Mon 14 Jan 2019 10:46PM

Where to start?

W walto Public Seen by 71

Kiez Burn will go into it's third year of existence (how very exciting!). We are still early days, but do give a shout-out if you have some ideas or urges.

When will it happen? 95-99% likely same week as last year :)

We have moved all of the content of Loomio over to this open-source hosted solution. The 2018 Archive is accessible as an open group.

We also are re-imagining Kiez Burn towards a more self-organizing burn, more thoughts on that:

Let's get started with the dreaming & the planning :)


tsundee Thu 17 Jan 2019 5:56PM

Hey, when and where is the next meeting of people who want to plan this years event?


Alex Kaos Fri 18 Jan 2019 9:00AM

Not yet decided. We want to finalize the establishment of the e.V first to provide a strong backbone for the event. Keep an eye on here and the Facebook page for updates soon.


walto Fri 18 Jan 2019 4:57PM

I would say we do not need to be blocked by establishing the e.V. first, because that will take quite a bit of more time... Depending on how fast we & the different institutions are, it could be March or even April...

So therefore, it would be great to have a first meetup rather soon. The question is: who will organize it?


Olivia Ehe Fri 18 Jan 2019 6:06PM

So glad this loomio has started, thank you @waldo for taking the initiative!


Olivia Ehe Fri 18 Jan 2019 6:08PM

I could probably kick off a first orga meeting ang get together, the first week in Feb. Let me poll some people for time and comms and will get back to y'all @zan


walto Sat 19 Jan 2019 2:19PM

Great idea @oliviaehe Thanks so much !! Maybe Annette can help with pushing getting the word out as well, as she is fluent in the Newsletter send-out language ;) Will send her a link to this thread :)


Hanna-Maija (Animal) Sun 20 Jan 2019 1:53PM

I can also contribute X


Alex Kaos Mon 21 Jan 2019 10:24AM

I would personally like to have a discussion and decision about Theme very early on. in order to make a more cohesive experience. I can kick that off with pleasure :P


walto Mon 21 Jan 2019 5:45PM

Should we already make the facebook event so to kick things off? Help with finding a location will then also become a bit easier...


Hanna-Maija (Animal) Mon 21 Jan 2019 5:52PM

We need a date first? Or was that decided already? I suggest Wed 6.2. or Thu 7.2.


Alex Kaos Mon 21 Jan 2019 6:59PM

How about we do a quick fish around now on facebook? As far as I understand, date tends to follow location. Feel free to bump it.


Olivia Ehe Mon 21 Jan 2019 10:42PM

Hey guys, I posted a poll asking for a poll, IDK if it got seen by many though. Alex has posted as well. I would be able to do the 6.2 as well; maybe it makes just make an event with a TBD location? Will also send a message to the people who said they were interested in attending, see if 6.2 works for them...


Erin Jeavons-Fellows Fri 8 Feb 2019 1:08PM

SO.. Where do we start?
I feel after the meeting people feel a little lost as to where to begin. I was thinking since the meeting we collectively a list of things create a list of things that we:
1. Know are legally essential for KB19 (security, toilets)
2. Know are things we definitely need for KB19 (welfare, gate)
3. Ideas that we want for KB19 (everything else)
I thought once we have this open list we can start creating groups and people can assign themselves tasks and the event can start taking shape. This can be an ever growing list that people can add to and build on but also somewhere we can manage. What do we think? :heart:


CJ Yetman Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:47AM

Would it also be possible to forgo the Dreams platform so that work could begin at a reasonable time, or would I be forced to wait until the decision is made there? When will the decisions for such things on the Dreams platform be finalized approximately? More or less than 2 months before the event?

To clarify that a bit, for me personally, to do a task like that, I would need the cash and the authorization to do it approximately 3 months prior to the event. Is that feasible in the current plan/structure?


Erin Jeavons-Fellows Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:19PM

I really feel we should start with a basic list to see what possible projects we need. Like an initial brain storm session/doc. or at least begin by taking a look at what things were organised to drive last years event. Then people can choose a project and gather behind it if they want it again this year.
We can also then decide what projects are to be on the dreams platform and what projects are a necessity. ie, 'tier 1, tier 2, tier 3' as @saskia31 mentioned.
I feel we need here someone who is the budget keeper... I'm not able to put my hand up for this as I'm dyslexic and known to mess that up! :) So if someone wants to be the budget reviewer that would be a start.
Also, is there any visibility on how much previous projects costed or allocated budgets last year were? Like I wouldn't feel comfortable to just randomly assigning 2000 to making power happen when I actually don't know what that would mean... Further the festival is increasing by about 200 bodies to 1000 (right?) this year so budgets for what we had allocated last year would be a good starting point with a 20-ish% increase to account for more people.
What would be an appropriate place to create a list? I could just start a google doc but if anyone else has any ideas, feel free to say!


Alex Kaos Wed 13 Feb 2019 1:51PM

It's likely larger / 'Burner Culture' projects (Gate, Welfare, Rangers etc) will receive early funding.
Our time-frame is somewhat limited by the process of the establishment of the e.V. This has the potential to put things into a very tight time-frame. Unless someone can assist in the acceleration of this process is might just have to be a bullet we have to bite and deal with the effect it has on the Burn.
I personally believe it will likely all work out just fine, and this is more of a 'worst-case-scenario', and isn't THAT bad, it just limits the magnificence of some of the projects.


walto Wed 23 Jan 2019 12:20AM

If the critical ppl can attend the 6th, we can totally push to make it happen on the 6th, for us to make an event and start the search for a location. A light word of caution surrounding facebook polls btw:

So although facebook polls are a great way to boost engagement, maybe not the best tool for decision making.


Alex Kaos Wed 13 Feb 2019 1:33PM

Hey hey, the Tier system I see as actually quite effective, but can be simplified into "necessities" and "Arts". From the Bank's perspective we could auto-allocate last years budget onto each 'necessary' project as minimum funding on the DP (Dreams Platform, not Double Penetration). Anyone who took on any of the projects would have the option to make a 'stretch Goal' and expand the project into something better, for which they would require votes (eco toilets, super welfare, power rangers with water pistols etc)

I have been deciphering the budgets from last year, and have a rough idea of how much could go back into each project. This can be expanded upon, but is already 'rounded up' and leaves the burn with plenty of room for error, and still almost double last years funding for 'Art Grants' and 'Necessity Extensions'.

There's quite a few other factors to take into account with the budget this year (we have taxes this year, the rent has increased dramatically, insurance changes categories, and we will need a bigger buffer this year than last year). And so work still needs to be done on this.

Ultimately, simple is better, I expect the 'algorithm' for fund allocation will need to be simple, so that it's easy for participants and artists to understand and that the Dreams platform can handle it.

Everything else is Art and works as we hope the DP will work.

Money NOT spent on the dreams platform due to unwillingness/confusion of participants (as what happened in Borderlands, 30% unspent funding) can be sent out as bonus investment to the funded projects and/or top-up some of the projects that didn't quite make it. Projects can inform beforehand if their project is capable of handling and utilizing 'last-minute' funding, and be placed on a waiting list for after the closing of the DP.
Any money left over after the Burn will go into the Burner Buffer (there to protect the board from the potential Tax whirlwind that could come our way). The Buffer will likely be invested into assests, primarily in the form of the deposit for a rented location, i.e. A Burner Bar / Workshop Space. So that it is accessible in the event of a Finanzamt Shitstorm, but usable by the community until/if that ever happens.

Nothing is set in stone yet. But these are my thoughts.


CJ Yetman Mon 11 Feb 2019 7:06PM

So about the budget.... say I want to organize and provide a centralized power generation system much like last year... I put that idea up on the Dreams platform, and it gets selected. Then I would personally lay out ~8000€ to make it happen, and at some point after the festival Kiez Burn would refund me 80% of that. Is that how it works?


Hanna-Maija (Animal) Tue 12 Feb 2019 9:18AM

Hi, how the dreams platform work is to be decided. I think it's possible that a lot of projects will be funded 100% and if you're interested in taking part in developing the processes I recommend joining the discussion at “How to organise Art Grants”.

What it comes to your example about the power, I imagine that if you would offer to take care of that, gather a team, make a budget and suggest that we as a community allocate the money for it in the budget from the beginning people would support that.

The difference to last year is that no one is above there to push people to make certain things to happen - it's up to all of us what we as a community think is important.


Hanna-Maija (Animal) Tue 12 Feb 2019 10:15AM

Or perhaps we would need to combine the decision with the overall budget decision? I imagine this needs to be made relatively soon.


Hanna-Maija (Animal) Tue 12 Feb 2019 10:13AM

Hey, as I wrote, I imagine that if someone would suggest that they would want to take over the power and make it happen with xxx money (as a project independent form the dreams platform) the community would support it.

The way I imagine this could happen is that someone would make a thread about Let's Make Power Happen, gather the people interested in the project, make a plan and a budget and then come to the community with the suggestion that could be decided on, with voting, here on Talk. I can only talk for myself but I would be really excitedly supporting that.


Saskia Fri 8 Feb 2019 3:34PM

My take away from the meeting looks like this. I just throw that in here and would like to know if I am correct in my assumptions/ if I heard that correctly and - if that is the first time this has been put down like that - what people think about this.

I am using a Tier list but this is not to downplay the effort of everybody when they apply for an artgrant and bring their art.
On the other hand: I can't enjoy anyones installation if I am having a genuinly shitty time because of the toilet situation. So in some regards & in my own personal world... whatevers.

Here we go

Budget Tiers

Tier 0 - Necessary (f.e. legally required) essentials without much room for down- or upgrading by communal or individual efforts
Examples: Security, Costs for firefighters, etc. etc.

Tier 1 - Necessary (f.e. legally required) essentials with room for up- or downgrading. These are structures which will and have to be provided. However, they are going to be provided as necessary according to the law. BUT they can be very basic or they can be funky. There can be a boring fence and grumpy people at the gate or it can be a welcoming amazing gate. There can be a couple of dixies spread around or there could be a bunch of funky decorated karaoke eco toilets.
Examples: Gate, Toilet

Tier 2 - Deine Mudda recommends... or: Stuff that is not legally required but we all know it is great, for some attendees even necessary to a certain degree to have them.
Certainly this will be the Tier with the most points of discussion. For example: People could disagree wildly about the necessity of a shuttle service, the presence of rangers and welfare, how much one needs greeters or central services like shower containers. Some of them are more, some of them less disputable and I am super curious to see the discussion there.
Examples: Shower, Communal transport, power for the camps, showers, rangers, welfare, greeter, temple/effegy/central event art and ritual pieces, water for the camps, shared rents for tools and vans

3 Tier - Everything else.

Who is responsible for which Tier
Tier 0 will have to fall into the responsibilty of people on the board or close to the board because they make all the important signatures, right?

Tier 1 will fall into the responsibility of the same people. But if there is a group out there that is willing to take over this task to make it better than basic, they are invited to do so and remember to not get the signature-givers into trouble by not fulfilling legal standards.

Tier 2 will fall into the responsibility of the community. If no one in the community finds the time and motivation to execute a version of what is wanted, there will be no centralized effort to make this happen.

Tier 3 is what participants bring

How does the budget look for each Tier?

Tier 0 budget is hugely detemined by outward circumstances. Whatever the fire fighters charge to be present to satisfy the ordnungsamt. Maybe it can be estimated by taking the numbers from last year.

Tier 1 budget is like the budget of Tier 0. So that's the budget the crew /person taking over has on their disposal. Additionally, they can receive funds through applying for the dreams platform. (Let's say they raise funds for 12 additional eco toilets on top of the basic ones that have already been calculated for). Points going to these structures on the dreams platform could be weighted
(f.e. as counting double per vote, essentially rewarding a person who spends their 'votes' on more 'communal' projects benefitting the whole with a double input. They COULD spend the point on their good friends art project, but instead...All of that is part of another discussion tho.)

Tier 2 budget is a bit tricky I think. But my idea here would be that things that get community-voted into Tier 2 category come with a predefined 'guaranteed funding' based on last years numbers / experiences / expectations. Groups that are keen on running this structure can then ask for additional funding via the dreams platform.

Tier 3 is whatever people happen to raise via the dream platform.


Hanna-Maija (Animal) Tue 22 Jan 2019 10:58AM

I also can't see a poll? But anyway I would just go further. There will be always people who can't make it so if we find a date that suits us that is already a good sign :)


Alex Kaos Tue 22 Jan 2019 7:13AM

Hey hey, I can't find the poll anywher. An I missing something?


Annette Wed 23 Jan 2019 12:02AM

sure i can help out here :) i can write about the event and try to get more people on loomio (or how will we call it from now? talks?)


walto Wed 23 Jan 2019 12:15AM

That is great! So for the how to call it, hmm, hihi, what do you think we call it the Kiez talk box? Or euhm, the"place-where-we-talk" or the "talk-forum" or "PCLNCT" (previously called loomio now called talk) or just "Talk"? Should we start a poll for this?


Alex Kaos Mon 21 Jan 2019 10:21AM

Hey @oliviaehe I can help with this for sure. I will be back in Berlin by the 4th Feb.