talk.kiezburn.org

What to do with leftover dream tokens? - first orientation

S Saskia Public Seen by 158

!!!VOTING IS LIVE NOW!!!

What are we discussing?

Here we discuss and decide with Kiez Burn Participants what is going to happen with leftover tokens.

Why are we discussing that here?

Because decentralizing the art grants situation and letting the community have a say in what's going to be on the event was the core idea of the dreams platform. Hence they should also have a say in what is going to happen with unspent tokens. This is in line with consensual do-ocracy.

If we're so radically do-ocracy why don't we leave unspent tokens unspent?

  • Leaving thousands of euros on the bankaccount of the Verein makes virtually no sense at all and also might come with implication in terms of taxing, finances and Vereinsrecht
  • It is in no ones interest that we save up money from tickets that people bought for this year and not use it for the experience ticket holders paid for. There is no force to vote. Not using the money people paid because they have not used their tokens would be punishing the whole community for the non-volunteering of the inactives. This would be a minus-minus situation
  • Veto by one Dream Guide. They will not walk up to dreams which did not get funded and tell them 'Well there is money but we decided to not spend it because people did not use dreams enough."

What are leftover tokens?

There are going to be unspent tokens (aka tokens that never got spent in the first place), Tokens that belong to yet unsold tickets (we are basically sold out tho) AND there are going to be 'comeback-tokens' (aka tokens that got assigned to projects which did not hit minimum funding).

How is the decision making process?

  1. We gathered Ideas with the dream whisperers (done)
  2. Gathering Ideas from the community (done)
  3. Getting some input from tech, finances and other positions wether or not they are actually ABLE (tech wise) to work with the ideas presented (semi-done)
  4. Have an anonymous dot voting (In Progress)

  5. Apply the options in their ranked choice outcomes until most tokens are spent (after voting ended)

Important: Some of the options available can be implemented parallel or can be used in conjunction. Also we will most likely run through more than one round of distributing leftover tokens. F.e. the first choice is to fund all public service upgrades up to their minimum funding goal. This will not use up all the art grant. In this case we will then switch to the 2nd favorite option. Another option would be the proposed algorithm which would take care of distributing ALL the tokens

Chances

This is a chance to cancel out biases in the token system. Biases that can be cancelled: Camp bias (camp-based projects have a tendency that camp members spend their tokens on their own camp), Recency and Latency Bias, Bias towards entertainment and away from public service, Bias for big projects which need a lot of funding.

There is a good chance that 30%-50% of tokens will go unspent, especially since this is the first year we are using the Dreams platform. Once we have all the ideas, we we should rank them - as there will probably be several ways to distribute funds before we run out.

Current ideas

The ideas are sorted. They are ranked after dot-voting results among dream guides/whisperers from favorite to least favorite. Options 6 to 8 did not get any votes from dream guides.

  1. Funding public service upgrades which are within 25% margin of their minimum goal
  2. Popularity based system - prioritizing projects which have a lot of individual contributers instead of projects with a few generous backers and fund them up until their minimum goal
  3. Funding dreams which are NOT part of a camp but brought by individuals which are within 20% of their minimum goal
  4. Priority system within the ranking system -> e.g., projects are ranked on priority of lowest % needed to meet the minimum funding. E.g., projects with smallest % to meet their minimum get prioritized over those with larger percentage
  5. Funding dreams which are within 10% margin of their minimum goal to get them the minimum funding.
  6. Randomly distributing leftover tokens** to ALL projects which are not fully funded
  7. Randomly distributing leftover tokens** to all projects which have **not yet met their minimum funding goa
  8. Funding projects that have already met their minimum, but could be even better with more funding

Some Ressources & Links

Borderland Post Refarding Redistribution Decisions made there 2018

KW

Karlo Walz Mon 15 Apr 2019 10:34AM

If our project gets too many tokens, for example with this random prcrss or whatever I would like to donate the tokens to another dream. In this way t would be nice to have this chance of redistributing. at the same time i do not know how tokens are translatd into euro which i would like to know in advance ;-)

I would propose that the core team do get a few mire tokens they could use for public service dreams.
unspend tokens shouldremain unspend. the question is a bit the timing. why do you limite the time to spend the tokens. I would suggest the tokens can be used till kiezburn will start.

S

Saskia Thu 25 Apr 2019 11:33AM

1 Token is 2,64 Euros

DU

Deleted User Mon 15 Apr 2019 7:53PM

Dont forget the tokens of underfinanced projects!

I would suggest the following system:
1. Distribute all the leftover token based on some system (any system)
2. Take a project with lowest finance rate and redistribute its tokens among other projects.
3. Repeat until all tokens distributed or no more projects left.

Concerning the algorithm, I would rather go for relative distribution. Say 1000 tokens are invested by users, 2000 are left. so for each 1 token a projects has I would give 2 points from the pool 2000/1000, until the project reaches its minimum/maximum target.

DR

Daniel Regev Wed 17 Apr 2019 10:02PM

Hey @saskia31 , thanks so much for this post, I think it's crucial. I've been thinking about this and was wondering what's the plan for all the leftover tokens (there will be A LOT of them). There are also different kinds of "leftovers" (e.g those of people who didn't vote, but also those of projects who were not funded".
To be honest, this one is really difficult.
I am quite uncomfortable with prioritizing some projects over others because they are "infrastructure" or what-ever (#1). If KBorg decided on de-centralization then that should be like that all the way, and not do a d-tour now by prioritizing those things (rangers, welfare, wristbands etc) over others. I feel that's not fair, and not consensual.
Also #2 is quite problematic - if the system says 10 tokens per person, then this is the system. This suggestion could be good in case of a tie, serving as a tie-break, but def not to decide who will get more leftover tokens! This is very unfair and basically changes the system at the last minute with a huge bias.
The rest (#3-#8) makes more sense to me but i found it also quite unclear in some cases... "get prioritized" is very generalizing. I want this to be fair, and to be fair it has to be clear, so would be cool if more people get involved in the discussion!

Another important point to think of, is how many projects are likely to "drop/skip/pass" in case they get only their minimum or a tiny bit more. I forecast a few of these cases. Would be shame if KB top-up a project so it can reach the minimum, but then having the dreamer passing/skipping. So maybe also another communication round by the dream-guides with their dreamers could be useful (at some point, i'm not sure which) to check on how projects are doing in terms of that.

W

walto Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:50PM

I personally struggle to formulate an opinion before voting ends. Would be interesting to have some scenarios play out.

KW

Karlo Walz Tue 23 Apr 2019 5:43PM

I would follow 2 ideas. a) if a dream did not get the minimum tokens we give them back to the original owner and he/she can do what they want. b) we male a pdf booklet with all dreams and send to every who still have tokens as a second cycle to support dreams with tokens.
finally I would then change the exchange rate for tokens to align 50% of the gap, assign another 20% to essential dreams and keep 30% for overspending dreams to get these covered after the burn (postdream-assignment).

W

walto Tue 23 Apr 2019 8:03PM

The goal would be to communicate a final yes/no + exact amount for every dreamer after the deadline ends. We would want to avoid another round of voting.

W

walto Wed 24 Apr 2019 10:30AM

Here is an interesting post on how Borderland did it in their second year of using the dreams platform: https://talk.theborderland.se/d/2UvtMkJy/state-of-g?fbclid=IwAR3fr6UO2H1U_RlnODW7dtzeIvaRlX_SFMMXvHDDAfVNOCuMV_Nn9kyKazM

S

Saskia Wed 24 Apr 2019 5:09PM

@vladimireske - you have made some interesting statements about using a specific algorithm to redistribute tokens. Do you think it is possible to make your suggestion a option in the dot vote I am going to set up? If yes, could you add it to the list in the post above? ;)

DU

Deleted User Thu 25 Apr 2019 10:31AM

Sure, I did some thinking, trying around and will formulate my thoughts in the evening.

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