Sound Concept & Guidelines

I see some strange things in the proposal doc that is linked here.

1. Zone A as shown on the map excludes the area that was used previously by Zerzura, and that is used by Freiland as one its primary sound stages. That could be intentional, but that would be very surprising to me.

2. The description of Zone A says "Reference of last years : Underworld, Saloon", however the Saloon's location in 2019 is in what is shown as Zone B in the map.

(for reference, there is a Kieze map in the Site Leads documentation for KB19 here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Vt-LXmY7-jVg2hkdybf1KMPmtu9-mG6wqD0KHTxDmfU/edit)

and some questions about the text in the description here

1.the decibel meters that must be placed in each sound camp: Who owns them / where do they come from? How are they used, i.e. do they have a large, illuminated display so that everyone near the site can see and monitor the levels, or are they a handheld version that someone knowledgeable needs to periodically check?

2. in terms of communication with rangers/site lead: How is that achieved? Will they have radios, and if so who provides them? Or will they need to commit to being in the DJ booth (or some obvious location) for the duration of their shift, or something like that?

1. Yes it is intentional. Zone A as presented has been defined by the group as the best area to have loud music.
   It is also supported by Freiland to rather use old Underworld/Süsskiez for louder music. Old Zerzura and Saloon have been identified as the most problematic.
   It is as well following the idea of having only 1 designated area for the 'Zone A', rather than loud music spread all around the site.
   It is obviously just a proposal at this stage and can be discussed.
   
   2. This is a 'reference' just in terms of volume and type of camps. Not about the location.

1. Ideally, I would imagine this being an investment from the KB Verein budget and/or the event budget. Not from each camp budget. Also allow to have the same device for all camps.
   Depending on price point of course, but I am not sure a display to allow everyone to check is necessary. Mostly the Stage manager must be able to check the volume.
   
   2. Yes I would imagine these people on shift staying around the stage/booth during their shift. Some kind of 'Stage Manager' that you can also see in most bigger burns and festivals.
   
   

Added the 2019 Census links and references to sound levels, and a link to 2019's talk discussion on the topic.

Howdy :)

I started the debate about music last year and, while it's unlikely I'll attend this year, I thought I'd put forward the point that came across in the debate that continuously seems to be missed :

The problem us not the decible level or the zones or the lack of haybsles. It is the hours.

This is a burn, not a tehno festival.

Suggestion should be something like : 0400-1200 silence. Small portable speakets at breakfast, fine obviously :) but you shouldn't be able to hear them two camps away.

1200-2000 moderate. Nice dance music, moderate volume. I can hear it 3-4 camps away but it's background noise and I can still concentrate on my art or workshop.

2000-0400 - go nuts. Whatever the neighbors will let you get away with. I'm in. I'll probably be dancing my ass off in front of the stage, and then you building it!

Times, not zones.

Back with some feedback from Freiland on your sound concept! The fact that there were complaints last time was largely due to the formerly used areas. Some camps turned up music at spots that were not properly shielded (by hills, trees, etc.). 

The biggest change requests to our concept are in the sound zones – B (for semi-loud sound) unfortunately isn’t possible. According to the Freiland crew, the neighbors can still hear even moderately loud music from there very clearly. For really loud “wegbassen”, it is essential that we limit ourselves to the “hollows”. For semi-loud, they recommend we should have a look at the Kinderkiez area. This means limited space for sound stages compared to our setup in 2019...

Let’s stick to the updated areas for "loud" and "semi loud" (updated graphic of suggested sound areas coming soon) and coordinate well! Not only because of limited space but also because of better communication flow about complaints and agreed sound levels, it's worth considering organizing the stages a bit more "centrally" this time? We still need to decide who will be in charge of “sound level management”: rangers? sound patrol? site/music leads?

Since we are planning with less burners at the moment (about 500 ppl.), it makes even more sense that music artists & stages find a good solution together. Less is more?

@CJ Yetman had previously suggested that more people participate who are not from sound camps. Shoutout to all burners: Tell us what you think! 🔥

@Roko The stages on both banks of the lake interfere with each other sound-wise – perhaps they could be shielded with hay bales. Freiland can possibly arrange contacts for buying or borrowing and gave these additional hints for material & strike: "hay rots better than straw, better don't open the string attached to hay cubes:) and rake off the leftovers afterwards."

@Quentin Thanks for all your energy and effort so far 💛 We will wait a little longer to register with the Amt, as nothing is being processed here at the moment due to the high workload and the current uncertain situation. This means there’s still enough time to adapt the sound concept.

If you have any questions, reach out to me, @Annette and @Jan Thomas. You can check out our protocol from the meeting with Freiland here (there are some more details).

Seconded about the 'Saloon' – their sound levels were much higher than we expected based on their Zone allocation, which caused problems for our camp (Hammock Reactor).

Thanks a lot Kate for the feedback from the meeting.

If I understand well and try to summarise, they want us to:

A- Centralise loud music in 1 single sound stage - >Old Underworld spot
(2 stages max but not so clear where else could be the 2nd one)

B- No moderate music allowed, except for one possible camp in the old Kinder Kiez area.

On the point A- I have the feeling it is kind of not really in line most of the principles of our community, being a decentralised event at all levels. But well, if that's the only solution, then let's do it this way :)

In case, we can have only 1 stage at KB this year, I believe it should be communicated to the whole community as soon as possible.I imagine some sound camps are starting to have ideas, are planning logistics, budget,ect,..


On the point B- It is a bit sad to hear that all camps like Schlampagne, Flow Camp, Musotopia, and all camps that used to have some moderate music can't exist anymore within those new sound restrictions.

Same as for the first point, let's try to communicate to the broader community asap so we avoid multiple camps planning ideas for music, art and all sorts of performances that they will have to cancel because of sound restrictions.

In the end, Freiland are the one defining the sound guidelines, so let's wait on there feedback about the areas they would advise and what's possible to do.

Again, I believe we should communicate those restrictions to the community and all camps and creators as soon as we can. Dreams platform is starting, Camps meetings are starting, so let's avoid disappointment.

btw. a friend wrote me that he has a top professional super busy friend, who knows stuff about sound and that he could ask in a fitting situation for a professional opinion on how to probably solve things. if this is still wanted by the community, we would need a formulated situation of the problem and a map of the area with altitude information, natural resources as well as the location of the surrounding houses etc. (as much info as possible)

so if someone has time for that...

Hello @Kate :)

Did Freiland ever get back to you with a new proposal for the different zone?

Those feedback are important to update and finalize the sound protocol and the different zones as Site Planning is starting and Kiezes starting to plan.

Last info shared for the Kieze Realizers Meeting is the latest update from your meeting:

1- Centralized and Unique sound camp for Loud music (Underworld spot)
2- Only 1 zone for semi loud (KinderKiez)
3- All the rest is quiet

Yes! Let´s have a meeting to we can discuss? I´ll write you a pm.

Hey gang, I wrote the 2018 sound protocol. After being asked about joining up to help organize a sound kiez this year, I figured to join in the cha(n)t. For some background and disclosure, I've been doing sound since 2000 and have recently started a berlin-based sound company with a friend and Wwedish distributor of Danley Sound Labs speakers.

I've read the proposed sound guidelines and numerous chats concerning the subject and wish to offer this advice:

1. End-fire and cardioid subwoofer arrays can work, but must be precisely measured and must not have any obstructions around a large radius behind, above, and besides the boxes. A large enough required radius of no objects is enough to greatly reduce available space for tents, vehicles, tables, etc.

1. I've read the blurb about the hay bales. Large, solid baffles around the speakers can reduce rearward projecting, but need to be several meters wide and tall. I have my doubts about the fire safety of the bales, even if kept soaking wet, but if truly large, they may work. Construction of a wooden baffle needs to be heavily braced so the structure does not turn into a vibrating surface. If it vibrates, sound goes backwards.

2. More practical is to use large horn arrays. Most, if not all of the subs used at freiland have been ported direct radiating subs. Horns are much more effective at aiming sound forwards. However, a front surface of over 2 sq meters is necessary, so just one or two smaller horn subs is not going to help enough.

3. Do not forget about tops/mid-high speakers and monitors! DJ monitors usually end up aiming behind the dancefloor and even those aimed towards the dancefloor will send back a lot of lower midrange energy. Hornloaded tops are better at controlling midrange and highs, but the lower midrange will still wrap around and leak behind the boxes. Horns (or horn arrays) over a meter in width are necessary for proper control.

4. Trees don't block as much sound as they do light. Anyone who has been to any of the park parties in the last year can attest to how much sound just a bluetooth speaker can project through the woods.

5. Of the 4 proposed sound kiez locations, 3 offer some sort of hill behind the intended dancefloors. Hills can help block sound, but those who spent any time in the wellness tent can attest to how much sound escaped behind Underworld. The proposed location by the rear gate offers no such protection, so volume control there will be the most critical.

Hey, Eric sent some feedback to our improved draft! "We have just looked at your sound concept and think that it can work so well! Gladly we can do an on-site inspection together!"

What do you guys think? Let's share the proposal for further discussion with the community. 🔊⭐️ 

Is anyone of you attending the spark campout at Freiland this weekend? If you wanna do a guided "sound" tour at the site, I can try to arrange a date with Eric 🙂 @Quentin

Thank you Kate for the feedback from Freiland, and happy to see that they are accepting our Sound Guidelines proposal :)

I won't be at the Spark but have been to Freiland many times. What is the most important, in my opinion, is that we can do some testing on site during the build of the event. When the PAs are ready for soundcheck. So we can set the maximum level allowed for the sound stages.

I communicated the info to the Site Planning team already so every camp that is not in the loud zone can be informed not to bring any PA with them.

Next step is to work on the coordination with Rangers and Site Lead to ensure all this will run smoothly.

A little announcement: UnderWorld opened applications for music until 8 July! Especially since we have limited capacity for sound camps this year due to the new agreement with the site (to keep the neighbours happy) – we would like to invite the whole community to share their funky tunes #welovewegbassen #welovedowntempo #letsshakeourbooties

Fill out the form and share it with whoever you think can contribute 🙂

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeZ-29LeqVTWBMe6pXie5B4QfClOquJqU9msBY51HPBn_UWgw/viewform?usp=sf_link

P.S Please accept the authority of the grumpy cat

hello! i have a fully hornloaded digital PA system that has great directivity. it is not in use this august, would this help the kiezburn? very unique look and sound, it would be an honor to bring it to freiland ;) let me know if you are interested...

Dear @lisette many thanks for offering this, this is a truly amazing gift! Underworld is already equipped, maybe @Roko @Jan-Christian Kaspareit @Quentin @Tim Menuridae (?) are interested. The spots for people who want to bring sound are already full, but idk if anyone still needs a PA

@Quentin oopsi, is the final sound guidelines document still existing? When clicking on it my browser says: no... maybe you can check the url?

@lisette what an amazing offering! I am sure Nubicuculia will gladly take this incredible sound system, if she is on offer. Please feel free to pm me with energy requirements and specs of the system if possible (output, size, etc.). do we need to get amplifiers etc. , we have already begun talks looking into a system but are rather budget constrained by the amount we fund raise. She would be in the best hands with a limiter on the main ;)

Link was wrong for some reason. I updated the link now.

We have now defined 3 levels of sound within our guidelines : Loud, moderate, and quiet.

The exact definition of 'Loud' and 'Moderate' will be happening onsite while soundchecking the 4 sound stages together with Freiland.

I would like to bring to this round the topic of how do we define the 'Quiet' sound level.

This sound level is very important and is impacting every Kiezes. All Kiez that are not in the loud zones must be 'quiet' all time. Also sound stage must be 'quiet' outside of their dedicated time.

So how do we want to define this level? With a maximum dB? WIth a maximum wattage of the speakers? Or just with common sense, mutual understanding and respect?

Think of some ambient music going along a yoga session, a drum circle, a small jam at the piano, a singing circle/choir, where is the limit?

It would be really good to have a kind of list of examples of stuff that are ok and stuff that are not ok in order to stay 'quiet'. Also some gears should just not be brought in order to make sure we stay within reasonable limits (eg: stuff like Soundboks or big JBL are clearly a risk of not staying 'quiet' for any camp who has them)

I personally believe that a list of examples Do/Don't combine with a common sense approach would work the best.

What do you think?

This is a good start to get an idea on how to brief Rangers @Quentin. But we will also need a more definitive protocol (most probably using dB readings on site) to trigger certain executive actions for the Site and Rangers Leads.

95% of the time, common sense and human decency applies and is highly effective, but that 5% of failure occurs with the use of substances, early in the morning, with unreasonable participants. We have to have a pre-agreed upon cut-off point and protocol for that unfortunate 5%. (I will post a draft example protocol here shortly)

As for your request for suggestions: The Fire Space must be held on sandy ground for fire safety reasons, and considering Underworld is full of an art project, that leaves only the Promethean (Zerzura) area plausible.

We have been operating from the sound guidelines that we could play with a Bluetooth speaker, for which we have a TAWireless 2, which would operate each night during the quiet period. Based on my experience as Site Lead last year, and of course on the fact that Freiland used that exact location as their main stage in their event last weekend, leaves me to believe that this is a perfectly adequate compromise of Sound and Fire safety. The sound is not loud enough to make a dancefloor, but loud enough for the artists to perform. Also, only 2 camps would be affected by this sound (Prometheans and the 'Basic Witches' location)

I am more than happy to test this set-up with Freiland on site. At Spark I did a test and put the speaker on maximum volume (placed at Künst Kunts) and could barely hear it from the rear entrance, and that was in total silence.

dropping a list of questions that I raised in a private chat, which should probably be transparently answered here:

1. Who would buy/provide the sound meters?

2. How would the Rangers/Site Lead contact the responsible sound person for a camp at any time?

3. Additionally, I would like to know exactly what is the protocol if we receive a noise complaint from a neighbor or the police?

4. What should we do if we are unable to contact a sound camps responsible sound person?

5. Assuming that the protocol following a complaint entails reducing sound… for how long, how much, how is it measured, and what do we do if there are additional complaints and/or non-compliance?

6. Additionally, what are the clear db limits to be communicated to camps? As far as I know, the only known db limits that we have are from the amt, which apply to roughly “at the nearest neighbors house”…. surely we do not expect each camp to setup remote monitoring db meters at various neighbor’s houses, so how do we expect camps to measure their sound limits and comply with the limits?

7. Who is doing the sound check? When is it being done? How is it being done? Does Freiland know about this and has it already been arranged and scheduled with them? Who from Freiland is involved in that?

Here is a copy of the draft on-site sound protocols which contain at least some potential solutions to these questions.

I invite everyone to attend and comment please. We need to finalize these by Friday and they will be communicated to all camps.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kvVgFxWOkMD5RlbrruMd1muzvd5TEAL7dgyOGACvCMY/edit?usp=sharing

How does this sound as final definition of 'quiet'

"During quiet time, no music is to be played with an average/peak volume of 75dB at 10m from the sound source. And the sound source must be directed at a large body of land to restrict any further travel"

@Roko @Quentin @Annette

That's the dB of a toilet flushing, and I've just been doing some tests with my phone (inaccurate I know), but it's quieter than the cars going past me here, or my Bluetooth speaker at mid volume (which is lively-living room).

We need some objective way to resolve the inevitable disputes that occur during the quiet time. Common sense is primary, but it will fail when we need it most.

We need a consistent final rule that gives space for workshops and jams and singing and other volumous activities during quiet time, and empowers the rangers/site lead to make a final call on what is 'quiet'.

@Jessie @CJ Yetman

This info (along with the sound protocol above) can be shared in a newsletter and iterated at gate. As well as sent to all camps through site lead and kieze lead.

@Erin Jeavons-Fellows @Cairn (Clément)

The board needs to decide on this and implement it into the on-site protocols by Monday latest

Yes you can use that definition. Yet singing circles or jams are not allowed during quiet times. We agreed upon that, right @Quentin @Annette @Jan-Christian Kaspareit ?

After the definition I would give examples: Examples like the toilet flushing are needed to clarify it for anyone executing the rules aka rangers, site liason.

I would include: 75 db equals the volume of a toilet flushing or a basic bluetooth speaker (e.g. jbl charge 4) at max. volume.

Everything louder is not allowed during quiet time. No drums, no singing circle, no big boom box, no private PA, no scream release workshop.

no big soundbox allowed for prometheans. cannot googlefind tawirless 2, but i got this result.things like this are like a pa.

Interesting, because my speaker fits into the underneath definition, without any clever sound-reduction techniques.

Well this would effectively cancel the fire space at kieze burn.

I had understood PA's as 'Powered Amplifier', meaning mains power.

Oh well....

Freiland knows about planned soundcheck. Eric is involved and sound team should reach out to him for sound check. He will try to help out (he lives closeby).

I think having an official dB limit is cool as an extra tool for Rangers to have an argument and ask people to bring volume down. 

But I still feel that a common sense approach should be the first and main step.In case of disagreement with the ranger, final call will be made with dB measurement. 
I would agree with your below proposal of 75dB measured at 10m from the source.

And most important in my opinion is to forbid any PAs that are too big. If the PAs are here, 95% of chance that the rule won t be followed. 
Soundboks or similar are clearly too big PAs and shouldn't be allowed on site. Any sort of smaller bluetooth speaker (JBL Charge 4, Bose Soundlink,ect...) are allowed. Again 'Living room' level.

If there is no big PAs like those, you avoid almost completely the risk.

Singing circles, jams, fire space, small bar, or any activity can be allowed as far as they remain within the limit defined above.

@Professor Kaos could u send me a picture of this box? i can't find tawireless2.
i was super sure we wrote "The whole rest of the site remains quiet at all time. Maximum allowed is a small bluetooth speaker at living room dB level." in our protocoll :/ Someone of the pirates also told me they will get 4 of these bluettooth boxes and arrange them in a 4.1 system. I could only say: did you check this with kiez burn orga? Wasn't it written down in registering a Kiez that we have heavy sound restrictions and only a few camps are allowed to play sound?

Yes it was written as such, but as I'm sure CJ mentioned a few times, it is too vague for the 800 people who are in the quiet zone and want to know what the real limit of their music is. Who decides what living room sound is? That is a subjective quality. Bluetooth speaker also has a range, is small a JBL extreme (which it is compared to a Rockstar).

I think the JBL charge 4 example is helpful as that provides a more concrete example. But again, with the pirates - if they have 4 'smaller' Bluetooth speakers, and they're spaced apart, is this a problem?

Also, if we only have battery-powered Bluetooth speakers (even larger ones), I cannot fathom for the life of me how the music will ever become the sound levels of the 3 sound camps.

What do the rangers/site leads do when ask of these questions are raised on site? The protocol needs to have concrete guidelines.

My proposal for the execution (see below referring to 75dB at 10m) is an attempt to create a difinitive measure by which the site leads can regulate cheeky camps that might cause problems (at 4am on Saturday morning, which is when these protocols are needed).

So just to clarify, we do "common sense living room music level" as the 1st rule. And when the debate escalates to "but this is how loud I play my living room music!" - THEN we activate said protocol.

And then problematic participant protocol kicks in.

1- verbal warning for breaching and not cooperating

2- yellow card if it happens again

3- (current favourite punishment) no more power for the whole camp if it happens again. For the remainder of the event. Or until the sound equipment is handed over to the site lead until the camp leaves.

OK, so I created a new updated sound protocol. check if u want and we will put it in the main post.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qQpQyPHg_SaimCY5AQxAfFmblZju6DcNu_X8PMeN_LU/edit?usp=sharing

It should have almost all the unanswered questions there. Some things are hard to answer or need to be done on site with testing. Do comments, if you feel like, but I am super busy now with my camp. I hope this suffices and we will have a happy burn.

@Professor Kaos bring you soundbokx and try it out. On the spark event some participants had a bluetooth speaker with them and the neighbour could hear it! small bluetooth box is a small bluetooth box and if someone wants to challenge the protocol or rangers, they are free to do so. we had to communicate to various people that they cannot bring anything loud and tried our best to communicate it. the idea of having specific regions, hollowed & forest, and sound only there was the solution we came up with freiland months ago. if korg still has any specified requirements, comment in the document and we will add it to your suggestions. we think this is enough.

sorry for the prometheans though :( sadly nubicuculia is not allowed to host fire. we would have loved to.

Hello everyone !
Thanks a lot for your work on the sound. I've updated the survival guide (section before kiez burn - preparation ; sleeping) with what i understood from the last document.

Can anyone involve double check this small paragraph:
----------

SOUND 

This year we have a plan for quiet hours and loud times depending on the day. This applies to the 3 register sound camp. The rest of the land should remain quiet (maximum a bluetooth speaker) at any moment of the event.

hey caroline. please don’t write “maximum a bluetooth speaker”. write everyone who intends to bring any kind of sound source (small bluetooth speaker, guitar, drums) needs to read the sound protocol and obey the rules. No one but the registered sound camps is allowed to make sound during loud times.

thank you for putting 🥰

Thanks Roko. Let me know if the sound protocol is ready sometime soon so I can link it in the survival guide (to be sent to comm before Wednesday)

Excellent doc Roko, much more clarity I think.

Yes you're right, the responsibility falls to the site leads and rangers on site, which is why this sort of a doc is really helpful.

Are you still going to have a 'universal sound lead' (stage manager) on shift at all times, or is this managed by each camp individually? (They will need active shifts for this right - have you communicated that with the camps? @Jan-Christian Kaspareit @Annette )

@CJ Yetman @Cris @Jessie Would you mind putting your eyes on this and inputting site lead + ranger expertise? Thanks!

To be honest, I don't feel like my comments or opinions are so welcome here because apparently I'm "too negative", but here we go anyway....

• I think this should be / should have been an Advice Process on Talk. For one there’s multiple documents being linked to and it’s very difficult for one to know which is the most up to date one or which one anyone is referring to. Additionally, it would be / would have been beneficial to use the Advice Process template, which guides the proposer to ask themselves and other relevant people important questions, prompts them to seek advice from affected people/roles, etc.

• "TL;DR If you are not a sound camp, you are not allowed to play any kind of music anywhere! ANY! Yes!" - Not only is this inconsistent with other parts of the text, it sounds rather harsh and like a few sound camps have been bestowed with full exclusive rights to play (or make?) any music at all, and I'm not sure that's aligned with our principles, and I'm pretty sure most non-sound camps would not agree with that.

• I’m still confused about the “zones”. I was under the impression that there were areas that were defined by how loud they could be, and the text even says “The sound limits are different depending on the location of the camp”, but what I hear people saying in comments and elsewhere are that 4 music camps have been selected and they’re the only ones that can play music. So for instance, in the Western most “zone”, at least according to the current Site Plan map, there could be another few Kieze beyond just Saloon and Musitopia in that area, so it’s unclear to me whether or not they would be allowed to play music. According to the text, I would say yes… according to what I’ve been hearing, I would guess not.

• “They need to watch/measure sound with the help of the rangers during loud times to not exceed the agreed dB-level.” - Kiez Burn, at the moment, only owns two sound meters, and those will be used primarily by the Site Leads. Rangers would not typically have access to them, and to be honest, they probably shouldn’t. Most people that volunteer for a Ranger shift will likely not know what a sound meter is much less how to operate it properly. They’re sensitive devices, and frankly have never been calibrated (as far as I know) since they were manufactured, so I always measured with both of them at the same time and split the difference. Anyway, to me it’s uncertain how the Rangers would/should assist with this, and if we’re dropping a new task on them, that should definitely we cleared and consented to by at least the Rangers realizers. @Jessie @Cris

• “Note that the exact Db level for ‘moderate’ and ‘loud’ will be defined onsite” - I know it may seem like a minor point, but I still find it a bit unclear how/when these arbitrary db levels will be communicated to the people that need to know…. and maybe more importantly, how these db levels are relevant to the db levels that we're actually legally obliged to adhere to that are set by the Amt

• “an average/peak volume of ~ xxx dB at 10m from the sound source” - This idea of measuring the non-sound camps sound to some specific db level… in many cases, you will not be able to differentiate between the sound coming from a non-sound camp and the sound coming from the sound camp just around the bend, or even from just a group of people walking by having a conversation. Sound is multi-directional, so realistically if you stand 10 meters away from a camp and read 51db, there will be no practical way of saying for sure that it’s coming from that camp, because there will be additional noise coming from everything else around it too. At higher levels, it might be more clear… but at lower “living room” levels, I don’t think this is realistic.

• “to be finalized on site with sound lead and board on site of event” - Don’t know if the Board realistically has the ability to make decisions like this on site. In any case, they should agree/consent to this if this is a task being assigned to them. @Bee et al.

• “no singing circle” - This seems really over the top to me. The purpose of this sound protocol, according to itself, is to prevent getting more sound complaints from the surrounding community. I just can’t imagine any realistic situation where a few people singing would generate a complaint from the neighbors. Maybe if you got all 900+ participants to sing simultaneously, but I seriously doubt there is any way a singing circle would cause a problem

• “The Site Liaison & Amt team will find an independent party as a "Schiedsperson" in case of resident complaints, so we don't have the problem anymore we had in 2019. “ - What is this? How does this work? @Jan Thomas @Annette @Kate

• “This is important to not have fist-fights with an artist that is completely dissolved in their  trance and mistakes a ranger for a drunken hippie.” - If a DJ starts a fist-fight over sound, whether it’s with a Ranger or a drunken hippie, they will very likely be removed from the event.

• At any given time, we have max 2 pairs of Rangers, sometimes only 1 pair… and each pair is only given one radio and they are instructed to stay together for their entire shift. These are potentially completely inexperienced people, with only bare minimum on-site training. It seems a bit unrealistic that somehow these 2-4 Rangers are going to simultaneously manage each of the 4 sound camps, while the 2 most experienced volunteers we’ll have on-shift at any given time are both at the far ends of the site. And there are other Rangers supposedly sweeping the rest of the site for other sound sources at the same time too?

• I don’t believe this process will take less than 30 minutes. Getting everyone to the right location, waiting for up to 20 minutes for a camp’s sound lead to show up, taking successive measurements, as the sound camps lower their sound, etc. This means that our entire internal safety infrastructure (excluding paid services like First Aid and fire department) will be entirely wrapped up in this process and unable to respond to or notice any other problems going on or that might occur. I also worry about what will happen if this process bridges over a Ranger shift change... there'll be no one at the Ranger station to meet the oncoming volunteers, no clear way of shifting out all the Rangers spread out at the different sound camps. @Cris or @Jessie any thoughts about that?

• I think it would be prudent to have a protocol for what happens if we get a second complaint on the same day, like… all sound camps are turned off completely until the next day… or something.

• I am very much opposed to this idea of making the Site Leads confiscate people’s property. That’s a can of worms I definitely don’t want to open.
  

Thanks CJ for the clarity of thought and input.

You have touched on many points and cleared up some misunderstandings for me:

• The dB levels and ranger protocols is too complex and we have less rangers than I was aware of. That is unlikely to work.

• I agree we need to focus on not getting a sound complaint, as opposed to restricting everyone from having a loud conversation on site.

• The workshop team and all camps didn't get the implications of the 'completely no sound' quiet time in the planning, so there will be countries workshops that involve shouting, singing or some need for 'above living room volume music (which I still don't have any idea who's living room we're talking about)'

• dB readings are clearly unpopular and unreliable from everyone. Perhaps we just have the first section (- SL measures dB readings from the back emergency exit - and then makes a judgment call to turn the volume down?)

• We can get Walkie talkies to the sound-lead for each camp for quick communication (and put them on I.e C4). I am concerned this will not be very effective but if it saves a few site leads some extra walking occasionally then imo it's worth it.

• I like the second complaint in a day lowers triggers 'quiet mode' unto following day.

• I and JCK will be involved in the Sound tests on site. We will be representing the 'the board' in this case.

• It seems the agreement with Freiland was not that there were 'zones' but more 'camps'. Or so it has been communicated with me, and the doc text.

• Ultimately, the sound leads have explicitly stated that they will not be regulating the music on site (hence my desire for some objective measure for the site-leads to decide and act upon sound-breaches). In the end, we (the site leads) may just have to periodically check the exit points and make a judgment call as to whether the event is being too loud or not.

• I can't fathom how a connected group of small Bluetooth speakers, or any battery powered device will compare to the sound of the sound stages during moderate and loud times.

'no one but sounds camps can make sound during the loud times?'

So if the Bluetooth speaker then also banned? What about the singing circles?

Third 'no sound at all' and 'only a Bluetooth JBL charge 4 at living room volume' is conflicting information that is confusion a lot of people.

Can we just leave it at (for the survival guide):

'in order to address some major sound problems faced in 2019, only sound from a Bluetooth speaker (I.e. JBL charge 4) outside of the sound camps will be allowed. The neighbors are close'?

Making 1000 people read all the survival guide and then the entire sound protocol, and expecting them to 'obey' might be a little unrealistic.

nice! thanks for input. for any changes in the doc, it would be nice to have the exact wording korg wants to have. u can comment in the doc. i am short on time for this, but maybe i will make it in a week or so. if any other member of the sound team has time, put.

Hi @CJ Yetman, a short answer to you question... "the Site Liaison & Amt team will find an independent party as a "Schiedsperson" in case of resident complaints, so we don't have the problem anymore we had in 2019. “ – What is this? How does this work?

At the last burn, we had the problem of not being able to clearly prove we were within the agreed upon dB levels approved by the Amt. The police did not have a measuring device. So now we would like to cooperate with an independent party to do an independent and fair measurement. So when we get a call/visit/complaint, that (non-Burner!) person will take a measurement and decide if we are too loud or if everything is within reason. If we are too loud, we must clearly turn down the volume. If it is within the limits, we are legally on the safe side – but we can still check to turn it down a bit.
@Jan Thomas @Annette

I have attended and been an active participant in every Kiez Burn since the first in 2017, and I know that there has been much discussion and debate over sound, both for the sake of various Burners desires regarding noise, and even more for the contentment of the neighbors and to preserve our right to use the space. I want to thank everyone who has worked so hard to find solutions to difficult issues.

That being said, I have just read the version 2 of the proposed sound protocol for Kiez Burn, and have to say that I am in utter shock and dismay. The new rule that prohibits noise of any kind outside of the 4 sound camps, including non-amplified singing and moderate/large bluetooth speakers, should be presented to the entire community, as it affects all of us. With this new sound protocol, which places all significant sound INSIDE of the 4 sound camps, Kiez Burn effectively becomes a silent burn, plus large sound stages. If this protocol is approved, any workshop that intended to use a large bluetooth speaker, or to sing, or to drum, or to yell, would need to be moved to a sound camp during a Loud time, including ecstatic dance and all types of performances which have already been planned, placed, and published in our program. We as humans are largely moved by music, and to be forced, without a public decision nor discussion, to have NO chill out spaces with ambient music, to not allow parades through the site with voices or with bluetooth speakers…this is a HUGE alteration. And a LOSS of uncountable proportion.

I have a personal stake in this, and all those in my camp are affected by this. I am the Destination Lead for The Observatory camp, and our concept hinges on being a non PA chillout space and space for destinations (workshops, performances, audio/visual installations). We have worked so hard to create a non-loud place where burners can come be transported into other worlds…and this new rule will destroy our dream. For example, we have been rehearsing a choir performance that will be sung inside of our dome. We are also offering a The Importance of Dancing Like an Idiot workshop, that will require moderate bluetooth speaker sound. We plan a Shameless 80s parade through the festival ground with a bluetooth speaker soundtrack. We have a beautiful art installation that runs every single night with a bluetooth soundtrack of ambient music plus projections. We have a Kiez Kat Club destination, that includes a soundtrack for dancing. To this end we plan to use a JBL Boombox which we will NOT use at full volume. We already purchased it, and it is too late to alter our dream allocation to buy a smaller one. The sound quality of a small speaker is terrible and barely audible, that’s why we chose a larger one. We will play inside of our dome, which should shield the noise. But because of Covid precautions, we may need to have the sides lifted. Which will allow some sound bleed. We don’t know yet. A small “JBL charge 4” is not sufficient to be heard well within our 6 meter dome. When we placed our camp, we were in a medium sound zone. Now those distinctions have been deleted. 

Kiez Burn has always allowed small sound everywhere. And now the sound stages are the ONLY soundmakers and sound curators of the whole burn. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a techno-head and a raver. I love to dance the night away to a fabulous sound system under the stars. But I am equally not hoping for a burn that is silent everywhere else, without magical gatherings of tiny sound, sparkling all over the Gelände. I feel that in an attempt to limit the sound complaints, the protocol focuses only on enabling the sound stages to provide dance music, and forgets all of the rest of us. We at The Observatory never planned to be a sound camp. But we do plan to make low level sound. I am sure we are not the only ones who created a concept around this.

I ask that this drastic alteration of the sound protocol be put the the community for their reaction. And altered if there is dissent. I ask that this be broadcast via the Telegram group, and the newsletter, and Facebook. I know time is short and that the protocols need to be finalized. But please do not let this fly under the radar…LET OUR (QUIET) VOICES SING AND OUR QUIET MUSIC PLAY IN FREEDOM THROUGHOUT THE BURN!

Signed,

Jaina & the 17 other members of The Observatory camp

With 12 days left until build starts, who will this person be? Did we make any attempt to find someone who is willing to be called in the middle of the night?

If I remember correctly, when we negotiated with the amt in 2020, they told us that they don't care so much about the fact that we stayed within the required dB levels and rather about someone complaining.

Mr. Hardt from the office indicated last time that he could take this responsibility. We have sent our application and are currently in discussion with Ms. Witt. I hope there will be an update here in 1-2 days. @Purzel @CJ Yetman @Annette

I loooove our sound stages but maybe we would be better off with one less and all the other camps being able to still have their workshops, singing and other ways of expressing? Especially before midnight?

That sounds great, thanks! How do the Site Leads contact this person?

@CJ Yetman I always love your input and comments. Thank you for all your involvement and feedback!

I have to agree with @Jaina Hirai here. We are also not planning to blast sound but the rules of no singing and a single "jbl charge 4" would be extremely limitative for our 30 people camp that is planning to host others in an open space and sometimes do some activities.
I would love that the guidelines are a little more relaxed during the day (until 22h as the law says)- during the night they could stay as they are. Any way I can help making this happen?
Marta & 26 other members of the MellowSubmarine.

I also @Jaina Hirai a burn should be accessible for all, restricting all burners expect a few sound camps feels very limiting. Could it be possible for the loud camps to be silent for a few hours in the day so that the medium camps can host workshops with sound you can easily talk over, acoustic music ect.. I'm thinking how the sheep did this in 2019 . And we had "silent" hours from 8AM to 3PM i think. Specially for workshops and acoustic music so they don't have to battle with large sound camps.

So the "silent" hours were not actually silent, they were time for low-level sound from workshops etc. from all camps?

Yes indeed, lets call it different sound so that all sounds has time to be heard

Thanks Roko for updating the guidelines with some more details!
Also super happy to finally see more people involved in this thread and expressing their wishes regarding sound! Better late than never :)

This thread and the guidelines have been out for several months now, as well as the information of quiet camps at all time outside of the designated are for sound. It has been agreed with Freiland and the sound team, communicated here, on the Facebook group, on the Kieze FAQ, and all existing channels.

I will update the guidelines based on the feedback that came here now and the different comments on the doc, but be aware that they won't drastically change just some days before the event start.

I believe one of the main question remaining for me is the definition of what is allowed for all camps outside of the sound stages.
Reading the feedback below, it seems that dB measurement are considered unreliable and/or difficult to implement. But also that the definition 'living room dB level' is not precise enough.
What is your clear proposal regarding this 'quiet definition' topic?

Overall I fully agree that more flexibility should be given for self expression and that 'singing circles' or similar activities that can stay within reasonable volume should be allowed.

I have to disagree with you @Quentin that this sound protocol has been publicly available "on all existing channels". I just checked the Kiez Burn FAQ and there's no mention of sound. Nor have I seen it on Facebook, or on the Telegram group, and it certainly hasn't been an advice process. And the newest sound protocols were only written last week, and have not been published for review outside of this specific sound talk thread.

To be fair, this "🔊 Sound Protocol KB 2021 v2 🔊" document that is being discussed was just created last week.... and it's also out of sync with the text above, so there's obviously a lot of confusion over what things really are or what people are referring to.

examples of where these are out of sync:
- here it mentions "A and B zones".... the new(?) guidelines in Talk suggest there are only "Sound camps" and "quiet areas"
- here it say "Decibel meter must be placed in each sound camp", which is not mentioned anywhere in the guidelines doc
- here it says "all sound related rules should be clearly explained to each camp before the event starts" and in the guidelines doc it say that they will be determined on-site
- etc.

Please read the FAQ carefully. It's in there for like a month or so.
There has also been 2 posts in the last few months on the FB group, asking people to contribute on this Talk thread about this sound topic.
The update from last week is not a new sound protocol. It is just an update with more details about what is 'living room level'.
You can also check here the first version of the sound protocol that is available for almost 2 months: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JWJ01WoEukL35_lsKBKSx0VHnZbKKEdFA5dN5h8mp80/edit
It clearly says from the beginning: 'The whole rest of the site remains quiet at all time. Maximum allowed is a small bluetooth speaker at living room dB level.'

I feel sorry that you missed that info beforehand, and I hope we can all find a good solution for the final version of the guidelines :)

Yes, I agree that this new updated version brought some confusion and is out of sync with the text on this thread. This will be updated.

@Quentin thank you for this, I see it in the Kieze FAQ document now.

Thx for tagging me @CJ Yetman Because of my Virginity status I feel like I cant really distribute constructive content to this topic. I just feel, that we rangers need a clear guideline. I also want to point out, that the Rangers already have new "tasks" to fulfill (Lake, Dogs, Covid). As a realizer, I would prefer a manageable solution. @Cris Feel free to add your point of view, since you are the one with more experience.

After all, the problem is not singing circles (a group of drunken burners at 5am are much louder and we will definitely have some background noice all the time), it becomes serious when the neighbours get upset about the loud sound systems... To more easily respond to complaints there was an idea to simply have 1 person on sound lead shift for the entire Kiez Burn, taking care of all camps and sound sources at once. In addition to the camp shifts. This would also relieve the rangers a bit!

Important: As part of the site liaison I want to clearify that the sound concept is not a decision by any soundcamp that wanna go maximum loud or people that want to overrule others to be quiet. Having only 3 sound areas that are used by 4 sound camps is based on the request from the owner of the site, considering the neighbours and previous events this summer and the allowed regulations. This has been a long process since the beginning of the year. I just would love to appreciate the work of the sound team that based on these requirements tries to develop guidelines for the participants to follow. It is still a process and I am also happy to see more people involved and raising questions about the guidelines.
"Let's enjoy to burn together and remember that we do all this because we had issues in the past years and that this location doesn't allow a full self expression for all."

Don't want to repeat what's already been said - I agree with pretty much everything that's been pointed out over the past couple of days and am looking forward to the next version of the guidelines. Few additional points:

• 100% agree that the v3 of the sound guidelines needs to bring better balance and allow the non sound camps to also do their stuff - i.e. the definition of quiet needs to be relaxed. The purpose of the guidelines is to prevent ongoing complaints and possibly having the event shutdown, which we only narrowly escaped in 2019. Singing circles, a cabaret, workshops with bluetooth speakers or even a screaming workshop (during the day) are not what caused us trouble, the problem was purely having too many big soundsystems playing in too many spots across the site - for a full 5 days until 6am, and less than 2 weeks after Freiland had a 3day event. The sound concept reflects these risks well already by reducing loud sound to 4 loud camps in 3 loud zones that are placed in accordance with Freiland. There is no need to restrict the burn experience for others - we should give longer lists of what's OK but also make super clear that unregistered PAs are not allowed, neither are large USB powered speakers like the ones @Professor Kaos and @Quentin have. Where exactly the line is here can be difficult and will probably end up being a judgement call for the site leads, which I think is OK.

• To manage the sound level of the main sound camps - there was discussion (and I believe even agreement) to use limiters on the sound systems, to prevent anyone from going louder than agreed during initial measuring in before the event. What happened with this? I believe this would help immensely with preventing us from exceeding the allowed dB levels from the Amt, as we know from experience how slippy the slope is and how quickly someone can start turning things up when "fully into it".

• Once we have received the allowed dB levels (as measured at any neighbors house) during different times of the event, we should also consider to make a difference between quiet during the day and quiet during the night. In both 2018 and 2019 during the day we never got complaints, plus there tends to be some wind during the day which also relaxed the situation and makes most of the planned activities for non-soundcamps OK. But the wind typically calms down at night so that everything becomes more easily audible and potentially disturbing for neighbors. Running a singing circle or screaming workshop during the day (e.g. during quiet times on Wed 6pm or Thu 1pm) should be perfectly fine - but during the night (e.g. Wed 11pm or Fri 2am) it will certainly not be... The guidelines currently don't reflect that and i believe they should.

I am sorry that some parts of the Kiez Burn Community did not understand the impacts of having sound complaints earlier. We def. need to work on communication! It's frustrating to read emotional reactions of active members of the community pointing their fingers with unsufficient information. It's fascinating how people try to find someone to blame as soon as their "rights" are being touched. Welcome to the club of sound affine beings. The shock @Jaina Hirai and their camp feel, is the shock we felt when we first heard about Kiez Burn being a quiet Burn. That's why we became active to protect our rights, worked on this months ago and put the blame in the direction of its offspring (which is neighbours calling the police). I am completely on the side that I want everyone to fully express their power of volume - that's why I put proactive energy in it. Yet, there is a long story behind why it's not possible and it's not about expressing our opinions/emotions anymore, especially not two weeks before build. It's about finalizing the protocol to have the rangers put it in action. Please be aware of what energy is promoted to solve this situation. The v2 of the doc is 4 days old. We have reasons for all decisions made - but some need to be finalized. Happy Do-ocracy community. <3
If someone wants edit rights for the doc, say it.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And I wanted to leave this fb comment here, so the sound team and korg 2022 know to what kind of "participants" they are gifting their work to to make sound happen:

"A. These proposed sound rules are fucking bullshit and read like they could have been drafted by some spreadsheet loving misophonic dickhead with a very poor understanding of sound propagation. 75dB at 10 meters? Wtf? Measured with what equipment? Do they mean dBA or dBSPL? And what if some given small sound source is in fact less than 75dB when measured from 10m away, the surrounding environmental sounds and the sound which carries from the permitted louder camps is already 75dB+?Fail, D minus with an E for effort. See me after class."

Thank you everyone for the work put into these Protocols and all your feedback and comments! ❤️

I added comments directly on the v2, but here some points from my side of life:

• great the addition of what kind of device is allowed and which isn't. Agree with everything @Jan Thomas said about the singing circles &Co. def not being the problem.

• I understand proper dB limits will come up during the sound check on Wed or Thu. This numbers should end up clearly written on the Rangers Hütte. @Jessie

• Rangers will support in the sound check, and whenever the "Sound Protocol breached" or "Sound-problem-solving-protocol" is triggered. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not their duty and are not trained to discuss with any DJ, but to communicate with sound camps' Sound Leads/responsible person.

• Sound Leads from the 4 sound camps are imo responsible for this trigger not to happen, brief their DJs and kiezmates, and install the sound limiters somewhere far from the mixing table :) @Erin Jeavons-Fellows

Hey @Roko

I believe there is a little update to make to the survival guide but I'm not sure how to phrase it exactly. Can you help me? Now it says:

This year we have a plan for quiet hours and loud times depending on the day. This applies to the 4 register sound camps, placed in the 3 sound areas. The rest of the land should remain quiet. Everyone who intends to bring any kind of sound source (small bluetooth speaker, guitar, drums) needs to read the sound protocol and obey the rules. No one but the registered sound camps is allowed to make sound during loud times.
https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/XWu9B5kT/sound-concept-guidelines

We should add explanation of what it means by "the rest of the land should remain quiet"

Thank you!!

Tagging @Quentin for further details.

The draft will change again in the next 2 days, so it might be better to not draft up the sound part of the survival guide just yet.

Sorry for the delay.

@Quentin

Hey Caroline,

So far your text looks good, except the very last sentence that I would delete as it is not correct.

Non registered sound camps apply the 'quiet' rules at all time.

We are working with Site and Ranger leads in order to finalize the guidelines.
Final version will be shared here early next week, and this will be the base for the survival guide.

If you can wait until then, that would be perfect!

Thanks :)

Ha... I would really like for the survival guide to be out in the newsletter this week to let time to read it. So deadline today...Will it be possible to have a small sum up? I will add the date of the final sound protocol on the guide, with the link to the thread

Le jeu. 29 juil. 2021 à 11:32, Quentin (talk.kiezburn.org ( http://talk.kiezburn.org )) notifications@kiezburn.org a écrit :

@Professor Kaos This link is also not working.