I don't think there is capacity within the board to look for a location to buy & maintain, at this stage.
Jeff Spirlock Wed 22 Jan 2020 11:30PM
I think not considering Poland and Czech is a mistake. I'm confident in our ability to find someone who speaks the native language if the need arises.
Jeff Spirlock Wed 22 Jan 2020 11:37PM
What are the hours of operation for the sound of their current festival? I'm curious why this festival has worked for so long but they have a problem with Kiez. Sounds like someone isn't getting their payday they feel entitled too.
Bee Wed 22 Jan 2020 6:51PM
Hey thanks for the Intel! :) 👌🙏
The site should be 10 hectares minimum to allow for Kieze space and art. This is 100000m2. So some festival sites will be too small for us given that the layout is less traditional than regular sites.
In terms of Fusion, they will already have crew on site for Build for at least all of June if not sooner, which doesn't mean it isn't possible but does feel a little strange to share the site in that way.
For Poland and Czech Republic... These places could potentially hold cheaper options but nobody in the scouts team is confident in Polish, so we ruled that out (also thinking about dealing with beurocracy, police etc through a language barrier could cause issues. As well as driving over the border might cause issues for some for a variety of reasons).
walto Fri 24 Jan 2020 6:58PM
amazing!! Thanks so much for the summary @ancka ! Super clear as well!
Could I suggest you edit the thread on top that Remy started and you add in your findings so it is super easy for people to find the current status on Freiland?
CJ Yetman Thu 23 Jan 2020 9:43AM
I’m strongly opposed to moving the event to another country. The whole border crossing fiasco with Garbicz is just not worth it. Maybe this event would not be scrutinized as much, but maybe it would in the long run.
Bee Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:47AM
Bugger let's hope the field is an option, it's 7 hectares and without it would be a small somewhat difficult space to burn in. 🤞
Bee Thu 23 Jan 2020 2:34PM
Feel free to join our effort if you want to call any venues in Poland/Czech to find out any possible venues available for our date! If we have solid options there we can consider! ❤️
Jeff Spirlock Wed 22 Jan 2020 7:23PM
@waldo If someone found the land and someone else was willing to live out there and maintain it, would that make it a more reasonable proposal? Then the e.V. would just need to purchase said land.
Amihay Gonen Wed 22 Jan 2020 10:11PM
The organiser of Entropie festival also there and a mutual friend, said the site at Klingemuhle is full this year for music events. Was definitely a nice site.
Jan Thomas Thu 23 Jan 2020 12:09PM
Hi @smallmovez, the issue comes from the fact that our preferred date is only 2 weeks after Freiland have their own festival. There were no problems when only one event was on - and we also didn't hear about complaints after our first year.
But in 2019 Freiland extended their own event to 3 days, and we had more & bigger sound systems when following in close succession. We learned from the Amt that they already had a few complaints for Freiland in 2019, but when we started running in the middle of the week only 1.5 weeks later it caused a larger number of locals to go "this is too much" and complain.
Understandably Freiland are prioritizing their own festival, even though they also want to grow the use of their land for other events - but it's also a learning process for them to figure out how to do this in alignment with the neighbors.
walto Thu 23 Jan 2020 11:44PM
The field is not part of the Gelände they own. That would be something where we need to contact the owner of that field (owner is unknown to me, but we did talk to Alex about it last time). Without the field, the site does not make sense for Kiez Burn.
walto Sun 26 Jan 2020 11:14PM
could you please add this to the thread? Edit the thread so the thread description makes sense. Imagine being a new person joining this thread. :)
Ilya Alexander Yacine Tue 17 Dec 2019 12:24PM
I talked to him, apparently Henrik has already contacted him as well. Alex told me he is asking the City council for permission Details to see if it could work.
The new Gelände is far bigger than the wilde möhre site, so it's definitly around 5-6000. We should check it out once Alex gives us green light.
Bee Tue 7 Jan 2020 3:34PM
Heya. I was at Klingenmühle 2019 for Entropie Festival. It already has a lot of buildings on site and only two larger open fields for Playa space from what I saw. I really liked the space but not sure if it's as much of a blank canvas as KB would like.
Theres also a small road that goes through the site but wasn't any traffic, more like a woodland lane. My partner is on the festival team and good friends with some of the collective though if we wanted to get some direct contacts. ❤️
walto Sat 11 Jan 2020 5:32PM
Thanks for taking the next steps on this Jan! Really useful overview with a lot to think about and decide on.
Vlad Sat 18 Jan 2020 2:37PM
Amazing work @janthomas , mean it.
What is the interest of freiland, i see that they have interest but also do not want to endanger their own event there (money, participation, community)?
Will they accept much less money for a burn with no sound (so we can redirect the funds for art)?
Freiland is a good fit for KB, but generally speaking it is not so good for a normal event - missing infrastructure, bad connection, not flat.
[deactivated account] Mon 20 Jan 2020 5:49PM
Field becomes mud if it Rauns. Amihay was on Location 2/3 years ago.
walto Tue 21 Jan 2020 8:18PM
@carsten and @andreaparacucchi Kingdom of Muckwar is a forest mainly, with a lake. So I am not sure if @amihay is talking about the same location.
Here I documented the insights regarding Kingdom of Muckwar: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/oylbkFt6/location-2020/6
I would say it definitely is a candidate, if we can rent the field next to the forest (which definitely is not too wet)
Jeff Spirlock Fri 24 Jan 2020 3:00PM
@cjyetman Can you elaborate on Garbicz? I thought there was no border control.
CJ Yetman Fri 24 Jan 2020 4:13PM
There is extreme border control, both ways, at least if you take the bus. Adds at least 1.5 hours to the travel time, and in my opinion is rather dehumanizing.
walto Sun 26 Jan 2020 11:09PM
Given that the meeting was announced only on Facebook and with a very vague description, I would challenge that this meeting has gotten the required exposure to take a final decision on this super important topic. Maybe as a goal of the meeting, it could be to agree on a proposal for a location?
walto Sun 26 Jan 2020 11:14PM
could you please add this to the thread? Edit the thread so the thread description makes sense. Imagine being a new person joining this thread. :)
Jan Thomas Thu 30 Jan 2020 9:34PM
Also talked with Alex from Muckwar last night. The situation with the Amt Altdöbern is the following - even though it's super close to the Wilde Möhre Gelände, that always went through a different Amt - I.e. the Amt responsible for Muckwar has no experience in dealing with events like ours. Alex handed in an theoretical event application a few weeks ago to get them thinking and test the waters - He's committed to following up on this and having feedback from the Amt for our next catchup on Tuesday 4 Feb. He didn't want us to start talking with the Amt by ourselves before he's heard back from them, and would like to start a collaborative process (similar to how we had it with Freiland) from that point onward.
We also discussed a bit the potential scenarios regarding the Amt:
The main question here is also the sound - in general all we do is an event on private property, which they have no grounds to deny us a permit for if we're quiet.
So depending on how they will react to his request in general, and specifically regarding the allowed sound levels this should shape our strategy going forward...
Option A: hopefully we can go the officially reglemented way and also start with approaching and including the neighbors from the start, i.e. go down the route of doing everything with support and approval of the locals
Option B: if they are not supportive his suggestion is to just create facts by having the event without any mention of sound and see how we go... which sounds a bit dangerous to me, but let's see. i got the feeling that he's of the opinion that you can't please all locals anyways and just have to push through with it, probably shaped somewhat from their experience with the horrible Wilde Möhre neighbors.
Anyways, my view is that we wait until he gets feedback from the Amt which he should have by next Tuesday, and assess next steps based on that. Happy to discuss, of course :-)
Saskia Tue 17 Dec 2019 7:36AM
You talking Wilde Moehre Alex? (I actually do not know if he is the founder of WM, but definetly the face I connect most with the event)
In case some are unaware of this: The very first KB 2017 happened at the former Wilde Möhre Gelände. The old Gelände wasn't ideal because of its' circular shape & other reasons.
I have heard about the new area as well. Additional information: The capacity of the new Gelände seems to be around 5000 according to 'my source'. Which might be a huge overestimation, but still, it is supposed to be bigger than the old one and big enough to host us.
So that might be an interesting option and easy to organize a side trip.
Remy Schneider Tue 17 Dec 2019 5:58PM
Hi Ilya, thanks for the idea! We have actually been to Muckwar before (the name of the new project from the WM guys) - super cool that you have a great connection with them too! Let's see what they say
walto Fri 20 Dec 2019 5:04PM
Since we did the first Kiez Burn @the Wilde Möhre Gelände, they also know and trust us. We got out with a very positive experience, from both sides. So definitely a good basis to work from.
walto Tue 17 Dec 2019 9:19PM
Also been to Muckwar before, and if we are able to rent the Wiese next to the forest, from the person owning that flat grass space, then Muckwar could potentially work as a location (screenshot attached)
Detail pictures: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B8TP6cKFfx3UeG5RNlY3dUJ1bkE
Our pictures: https://photos.app.goo.gl/RlSTK6VyZsuODS7V2
Ezequiel Muns Sun 12 Jan 2020 8:58AM
This isn’t a public viewing link, could you repost with public viewing enabled?
Erin Jeavons-Fellows Mon 17 Feb 2020 6:50PM
The KB2020 location team wish to gather the broader voice of the community, reaching all the channels and put out a survey before the final decision will be made. The survey will be active until this Friday 21st February. It should take 2 mins to complete.
Click here to give your feedback now! https://www.surveymonkey.de/r/TYJ5YB6
[deactivated account] Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:41PM
UPDATES FROM MUKWAR:
Email from Alex:
i just talked an hour to the guy from the "bau- und ordnungsamt" from Altdöbern. They are willing to work with us and they are rather positiv. However they are also very insecure on the subject of hosting events and all the legal issues regarding the topic. We agreed on further talks with the Ordnungsamt in Drebkau which hosts wilde möhre (so that they get some more knowledge). They also told me that the two ppl working in the Ordnungsamt will be leaving soon and they don't have new ppl. yet. So they don't have the necessary knowledge and also leck employees.
This is somewhat similar to Drekbau in the early days. The chance here is to do it right from the start. As long as our actions don't piss of ppl too much, we will be fine. In this particular situation we basically have a first free shot. For the years to follow, they will measure us on this years experience.
AND I also talked to the "Forst" for the woods. They also lack experience with the topic. They didn't even want to do the "Waldumwandlung". They were pretty convinced, we don't need the "umwandlung". And I made no effort to convince him otherwise. However I wrote an e-mail to summarize the agreement.
This all looks quiet easy to be honest. None of the ppl I talked too had any subjections. We'd be free to go i guess.
I managed just now to talk to him and it seems both neighbours are willing to rent. He is still trying to figure out the money issue and he told me he will try to reach both neighbours tomorrow to find out, but he doubts it would be more than a couple fo thousand Euros each.
walto Thu 30 Jan 2020 9:59PM
A Decision has been made
Further location discussions will take place in a new thread, since the search & finding phase has been concluded
The thread has been updated.
[deactivated account] Wed 29 Jan 2020 3:58PM
I have just spoken to Alex of Wilde Möhre who told me he'll do anything is his power to find out if the neighbours will be 100% willing to rent us the space and at which conditions as well.
Jan should contact him for what concerns regulations and permits.
Alex has been invited as well to join our next Zoom meeting of Tuesday February 4th.
Jeff Spirlock Sat 25 Jan 2020 7:33PM
A bit of background about myself. This all started for me with my desire to prevent sound camps from being silenced at Kiez Burn. I have worked doing live sound for over 20 years. I am an audio engineer, lighting designer, DJ and event logistics coordinator. I have been involved with burns ranging from 400 people to 70,000. I’ve been involved with underground raves in abandoned warehouses to 5 day long 120,000 person festivals with 10 stages utilizing multi-million dollar budgets. I’ve worked in every department of a music festival I could get involved with over the last 10 years, which is just about all of them at this point. I’ve also worked with multiple world famous nightclubs.
I recently attended a workshop hosted by Remy & Waldo regarding several interlinked issues that Kiez Burn was facing. The workshop itself was teaching the Advice Process (AP) in which community discussions can take place following a structured process to adapt a community driven proposal. I found the workshop very helpful for me to understand some of the background as to how the current climate surrounding Kiez has come to be. I’ve been doing my best to do more listening than talking as I am new to Berlin and Kiez. After joining Talk and reading all the current topics I decided to turn to the Burner Community at large and get a broader view of how Burners view the concept of a Silent Burn.
I posed a question.
Have you ever heard of or been to a silent burn?
I would like to note at this point that no one had ever been to an intentionally silent burn or even heard of one. I did find one burn (THAT NO LONGER EXISTS) that had zero amplified sound but not because it was forbidden. Many people referenced Rainbow Gatherings as being a Silent Burn, so if a SIlent Burn sounds like your type of thing maybe Google your nearest Rainbow Gathering they are worldwide.
There are many factors to take into consideration when viewing the data I compiled. Here are just a few details I find pertinent, there are absolutely more factors. These burns are from various regions in the US and some are more remote than others. Firefly (New York) and Apogaea (Colorado) already have very restrictive sound policies in place because of the surrounding communities and/or venue restrictions. Freezer Burn happened last weekend so very few people responded. Love Burn (Miami, Florida) or Burning Flipside (Austin, Texas) have a large sound system culture and the cities themselves are leaders in the US electronic music scene. Some of these burns are in the mountains and some are in very flat places which impacts how sound travels. In considering all these differences I noticed an underlying theme.
Since a Silent Burn does not exist to my knowledge, the discussion became more about whether or not one would attend such an event. Or their general opinion of this concept. All these burns have existing sound policies but only about half of them seem to be strictly enforced. I did my best to categorize the responses in these graphs in the link below.
Yes, they would attend.
No, that is stupid.
Quieter Burn (overwhelming support for this idea)
Referenced the Rainbow Gathering (which could be viewed as next level Snark)
Graphs showing Question Data
(Link in PDF below)
I find it important to address the implications of noise pollution. One person brought up the point that certain Emergencies Rooms at Hospitals have Sound Policies to stop all the chaos of beeping to give the patients reprieve from all those loud noises for set hours each day. Studies have shown this to be beneficial to the overall health of the patients.There were many concerns expressed on how thumping techno dominating the sound scape limits other auditory experiences people come to burns to enjoy. In communities where sound has become an issue I view an Educated & Informed Sound Policy enforced by a Sound Marshal as required infrastructure. Here are two links to some basic guidelines that could be adapted for Kiez by relevant bodies.
(Link in PDF below)
Sound Camp Application
(Link in PDF below)
That brings me to the 11 principles. Are we really being Inclusive to the Community by moving venues vs adapting our event to make the neighbors feel like they are active Participants in this discussion? We could practice Immediacy and adapt to their concerns and implement changes to reflect our values of Participation. I challenge the entire Berlin Burner Community (as I’m aware a group is already doing this) to Radically Include this Community of year round residents in the planning and future of Kiez Burn. Maybe allocating some tickets specifically for the people who live there to come view what is happening at Kiez. I can’t help but think about how someone who knows nothing about Burning Man or Kiez Burn may be poorly informed by a quick Google search of what is happening out there. These would be FREE tickets to be given to influential invested bodies of the Freiland Community or anyone who lives there. Numbers to be decided based on interest. From my experience locals do not come and camp on their first visit, they come out for a few hours. It is important they feel welcome so they can see we have principles. Often this has resulted in some of them buying tickets in the future. We have even provided a schedule guiding them toward some of the optimal times to view the event in motion, Burn Night being one idea. Witnessing functionality in the daytime has been in higher attendance in my past experiences.
The fact the Freiland Community is willing to have us back says a lot to me. The fact they already host their own festival out there says to me the community is willing if we take their lives into consideration. I think it would be wise to continue developing this relationship with Freiland. Maybe we need to hire the professionals the AMT in Freiland recommends to put money back into their community regarding future sound applications. We would provide them with our already existing guidelines so they can be aware of our existing structure. Maybe I am wrong and this venue is a horrible spot and you will need to move in 2021. That was my original impression as an outsider that defaulted to past event organizing experience before I learned more about the situation in full.
What is my Dream?
I want to introduce Silent Disco Infrastructure to Kiez Burn. My idea would be to allow 3-6 Sound Camps each with their own Silent Disco Transmitter. 800 Silent Disco Headphones, each headset has 3 channels. They are available in different frequencies so essentially we could operate 2 systems each with 3 channels to include 6 sound camps. This would also include chargers and other necessary infrastructure such as bins for storage, racks for organization during the event, canopy, table, chairs, etc. This would need 1-2 volunteers per shift to operate during the event. FreeRange Disco is a not for profit Full-Time Burner Inspired Theme Camp with a Silent Disco that attends many burns throughout the US each year and people love it. FRD runs out of 300 headsets (they have since increased to 500) quickly and at that point they don't really need someone to watch the distribution point. It's ideal to have someone present at all times to facilitate check-in/out and charge ones as they die but not required. The ways in which this would be implemented are up for debate. One motivated individual is capable of implementing this the first year to help facilitate how to effectively document and operate. The founder of FRD has offered to come to Berlin to help implement a Silent Disco for the first year. A checkout system to track who has them, where the participant can leave their contact information or ID behind (ID was how they started but they changed to email address) is necessary. Identifying and implementing what method is best suited for our event is what matters most. They have had a high success rate in people returning them during the event and those who accidentally took them home have all shipped them back once they were home. The headsets they use have Red/Blue/Green LED lights (changes with the channel you are on) in the earmuffs which adds an interesting visual element to the landscape in the night time.
One headset is appx. 35€. I would start with 200 headsets, 10 chargers and 6 transmitters and expand on the infrastructure based on data collected via people checking them in/out.
64 headsets, 4 chargers, 3 transmitters is one package I have found for 3.399,00€ on Amazon.
They are cheaper on Alibaba but that is a bit riskier in terms of what the final product is. One event organizer I know ordered 2 transmitters off Alibaba for their event and only one of them worked, it was too close to the event to resolve in time to be used. I have submitted requests for quotes to several companies to start the conversation of total package costs for my suggested numbers listed above.
Further clarification of my proposal. This is based on the recent posts about Freiland being willing to allow us access to the venue in 2020 if we severely limit our sound. The Silent Disco would become part of the permanent infrastructure of Kiez but this is not meant to replace amplified sound permanently. A Silent Burn is an interesting concept and maybe an idea for a new burn but NOT this BERLIN based burn. Limiting how people can contribute to the community isn’t being very Inclusive. This is also based on Freiland expressing their willingness to renegotiate amplified sound in 2021. If they do not hold to this future plan I would expressly urge you to find a new venue in 2021.
I would love to hear your feedback, I welcome your participation!
If you feel this should be shared elsewhere, please lead the way.
Amihay Gonen Sat 25 Jan 2020 6:59PM
We will meet again on Tuesday to make a decision about the site for KB2020. Today we had a productive site visit to two potential sites. We will present them at the meeting. Here's a link to the FB event:
Ancka Fri 24 Jan 2020 9:52AM
Location Updates - Freiland options same location, same date
As part of the two-pronged approach to the site for 2020 and in order to secure Kiez Burn at the same location, same date, our team (Jan, Hans, Sven, Anca) had a meeting in Jarmen this Wednesday to discuss with the “Ordnungsamt” and Freiland how we could make it happen. The outcomes are:
Option 1: Quiet event at original date
The local authorities and Freiland have favoured the proposal to have a quiet event at the same date as last year (16-21 june), as a clear signal to the locals that there will not be noise issues this year. This approach should ensure we receive a permit for our event.
Option 2: Louder event after mid July
We still have the option available to request a louder event later in the year to not follow directly after Freiland festival. This would still require a more tight control of sound levels – e.g. restricting big systems to only run during the day from Wed to Fri, with Fri and Sat being the only allowed nights. As the local community needs to agree to a second event with loud music, there is a higher risk that we might not get a permit for a louder event at a later date.
What would it mean to have a quiet event?
- we can’t have any big sound systems / floors – unless it’s a silent disco
- in terms of volume of music that would mean for example Musotopia and Camp Schlampagne sound level might be acceptable, Underworld and Zerzura sound level will not
- to put it in technical terms, that would mean in the neighboring villages the decibels levels can not go over 55 decibel from 07:00-23:00 and 45 decibel from 23:00-07:00
- drumming, live music with small guitar amps or similar, and small personal systems in camps should all be fine
- we would need to do some tests about what exactly can work well before the event, e.g. during the prep+planning camp-out in spring
[deactivated account] Thu 23 Jan 2020 7:13PM
So, good news for now. I have spoken with Mukwar and I was told they contacted the neighbour who is willing to rent out the land for camping. Still have to get more details about this I will add any update as they are available as we are still in the on the flirting part of the relationship. Site visit on Saturday and hopefully more information will take us to the first kiss.
[deactivated account] Thu 23 Jan 2020 9:24AM
I just spoke with the owner of Mukwar to better understand the map attached. His land is the one next to the buildings (and some more on the left not in the map. Main issue is that it is almost all foresty. the land highlighted in colours are of the neighbours. He will ask the neighbour owner of the YELLOW piece of land if it would be possible to use his land as well as this is the one with a flat field.
We'll go on site visit in any case on saturday to check the place out. He is already talkning to the AMT regarding sound levels and for having the permit to camp in the woods. Moreover, he is not too much concerned on money for the time being as he'd love to have use there as it wold be a good start for him as well on this land to bring some event there as we would be the first ones to do so.
This is all for now folks.
walto Wed 22 Jan 2020 10:20PM
Btw, our current site is about 7ha of useable space. So although Remy specified 10-15ha, I would advise we do open our solution space to allow for spaces that are smaller.
David Wed 22 Jan 2020 6:36PM
- Freie Feldlage, Harzgerode. Been there at 250ppl event (David S), must be checked if it can host 1000 (on the website they say they can), and if any neighbours close-by. Founders are chilled. "Move Utopia" and "Undjetzt Konferenz" have been held there. http://www.gemeinschaftsstifter.info/
- Zytanien, Lehrte, near Hannover. Been there at 3000ppl event (David S). A friendly community lives there, they regularly host events with up to 3000 people. Permission, infrastructure and neighbour wise it should be a dream. Could easily save a ton of money on the electricity side. Maybe also storage available. https://www.zytanien.de
- A part of the Fusion site? (Or it's not a good idea, for many reasons?)
- If 4h drive from Berlin is fine, as stated, definitely look into locations in Poland and Czech Republic.
Bee Wed 22 Jan 2020 5:58PM
It's in the shared document under Sheet 1 (initially didn't make it to the short list for size worries which may have been an underestimation.)
[deactivated account] Wed 22 Jan 2020 11:41AM
NEW ON LOCATION SCOUTING
I have spoken with Alex of Kingdom of Mukwar. As he was busy I agreed on a call tomorrow to discuss details. He gave me the contacts of two people to organise a site visit this weekend. One of them is only back on Tuesday and the other should be back on Sunday (did not manage to talk to him but left a voicemail). I am waiting to hear from him about Sunday and from our Location team about possibility to go for a site visit, as Sunday it happens to be m birthday and I have other plans than spending it in a car. I'll update as new info becomes available.
walto Tue 21 Jan 2020 9:41PM
thanks so much y'all! This is impressive & super cool, can't wait to hear what will come out of it :)
Saskia Mon 20 Jan 2020 8:57AM
@carsten & @andreaparacucchi - I will send the club comission an email asking for help in scouting possible locations and getting us contacts. I offered this to you at the location meeting and then it kinda fell under the radar.
I would like to put one of you in CC for mail communication. Can get an email adress for that from you?
[deactivated account] Sun 19 Jan 2020 2:54PM
There is also the location of the now-dead Plötzlich am Meer.Do we know somebody from Plötzlich orga? Looks like it's used for a pretty big Polish festival called Sunrise as well. Pro: access to the sea wow! Cons: not in Deutschland, close to a small town, perhaps mismatch with more conservative locals. The location is on the Ostsee at what looks like an old military base. Short overview here from second 22: https://youtu.be/V0eCbG1HoFs
[deactivated account] Sun 19 Jan 2020 2:41PM
I've researched the Klingemühle, Friedland, Brandenburg (already mentioned in the list in topic summary above). It's the location of "Mit Dir" festival; looks nice, with lake, sound seems allowed. See Mit Dir video here: https://youtu.be/RKSIMBYLxAU and direct link to location: http://www.xn--klingemhle-geb.de/kontakt/ @carsten @andreaparacucchi
[deactivated account] Sun 19 Jan 2020 6:04AM
Location search is not bringing too much good news until now, but we‘re still on the look for a couple new places/leads. In the original sheet the location crossed out are for either of the following reasons:
- size too small for our needs
- too many buildings and/or architectural or land impediments
- safety hazards (I.e. old structures which would be dangerous to have around a bunch of happy hippies)
Here‘s the link for the locations we choose to pursue with the relative comments.
Updates will follow next week if the potential new Leads become feasible opportunities.
walto Sat 18 Jan 2020 5:42PM
@carsten or anybody else, is there an update on the location search? Also, in the spreadsheet, several locations are struckthrough on the sheet "sheet1", what does that mean? And it seems only 2 locations are currently being pursued, is that correct? Do we need more volunteers on this?
Vlad Sat 18 Jan 2020 10:05AM
"If you want to do something wrong do it right" - Joey Tribbiani.
Does anyone have experience with buying a property of the kind freiland has - i checked immobillienscout and it seems feasible to get a similar piece of property for something around 50-200k, which would only mean the ticket price increase for up to 100 for two years, which is more than bearable. Or does it sound too crazy?
Jan Thomas Fri 10 Jan 2020 11:47AM
I've had another call with Eric from Freiland, after they also had their internal meeting to discuss the details of our "quiet burn" idea and what exactly that would mean, as well as the sound approach when running at another date.
They had a pretty long discussion, which again surfaced the feedback many of them had received from locals - even from the more alternative hippie people - on just how loud we were perceived. Even though we didn't have complaints in 2018, apparently we were already seen as very loud in our first year there also... probably adding to the strong reaction we had in 2019. The main concern for Freiland is regarding their own future use of the site, and that there can't be another Kiez Burn that causes noise complaints - no matter at which date.
So what does this ultimately mean for us?
Quiet Kiez Burn 16-21 June
Freiland really like the idea of the quiet burn. They think the most important thing is to give a clear sign to the community that this year will be different - and think that nothing can give that sign as clearly as a "no sound systems" policy. They discussed our question about some compromise like having sound only on the weekend - but are against this. They think the only way to definitely get the permit for this date and convince the locals would be to be 100% quiet - as this entirely takes away the problem and can't be argued with. So the policy would be "no amplified sound" without exceptions. Stuff like drumming or unplugged music or the cabaret with a piano would be fine.
Their suggestion would be to bring back sound in 2021, i.e. after we've won local support and have hopefully gained the trust that we'll be doing it moderately... Whatever that would mean exactly, which I didn't think is worth going into for now.
Different date after mid July
They renewed mid July as the earliest date a loud Kiez Burn could happen. And they also intensified their requirement that it can't be creating noise complaints, i.e. that we would really need to come up with a different approach to managing the sound to prevent getting the same problems only at a different time of year. They totally want to support us in that, and made some suggestions like:
* Using limiters on the sound systems to technically prevent it going too loud (they do this for their own event too)
* Cutting down on sound during the week, i.e. only have Fri and Sat nights as the main loud evenings
* Limit the number of different sounds systems, and don't allow additional non-registered ones to run
It'll take some effort on our behalf, but should be doable - and ultimately is something we should also consider if we choose a new location, both regarding the locals and our own participants.
Closing thoughts & next steps
While this doesn't sound very positive - Overall they definitely want to have us back, and also want to support us however they can. E.g. Eric would come with us to the Amt and Gemeinde when we go up to try preparing the way for whichever approach we choose.
I think it makes most sense that "Team Freiland" moves forward over the next couple of weeks with a visit to Freiland, Amt & Gemeinde and explores both date options with them in parallel to detail this out further, so we have a full understanding of what each option would mean before we meet again on 28 Jan.
Happy to hear your comments and thoughts!
[deactivated account] Thu 9 Jan 2020 12:45PM
Fashionably late as Italians do, here are the notes from Tuesday's meeting.
Saskia Thu 9 Jan 2020 8:36AM
I got this hint from another corner: https://www.wild-bear.de/
I also got a number for contact via whatsapp & phone. If anybody has the time to follow this specific lead, contact me and I am going to forward said number to you. Not making it public for privacy reasons.
Carsten Wed 8 Jan 2020 7:27PM
Guten Tag! The SCOUTS aka Rekkies have created ein sheet to collect comments on locations from the community - if you've been to a venue on the list please give your mustard. We need to rank them from most to least desirable in order to be most effective and find a viable backup asap
Erin Jeavons-Fellows Wed 8 Jan 2020 3:01PM
Ive created a calendar mapping the events we would consider if we were to move the date. Not sure if I have missed some. Take a look: https://teamup.com/ksj28q557fkkw3go5k
Erin Jeavons-Fellows Tue 7 Jan 2020 8:53PM
Thanks everyone for coming tonight!
Here are the slides for the evening and Andrea Par will post the notes!
Congrats to those amazing people who stepped up to sort out our locations. We had some amazing revelations this evening.
Jan, Sven and Hans for continuing the relationship with Freiland
Andrea, Bee, Carsten, Clara, Amihay and Saskia for being the new location leads and beginning to check out options beyond Freiland.
- Location decision meeting to happen in 3 weeks. Event to follow.
- Continue to follow updates on talks here.
- Slides from this evening: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1urQWuX74rksLQ6-74iPW48cAewzMiwuEFHuVq3G3Q20/edit?usp=sharing
Bee Tue 7 Jan 2020 3:37PM
Have not been to the site but its the location for Artlake festival if we are still open for options
Erin Jeavons-Fellows Sun 5 Jan 2020 8:37PM
This event space was suggested also
We can contact the owners via the impressum. Its a beautiful location!
walto Sun 5 Jan 2020 11:06AM
Tip from Melissa:
mobile kino festival
Klingemühle 4, 15848 Friedland, OT Chossewitz, Brandenburg, Germany
The website - https://www.lakesidefilmfestival.com
Kim Sun 22 Dec 2019 4:52PM
I can also recommend to check out freakland. I have the been there on several festivals and It was always amazing!
walto Tue 17 Dec 2019 10:27PM
Leads from our search in 2017 + 2018:
- Jüterborg/Freqs of Nature (was previously fully booked)
- Attila Klein Buckow - https://www.landflucht-festival.de/ - animals live on site - forestland
- David Trümner from Fuchs & Hirsch UG (haftungsbeschränkt) from Uckeralm, he might have suggestions
- Flugplatz Allstedt - potentially, but a lot of concrete... There is a nice area, but it is rather small for us, unless we are ok with concrete
- Flugplatz Tultow (MonisRache) - never been
- Ferropolis - not really, too dangerous + only concrete
- Helen Beach Festival - Daniel Grabow - never been
- Gelände des Arschcholio Festival bei Tollensesee - never been
- Freakland: would definitely be possible, enough space, but lots of buildings and pre-existing general infrastructure,
- Pütnitz Gelände - Pangea Festival - Eigentümer: Stadt Ribnitz Damgarten - they answered then that they do not want anything else to happen there
- Berheider See - never been
- Kiekebuschsee - would not recommend
Saskia Tue 17 Dec 2019 7:43AM
Just adding two former locations of Camp Tipsy. I have no details whatsoever about them tho and would like to figure whether these places would be an option for us. Trying to get my hands on some contacts currently.
What I see from google maps is that they're close by Berlin, they are able to / have tried to / have experience giving the area to a cultural event and I do see a body of water close by both, but nut necessarily part of the gelände.
Ilya Alexander Yacine Tue 17 Dec 2019 6:17AM
I know the founder of Wilde Möhre, he recently acquired a large area with some ruinous infrastructure very close to the wilde möhre site. He is currently struggle to bring electricity and water there. I think a bunch of burners might be very beneficial for the place ;)
walto · Wed 8 Jan 2020 9:13PM
great! The top thread is editable, wonna maybe add it to there to keep the overview? And will copy my comments to the sheet then as well :) xx