Only 18% of dreams tokens spent - proposal

W walto Public Seen by 73

Currently, about 18% of tokens were spent.

I would like to propose to do 2 things:
1. extend voting deadline to the 5th of May
2. Send out a personal email to all ticket holders to please remind them to vote, only focused on the dreams platform

Why do I believe this low % to be a problem?
- it is much harder to distill the community's dream token spending preference from such a limited % of participation
- about 80% of our community is not engaging with the artists & dreams, which is a loss to both participation in terms of helping realize projects + a loss in terms of excitement about Kiez Burn.
- participation begets more participation. Once people see our vision alive, see the co-creation happening, they will be more inspired to participate even more.

why extend the deadline?
I believe we made a mistake in placing the deadline voting close date=date last submission dream. This means that people will wait with voting until the last moment.

By extending the voting deadline, we do not have that problem

how to get ppl to vote?
The communicorns are the best ppl for this, so I made a thread there to discuss it:


Henrik 馃 Mon 22 Apr 2019 10:20PM

Send out a personal email to all ticket holders to please remind them to vote, only focused on the dreams platform

Yes! There is an audience list on mailchimp containing all KB'19 ticket holders, let's send them an email showing stats and maybe some cool dreams that need funding.

EDIT: we could also increase the token value and thus set an incentive to spend tokens, as they're worth more and tell people about it :moneybag:


Henrik 馃 Mon 22 Apr 2019 10:38PM

about 80% of our community is not engaging with the artists & dreams, which is a loss to both participation in terms of helping realize projects + a loss in terms of excitement about Kiez Burn.

this is the first time we're using this system and the majority of the community might not realize it's awesomeness. but they will see/experience it's outcome at the burn and be more inclined to use it next year.


Henrik 馃 Mon 22 Apr 2019 10:42PM

extend voting deadline to the 5th of May

I fear that we might be putting off Dreamers who need to know ASAP if they have the funds to realize their dream. if we do this, we should min-fund dreams which are at >X% and congratulate their creators :medal:


walto Mon 22 Apr 2019 10:52PM

5 more days won't break the bank, won't it? And dreamers that are close to their minimum, already know they are getting close...


Benjamin F枚ckersperger Mon 22 Apr 2019 11:31PM

agree with extend deadline and tell people, that they have to vote (they might not know, nor that there is a deadline!)


Toma Susi Tue 23 Apr 2019 5:46AM

Yes, communication was a little weak on this point, only the recent newsletter was really helpful on these.


Toma Susi Tue 23 Apr 2019 5:43AM

It would be awesome if the remaining unapproved dreams got processed before the deadline extension (which would also be awesome) :)


[deactivated account] Tue 23 Apr 2019 9:31AM

At this point someone/anyone have to get creative. I would suggest make a dream "house of fur and meat" and send an email to every ticket holder asking to use their tokens otherwise the tokens will be evenly distributed financing project like "house of fur and meat". Make the dream fun and scary enough it will be a good hookup, unfortunately 0 time in the coming weeks.

Concerning the distribution algorithm, i wrote a post already on Saskia's thread about tokens. An iterative fair algorithm is the choice here, not some random x% financing scheme.


walto Tue 23 Apr 2019 10:01AM

You are right in pointing out that the distribution algorithm for the non-distributed votes is important and will be the next step. But I would suggest to still focus first on getting the amount of attributed votes up as much as possible.


Alina Tue 23 Apr 2019 10:26AM

Just some input: I for example was holding on to my tokens, because a lot of the dreams I favored couldn't be voted for. Saying "granting disabled". And also more dreams have been popping up day by day so I wanted to save my tokens until ALL the dreams are there and able to vote for. Basically creating equal opportunities for all the dreamers


[deactivated account] Tue 23 Apr 2019 2:17PM



Alex Kaos Tue 23 Apr 2019 11:36AM

I don#t know who decided to extend the Dream Application deadline, but I think that's where the real mistake was. Instead of having 1 week for dream guides to assign themselves and catch up with the radical burocracy of the situation, now it's just a continuing mess of latecomers with half-packed dreams.
On another point, as of the 15th April, NOT ALL DREAMS HAD THE POSSIBILITY FOR MINIMUM FUNDING (the total tokens required for minimum funding of all projects exceeded the Dreams Budget). WE DO NOT NEED ANY MORE DREAMS, and each one added, simply adds complexity to the volunteers trying to support them, on many levels.

My proposal. Close Dream applications immediately. We're already passed the originally agreed deadline (15th April) and do no need any more. Keep the extension for voting until the 5th May, which gives Dream guides the time they need to catch up with all the currenty dreams, and incentivizes voters to now vote. Otherwise everyone is going to hold onto their tokens until the end (a.k.a too late to do anything with them)..


[deactivated account] Tue 23 Apr 2019 2:18PM

Sounds reasonable. I would suggest next time dream application deadline = start of ticket sales!


Saskia Wed 24 Apr 2019 5:17PM

@waldo - I knew there was a reason why I made the facebook post and why I had 15th as the deadline for dreams applications in my books! I knew it wasn't coming from nowhere. @alexxx - did we talk about the deadline for dream application being the 15th at the leads meeting in moabit 2/3 weeks ago?
I was wondering where I got this information from.


Benjamin F枚ckersperger Tue 23 Apr 2019 2:25PM

Ok, so way forward would be:

  1. Close application for new dreams. Approve all existing asap
  2. Fund the mandatory dreams with the minimum amount of the production budget tokens
  3. Extend token voting deadline until 5.5. & send out email to all participants to remind them to now spend their tokens.
  4. After the deadline distribute all tokens left over into all dreams.

Tokens for dreams that do not reach minimum shall be redistributed?


walto Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:45PM

I would not close the application for new dreams, since we communicated end of the month, I feel that needs to be it...It is basically impossible to justify to someone who wants to submit a dream that we closed it, altough before it was communicated differently.

In addition, some dreams still are missing info to be eligible for voting... so I would not grant all dreams a pass on this.

But I will make a quick proposal out of your points, I like them a lot!


Poll Created Tue 23 Apr 2019 3:59PM

Address Dreams last-minute issues (extending deadline, infrastructure grants & communication) Closed Wed 24 Apr 2019 5:00PM

by walto Thu 25 Apr 2019 8:41AM

We will fund the infrastructure dreams, extend voting deadline till the 5th of may and send a personal email (discussion w/communicorns on how to send that email- feel free to join)

We have about 20% participation rate in voting on the dreams platform. In addition, people are confused about infrastructure dreams (is it funded by KBORG or not?).

Because of the above, I propose to:
1. ASAP fund the infrastructure dreams with the amount of the production budget tokens previously agreed & communicated (more info)
2. Extend token voting deadline until 5th of May
3. Send out a personal email to all ticket holders to please remind them to vote (discussion w/communicorns - feel free to join)

Discussions regarding unspent token distribution - this proposal does not cover this


Results Option % of points Voters
Agree 89.5% 17 JH CK MM A BF P V SL JB DU G DR AK W S H M
Abstain 0.0% 0  
Disagree 10.5% 2 DU DU
Block 0.0% 0  
Undecided 0% 50 L B RF F B EM KI E AC C VF K O K RN T EL M TS

19 of 69 people have voted (27%)


Daniel Regev
Tue 23 Apr 2019 4:05PM

I agree, but only if there is a way not to send this email to people who already voted. I hate spam...


Tue 23 Apr 2019 4:07PM

  1. YES! 2. Not too sure. But as there is 1st May in that week i guess not a lot of buying materials and building and making will happen anyway..? 3. YES!

Joice Biazoto
Tue 23 Apr 2019 4:21PM

Good proposals - I would supplement with a FB campaign once all the details are clear


Melina Moeller
Tue 23 Apr 2019 5:55PM

i vote for longer deadline


Tue 23 Apr 2019 7:34PM

I appreciate every action that鈥檚 going to be taken. Extending deadlines seems like a good idea. Also gives us some time. @svendudink : will people be able to apply for power in time when they get the results of the dreams voting at the 5th/6th of may?


[deactivated account]
Wed 24 Apr 2019 8:26AM

I agree in principle but believe point 1 should be amended. I disagree with the printed program (fresh and expensive MOOP in the making, let's go digital/PDF as at Borderland please!) being selected as important infrastructure piece over eco-toilets (!!) and believe Kborg-financed dreams should be removed from Dreams platform if synthetic (i.e. not voting) token allocation takes place.


Alex Kaos
Wed 24 Apr 2019 12:02PM

I would also recommend stopping new dreams being made. I only found out that the deadline had been extended a few days ago, so comms is already fucked and only a few late-comers will miss the boat. The trade-off means that our current volunteers can focus very well on the task at hand and not get torn apart by countless more confused messages and effectivley UNFUNDABLE dreams. New dreams cannot get funded anyways, we're already over our budget ;)


[deactivated account]
Wed 24 Apr 2019 2:31PM

I would prefer the process to should finish as we defined it, cause right now we are changing election laws while already being inside the last election day, cause we don't like the results. Close the vote, close the submission, define fallback as soon as possible and make a vote on it, by the way as of midday 24.04 dreams platform was down.


[deactivated account] Tue 23 Apr 2019 6:34PM

the timeline was really tightly packed... @waldo i think even for experienced hippies to get their head around this. extending feels necessary even though i agree with @alexxx in general....


walto Wed 24 Apr 2019 8:53AM

Hey @alina, thanks for voting. Regarding your points:
- the workshop booklet: this is not what this proposal is about. I can see your point, but during budget discussions, the 650鈧 support was allotted and earmarked for this. Would rather not re-open that discussion within the scope of this vote & topic. We could consider pushing that topic (the booklet) completely to dreams, but it has some interesting advantages, like a map, being able to communicate the 10 principles to everyone again,... You can engage with this topic here:
- We do not fund toilets through the dreams platform. Only additons to those toilets (urinals & deco)

I hope that addresses your concerns?


moony Wed 24 Apr 2019 9:07AM

Hey lovelies, moony here.
I'm part of the core orga group of the Austrian Schloss Sch枚nburn, and we used the dreams platform in the last 2 years, running into exactly the same problems as you guys do at the moment.

Hippies not spending their votes is the harsh reality. I don't have exact numbers in my head, but if you get up to ~38% of hearts spent then you're already a winner.
In the likely case that you're not spending all your dream budget to dreams with above minimum funding at the end of the deadline, I'm offering to share our "upscaling algorithm" (have to check back with the rest of core orga but I'm pretty sure they're fine with this) to more or less justly re distribute the lost hearts.

You're doing a great job!
We'll never reach all lazy participants.
BTW, this year we have decided to use the dreams voting just for ranking the dreams and then distribute funds fairly with our own judgement.


Steffen Lepa Wed 24 Apr 2019 9:43AM

Very interesting. It strikingly resembles reports about experiences with establishing the "R盲terepublik" in Bavaria of the 1920s and the "Soviet" system in early communist Russia: More democracy offered than citizens were actually ready to deliver- same here at Kiezburn :-)
The "solution" to "lazy democratic representatives" was inventing a function to delegate representation to people who would be more active. For KB this would imply that tokens can be "given" to someone else who is more eager to spend them.

See if you are interested in the historic reference.


walto Wed 24 Apr 2019 10:13AM

Any algorithm suggestions are very welcome, thanks so much @moony1 :)


[deactivated account] Wed 24 Apr 2019 12:16PM

agreed with @stefanapel - as much as I would love it to be untrue, the reason Dreams work at Borderland is that the Scandi burner community is much more engaged and used to the radical democracy than ours. This might have been too much too soon with too little communication/gentle indoctrination on what this is all about..... That said, @waldo I really appreciate you are pushing this radical democracy agenda. It will just take a few more years/rounds to start working as it should.


walto Wed 24 Apr 2019 1:34PM

You could also ask yourself what comes first: the tools or the culture? Borderland had in it's second dreams year 46% participation on the dreams platform (so last year) and was extremely happy with that -

I am personally already very happy with the amount of interactions and dreams. The bigger struggle I see is the other side: we decentralized because there was too much weight on a few people pulling things (we did not do it because we simply liked decentralization more). Some of those issues got addressed, but still much remains to be improved.


[deactivated account] Wed 24 Apr 2019 2:22PM

Lazy ticket owners should not bother to come, we need a good Soviet style purge :)


[deactivated account] Wed 24 Apr 2019 7:20PM

yes @waldo - seen the Borderland thread thank you! so i guess we are not doing too badly with 18% participation huh - given it's the first year.......;) and yes, understand re: weight of duty. good to know where it's coming from. thank you for the hard work <3


[deactivated account] Thu 25 Apr 2019 1:57PM

Thanks @saskia31 but I am not sure that conversation explains the decisions made. In any case I do not want to oppose the process. I know it's hard and I know it needs to keep moving. I just wish that the decisions on what "necessary dreams" get funded was also submitted to voting - as the infra projects themselves are (because they are Dreams). I still want eco-pissoirs over beautiful but moopy and expensive program. But I'm going to make myself a cup of camomile tea and keep quiet :p


Remy Schneider Thu 25 Apr 2019 9:12AM

Hey @waldo - I just wanted to confirm that the outcome of the vote is that we wait to close Dreams voting until 5 May? We keep Dreams submissions closed at 30 April. Correct?