talk.kiezburn.org
July 21st, 2021 18:52

Seeking Advice: How to reallocate Storage space to Kieze for the year 2021/22?

Mareike
Mareike Public Seen by 143

Starting this thread for Storage Lead @Thomas Hohe (who is currently on the road🚌)

Initial storage thread as reference > Storage Thread

Kiez Burn Org and Kieze are storing their stuff in a barn close to Freiland. This space is now super packed and will be emptied out by us until Kiez Burn Wednesday.

After Kiez Burn many Kieze have already stated they would want to store their stuff there again. Right now it looks like there might not be enough space for everyone and most Kieze will probably have MORE stuff after this Kiez Burn.

This thread is to collect ideas about how to reallocate the limited storage space for the upcoming year transparently and as fair as possible.

Some ideas:

  1. Kieze can apply for storage space until a certain date. Divide the available storage space by the number of Kieze. Every Kiez gets the same amount of space (probably quiet small) and has to take care of storing everything else somewhere else or disposing of it.

  2. Kieze can apply for storage space until a certain date. They state if they need a small (1), medium (2) or large space (3). The space will then be distributed by Storage Lead.

  3. There is a storage space map with the available storage space slots. Kieze can pick out their slots (like picking a seat in the airplane). First come first serve.

Feedback/Ideas/Suggestions would be appreciated. Thomas is taking it from here:)

@Erin Jeavons-Fellows for Kieze

Some Kieze (Leads) I know:

@Annette @Cris @Jan-Christian Kaspareit @Jan Thomas @Professor Kaos please tag more!

@Veroca R. Sala @Bee

@Thomas Hohe please add all info like costs per m2, available space etc. - if you have this information already


TO CONFIRM:

Can we use the other half of the Barn???

PRICES OF THE BARN -

(information comes from this comment)

The barn has a total of 177,6 sqm and Kiezburn pays €1000/p.a. for that. This comes down to €5,63/sqm for the Camps.

Thomas Hohe

Thomas Hohe August 4th, 2021 20:10

we've added about 30sqm in the original barn at the same price. KORG will take a chunk of it, the rest we can use for camps.

Thomas Hohe

Thomas Hohe August 4th, 2021 20:09

They paid for 5,5 so that's the space they probably use at the moment. It's in the back on the right next to lemon. I'll have a sign put up during build.

👤

Anonymous August 4th, 2021 20:05

Thomas Hohe

Thomas Hohe August 4th, 2021 19:54

I'll add a proposal that adds a deposit to the rent. the deposit could go up by 1,16 per additional sqm starting at the renting price of 5,63.

Thomas Hohe

Thomas Hohe August 4th, 2021 19:52

KB has increased storage space by about 30sqm, 8 of which will likely go to KORG. So we're up to approximately 207sqm now.

Annette

Annette July 28th, 2021 11:53

Update: We can use the new barn for only 1 EUR/month. I think best is to "top up" the storage we use already with some space, use a bit more here (around 30m2) and space in the new barn if needed. 2 areas are recommended from Eric: Either a 50m2 (see pic beloow) or 120m2 area that are easy to seperate from the rest (which would be important for them, so they can still use the other areas). The new barn is even equipped with power.
Option 1: Price for rented storage will be the same for everyone
Option 2: New barn can be rented for a higher price, e.g. if there are Kieze or KORG with special request aka "my equipment needs to be stored more safe/dry ..." they can book the "better" barn.

Erin Jeavons-Fellows

Erin Jeavons-Fellows July 28th, 2021 08:23

Hi Thomas

the kunts are taking over the palace storage. I think we may need a little more space when we pack down as we will have fridges. Is it possible to organise that? Can you share how much space they have so we can examine hwo much extra we estimate we will need?

Thomas Hohe

Thomas Hohe July 26th, 2021 19:13

To spare you the math: the barn we have no costs 0,47€/sqm per month. The alternative barn is 1,5€/sqm per month, which is about 320%.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 26th, 2021 18:55

thanks, @Annette this means a lot and it is a big relief! tagging @Thomas Hohe to note this new info. Yay!🎉

A

Ale July 26th, 2021 18:48

Upps you’re right. I read 2€ per m2 😅

Annette

Annette July 26th, 2021 18:47

More like 4.500 EUR: If we need more space (maybe 250m2) for around 12 month (1 year) it would be: 250x1,5x12= 4.500 EUR.

A

Ale July 26th, 2021 18:44

Thank you so much for checking and delivering @Annette 💪🏻 🔥

A

Ale July 26th, 2021 18:42

So for 178 qm in the bigger barn, 1.602€ per year, right?

Higher could be useful though? And encourages burners to use their space more conscious. Second barn sounds nice. Can’t tell if option 1 would be enough though. Maybe it can be mixed? Use the rest of barn 1, plus whatever space is needed at barn 2. then split the price on everyone?

Annette

Annette July 26th, 2021 18:34

Update from Eric/Freiland (owner of the barn):
Option 1: There can be another 30-40 m2 used in the barn we use at the moment (straight ahead if you enter the barn - it is in the back of the walkway, next/around the car that is standing there at the moment). Plus if we pack and store better (eg higher), we can save some more space.
Option 2: There is another barn (next to the one we us now), much bigger, much higher, much more dry. It is around 1200m2 big in total of which 300m2 will be used for other projects. It is much more expensive though: 1,5 EUR per m2 per month. To compare: At the moment we rent around 177m2 for 1000 EUR / year.

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman July 25th, 2021 21:20

gotcha... so it's not a very strong incentive because it's so cheap either way 😆

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 25th, 2021 21:02

yes, you do❤️ it makes sense and we could apply it, however, the "problem" is that either square meter or cubic meter, it is still a very cheap price because we only charge the costs since we dont want to make a profit. It is so cheap that no one really cares to use1,3,5 meters extra.

That is why I suggest the idea of the deposit so that we "charge" more deposit to those Kieze that request a larger parcel and zero deposit to those that request the "small" size.

Still to discuss exactly how big is the small, medium and,large parcel btw.

it wasn't really my idea to get so involved in this topic but I just came up with this idea, I dont want to push to implement it, It is just how I personally see we could solve the issue (?)

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman July 25th, 2021 20:49

yes, but.... if you charge them by the square meter floor space instead of cubic meter area, then they have a very strong incentive to stack their stuff very efficiently, i.e. use as much vertical space as possible to avoid paying for more horizontal space... am I getting the point across?

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 25th, 2021 20:18

yes, to my understanding the problem is that we dont want to make a profit out of it, right? the price is so cheap that Kieze will request larger cause it is cheap and why not to have more space at storage. Then we have a lot of Kieze in the need of storage

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman July 25th, 2021 19:06

Why not charge by square meter floor space… that would be a strong incentive to stack things efficiently, no?

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 25th, 2021 15:49

Hey, Seeing it like that it's fair enough, im glad you point out your concern so I can better explain what I have envisioned, otherwise indeed, option #2 will put you/strike volunteers on Storage in an awkward position of having to decide on the spot and reject Kieze from the storage. TOUGH ONE.

The strike-storage volunteer Role I suggest is not much about deciding on the spot and kicking out, but encouraging the Kieze-strikers to pile up properly to make better usage of the space, helping/pushing them to pile well and to not use more than what they have "booked" but from a contribution-to-a-good-outcome position - not to be the bad people to fight with at storage.

I do see your point, that option #2 might become a bit messy onsite (?), we could still use option #1? the Kieze renting small, medium, or large parcel + deposit fee + still having volunteers onsite to coordinate the strikers pilling up shit on storage and using the space "correctly".

I’m unsure on how to come up with a number that nudges the way we’d intend it to go. To make up our own pricing/depositing mechanism simply hoping that it has the effect we hope or wish it will will run the risk that it 1) creates paperwork and 2) doesn’t do what we want it to do.

I see I see, and yes, I am also unsure this will take us to where we want to go. I do believe it is worth trying, as the end goal is to be more fair, helpful with the small ones while the big ones will be more "supportive", instead of the opposite.

Let's set a price of the storage + the deposit fee for medium and large parcels and,maybe make trial signup; stating in the sign-up-for-storage form that, it is not 100% that they will get storage only by signing up but they have to wait to get confirmation. Send out to the Kieze and see what is that you get!

if the approach/price of deposit didn't give the result we expected and we have 90% of the Kieze requesting large-sized parcels, then we are better off canceling and moving forward with a different approach, but hey, we better move fast!!! can't believe the event is getting so close !😲

Example: A camp with 30 members paid 100 bucks to have storage for a year, and they used a lot of space, im sure if they were asked for a 300bucks deposit for the large size parcel, they will downsize to a medium where they would pay 100/150bucks (?) or small with no deposit at all.

Are these too crazy numbers?

Camp members this year might have to chip in more money, and it is the Kiezes problem how they return money to the members next year, probably, as a regular tax refund, one gets the money back next year, IF ONE REQUEST IT; the camp lead might or not be chasing members to return their Moneyzz. Not your problem.

What are your thoughts?

Thomas Hohe

Thomas Hohe July 25th, 2021 15:12

I would assume that it would solve the scarcity problem, for this year at least. I’m still in Mexico, so if someone else could reach out to the barn owner, that’d be great. Lmk if you guys can’t get around to doing it, though!

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 25th, 2021 15:02

Are you able to ask the barn owner if the other half of the barn is available for us ?? I've been there and there is some random stuff stored but nicely organized would free up a whole lot of space for us, maybe that would solve the whole problem (?) . If you r not in Germany maybe @Jan Thomas could ask this question to the barn owner for us?

Thomas Hohe

Thomas Hohe July 25th, 2021 14:34

I’m unsure on how to come up with a number that nudges the way we’d intend it to go. To make up our own pricing/depositing mechanism simply hoping that it has the effect we hope or wish it will will run the risk that it 1) creates paperwork and 2) doesn’t do what we want it to do.

Have volunteers and realizers decide on what’s okay and what isn’t might place them (me ;) in an unpleasant conflict-prone situation with dozens of hung-over people who rightfully are confused by the necessarily arbitrary decisions made in storage.

I don’t mind winging this during strike, give me a crown and a scepter and I’ll do it, but there may be a less top-down alternative.

Thomas Hohe

Thomas Hohe July 25th, 2021 14:27

I do see the point, really. What I don’t like is the prospect of basically arbitrarily allocating storage space and this proposal mediates that.

as far as the promise to return next year goes: that problem we face with every camp that stores their stuff with every proposal, so I wouldn’t worry too much about that.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 25th, 2021 09:59

Hey Thanks Thanks. I love to read discussions about this as am interested in seeing all the different ideas and ways to potentially solve the storage issue. Im sure a good thing will come out of these comments🙌

I guess my opinion here goes along the line of my previous proposal in the other comment ...
However what you propose is a viable solution, the questions that come to my mind are these:

  • Why would we make life "easier" to bigger camps? IMO big camps have (in general) more experience, more people, more money liquidity, and resources to dispose of trash, organize, and rent stuff etc. Whereas smaller camps struggle to get drivers to drive stuff back to Berlin or rent vans and store stuff somewhere else, simply because they have fewer members

  • The promise to return is a good one, however, where is that promise tied to? to a deposit fee or to a word? In either case, they still might not return if things change over the course of the year, no? So, to me, this will be a requisite more for the "paperwork" to allocate space than as a practical solution. But indeed could be interesting to apply to encourage some sort of commitment from the Kieze. In the end, we want them to come back and it eases the work for allocation as well. But you might end up with a great number of Kieze promising they are coming back.

  • My biggest question: Do we want to facilitate storage to those who need it or to those who are more involved, have more easy access to information, those who are "stronger"?

    I am personally aware of how exclusive is Talk Sometimes, and how many Kieze/participants are left behind because our communications and way of working aren't so clear to them, however, all camps are, (to me), still, the soul of Kiez burn, they provide the sparkle and fun we have out there. If we made this process too exclusive they might not grow next year, they might not even come back.

    But again this is my personal opinion. I read the approach in your proposal as: The bigger and stronger the Kieze are, will get the most, leaving to the smaller Kieze not so many chances to become bigger and stronger over time, as they might need to start over every year.


    What is dear to my heart is to give the chance to all Kieze to store the most important things and encourage them to not store trash in the shed. Taking into account that the bigger Kieze, as they have more resources, could make a lill effort to make space for other Kieze, inclusion and communal effort principle flag here. I am not the realizer of Storge, I am not a Kiez Lead, I am a simple participant giving opinions. I'd love to see more !!!


  • About "fewer" complaints: I guess there will be complaints anyways😆 The "bigger-kieze-get-storage" is a decision, no?

again: I guess my opinion here goes along the line of my previous proposal in the other comment ...

Thomas Hohe

Thomas Hohe July 24th, 2021 23:57

The deposit won’t be a problem, maybe it’s best to keep it separate from other Kb-Money for transparency reasons. I’m happy to research this more but it should be fine.

Thomas Hohe

Thomas Hohe July 24th, 2021 15:10

So here’s an idea that will take the storage realizer or whoever else is responsible for the decision who gets storage out of the line of fire:

1) Every Kiez that promises to return will get storage space

2) the space will be allocated pro rata meaning, the more people there are in your Kiez, the more storage space you get.

3) the Kieze can freely assign their storage claim to other Kiezes the way they seem fit.

con1: big Kieze are more space-efficient because they share common space, so big Kieze will profit more under this system.

con2: well connected kieze will be able to make bigger storage units.

Con3: this is not a need based system, it may not result in the most efficient way of storage allocation.

Pro1: no (fewer) complaints because there is no decision making process: it’s a system where no one makes a top-down decision but the kieze sort it out themselves. Every Kiez gets the same space pro rata. May not be the most space efficient but it avoids fights with realizers and korgies.

Thomas Hohe

Thomas Hohe July 24th, 2021 15:01

1) We’ll have to pay VAT if we make more than a certain amount of money, (which we quite likely do, I don’t know the books of the e.V. though).

2) Default VAT is going to be 19%. if we are “gemeinnützig” (roughly translates to altruistic/non-profit) and if the Burn-Event is part of the altruistic/non-profit purpose, it’s going to be 7%.

3) deposits are not subject to VAT, because they don’t qualify as income in the balance sheets.

Professor Kaos

Professor Kaos July 22nd, 2021 18:22

I like option 2. It would be good to have someone at storage throughout yes l strike anyways to watch over the process.

We could take deposits, in cash.

Otherwise I will need to ask the Steuerberater how that would work financially. I expect we'd take it as income and lose 19% in tax (which the camps would lose effectively.

So if they pay a 100€ deposit, they will only get 81€ back the next year..

Fine by me, even as a camp that would pay that money, it's worth my while to have that storage space. (I expect other camps will feel the same)

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 22nd, 2021 16:35

I like option 2, however, I want to point out how difficult is for people to figure out the volume of their gear, it is very likely they just request larger space JUST IN CASE, considering it is quite an affordable price per square meter in comparison to the headache of having to get rid of stuff after the event.

The major problem I see is that we ( kiez burners) do store trash because it is easier and cheaper than to throw it away

My idea around this topic... two possible options that could even be combined

1# Making the storage space less "attractive" to the Kieze

I personally believe that maybe we could play around with the price, like charging a deposit fee ( or however to call it, @Thomas Hohe will know more) which could be returned the next year, so it would turn out to be more interesting for the Kieze, to dump their crap than to cheaply store it in the shed, (taking up storage space for other Kieze to store meaningful equipment)

As an example:

  1. If a Kiez chooses the small parcel, then they would only pay the cubic meter value.

  2. If a Kiez chooses the medium size parcel, they pay the value of cubic meter + a deposit fee

  3. If a Kieze chooses the Large size parcel, they, of course, pay the corresponding cubic meter + have more deposit.

Pros:

  • This way people will better think twice before requesting a large space, we will think twice before storing crap in the shed.

  • I also think that larger space requests will come from bigger camps, with more members, therefore probably more money liquidity to afford the extra fee.


    Cons:

  • People will complain, but that always happens.

#2 Charging as much as they use + extra fee (deposit), measuring on the spot at the storage with extra volunteers at the shed.

  • To get two extra Strike volunteers to have at the storage. These people will make a grid on the ground of the storage.

  • As the Kieze goes in the shed they start dropping off and piling up their gear on the spots assigned by the Storage strikers volunteers who will be coordinating onsite.

  • Kieze will be charged for what they take. Prior information of how much cost ( of course) and the existence of the extra fee/ deposit if they choose bigger than small / X size.

Pros:

  • This way we avoid the kieze reserving bigger space than what they actually need.

  • we encourage them to actively choose what to store and what to dump.

  • Kieze Strikers are "watched" by the strikers-storage volunteers who will try to keep the pile safe and somewhat accessible and organized (?)

Cons:

  • complaints

  • having kieze in a line at storage, however, this doesnt really need to happen. I can imagine every year the storage is a busy place to be in, this doesnt need to add more chaos but on the contrary, more organization IMO

My availability towards this proposal:

I dont have the time to move forward with all these, I can only provide some extra strike volunteers and help to recruit, and shape the role description of these volunteers.

@Professor Kaos for the finance perspective, can Kiez Burn receive this deposit money and keep it till next year?

is this legal? Thomas ( who i tagged above might know better about that)

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 22nd, 2021 15:55

Thanks for moving forward with this, Mareike.

As a note we did have already a storage thread with some info, I link here the initial Storage Thread and hope we keep the discussion here as contained as possible I would link this very thread to the other one as well.

PRICES OF THE BARN -

(information comes fro this comment)

The barn has a total of 177,6 sqm and Kiezburn pays €1000/p.a. for that. This comes down to €5,63/sqm for the Camps.

i also add this important question to the top of the thread

TO CONFIRM:

Can we use the other half of the Barn???

Professor Kaos

Professor Kaos July 21st, 2021 22:48

I prefer option 2. Some camps have a lot of materials and some not so many, equality doesn't work in the space (option 1).

Option 3 is an interesting decentralised solution but shouldn't be run so late (close to the event). Camps need more time to fairly get a space, and some camps will simply gobble up what they need.

Small, medium and large applications, and divide the space relative to that.

A tip - don't just bunch all the small's together and large's together. The emails will become overrun and can't their shit out, so they need to be placed amongst other sizes to maintain access (my storage point at flow camp for example cannot be accessed because our neighbors piled up so high that we're buried...)

Professor Kaos

Professor Kaos July 21st, 2021 22:44

I believe no, we rent the left half of the barn only. Our storage is currently at capacity, but not efficient.

Purzel

Purzel July 21st, 2021 22:35

Maybe @Professor Kaos , since he is handling the rent?

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 21st, 2021 21:47

True.there is one half of the barn that looks like empty... who to ask about that?

Purzel

Purzel July 21st, 2021 20:51

As far as I've seen during spark, there is plenty space left that is currently used to store non kb stuff.

Thomas Hohe

Thomas Hohe July 21st, 2021 19:27

From what I understand it’s one building and we rent all of it 🤷‍♂️ So no is the answer I guess - but there’s also nothing more to rent

Purzel

Purzel July 21st, 2021 19:07

Did we ever try to rent out more space at the barn? 🙂