talk.kiezburn.org
June 10th, 2021 16:33

General Toilets Thread - key info here

Kaliope
Kaliope Public Seen by 98

Toilet Realisers KB21:

@Erez & @Jack & @Dan de Lion!

Role description & responsibilities

will update table as needed

What?

Who?

Liaise with

Toilets provider Liaison

@Jack

@Jan Thomas and @Kate (site liaisions)

Provider: Finizio (Johannes) johannes.hoelzel@finizio.de

arrange transport + drop off + pick ups

@Jack

Build crew? or with site if freiland has toilets

capacity, amount of toilets & supplies (toilet paper needs etc)

@Jack

Coordination and training Kieze / Scheißmeister how to manage the eco toilets

@Dan de Lion!

see Volunteer spreadsheet

Coordination with site planning+placement, water & LNT

@Erez

Site Planning Realizer: @Cairn (Clément)

Comms with Finance lead regarding deposit etc.

@Jack

schatzmeister: Alex (Lord of Fire) @Professor Kaos


current situation summarized

(including updates / input the 💩 whatsapp and telegram groups)

  • 💩 Freiland installed 10 compost toilets, mostly in groups of 3. They come with 2 urinals each on one side and a hand washing station on the other. They are self built and can be moved.

  • Finizio has cancelled on us last-minute which is really 💩!

  • @Jack tried with 4 other providers so far but no luck

    • Goldeimer - not doing festivals this year

    • Ökoje - festival too far away

    • Ökolocus - no answer yet, decision still pending

    • Nowato - cannot provide toilets for rent but we could purchase them for 1250€ per unit plus delivery (exceeds budget)

  • need to make sure we have enough (and also enough tanks)

  • need an extra toilet for first aid

  • 20 toilets in total suggested for KB2021?

Placement:

  • for Freiland shit boxes – get in touch directly with Ponk/Eric from Freiland (via @Annette @Kate), they can move their toilets to whatever spot we need them

  • place one toilet and handwashing station next to the first aid tent. It's a request from first aid to maintain Hygiene standards (questions? @Purzel)

How do Freiland toilets work?

The solid waste goes into a big regular wheelie rubbish bin that is exchanged when full. The liquid waste flows through pipes from the urinal and the bottom of the wheelie bin into a barrel that is located lower in the ground (gravity). the barrel has a pump at the bottom to pump out the fluid into a big 1000L IBC container.

Open points

  • Pussoirs (Pissoirs for pussy owners) - conduct poll to see if there is interest

  • if yes, need to liaise with build crew

  • hold shit fundraiser?

  • Liaise with Covid /LNT @Friso Teams (and Kieze) regarding hand washing stations

  • Determine and communicate exact training date with kieze scheissmeister (Dan)

  • Possibly signage on how to use the toilets

Related threads

Urinals poll

Hygiene concept for toilets thread

Communication with eco-toilets provider thread

Past experiences

previous realizer (@Andreas Noack / Wasserprinz) in this document

most important 2019 info / Feedback:

  • 14 eco toilets (7 for build and an additional 7 on tuesday before the event started) were rented. total cost: 3250 Euro everything included.

  • need way more capacity in 2021. In 2019, it all spilled over and some had to dig their own poop holes. 100 x 100 Liter tanks just wasn't enough

Bee

Bee June 10th, 2021 17:21

Hey, I have sent the link to this page to Erik (not sure if he is signed up on Talk yet) who is this year's lead scheißemeister. I think he is erring on the side of caution with toilets anyway with booking more compost toilets than the ones we have on site (through Finizio). I will add you to the telegram poop group too. ;)

Kaliope

Kaliope June 10th, 2021 17:30

Hey, thanks for the connection! If Freiland builds the new toilets (which they want to do anyway), it's very likely that we won't need any additional ones. We might need to discuss how many tanks we have available. Let's talk about this again, just add me to this group (or better lead everyone to Talk) :)

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 17th, 2021 07:29

@Bee would you be able to add on this thread a description of the role of toilet lead, and list the responsibilities etc etc? so next announcement I could link people here. Lemme know otherwise I find another way to offer this info. Thanks

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 17th, 2021 07:32

@Kate I took the advantage of using this very thread to recruit a toilet realizer, hope is ok!❤️

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 21st, 2021 10:29

TV

Tatjana Viaplana June 27th, 2021 10:40

Hello Shitburnerheroes!
I'm a long time Nowhere Burner. My Question: Are there women pissoires planned for Kiez Burn?

Bee

Bee June 27th, 2021 10:54

We have a toilet shit talking meeting tomorrow :D :P Where the new Realizers will be onboarded! We should have answers to this for you but I will make sure this idea is put forward. It may depend on whether the company we hire has this available.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 27th, 2021 11:15

update thread: decision made at Korg Meeting on Spark, we will not rely on Freiland promise to build toilets and we will just rent our own. / may be reserve the total and downsize once we are positive that there are extra toilets on site.

Bee

Bee June 27th, 2021 12:05

*This was a decision made by the Board prior to the Korg meeting. (As it's event critical we do not want to end up underestimating and being in the shit.) We will also know 1 month before our event when Freiland have their event what number they have, it will be easier to downscale from a contractor than to need more when they are potentially all booked out by other events.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 27th, 2021 12:35

there was a board meeting and Korg meeting the same weekend at the same place, I messed up lol 

Bee

Bee June 27th, 2021 13:58

Also I have inquired with Covid team regarding handwashing stations. For the summer camp event Finizio (eco toilet co.) provided a food pump sink next to the stalls. https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/Ud60pHP7/hygiene-concept-x-toilets

TV

Tatjana Viaplana June 27th, 2021 21:58

OK greate. I really loved them, they kind of saved me of being in a hot maybee clean but stinky dixy for so many times! Looking forward to news :)

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 29th, 2021 07:34

I leave here the spreadsheet with the shit masters from each Kiez, still quite a few still need to sign up. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N4lYwkpaOpGLgc4XKJFdCoz9GbwhPpNJj3EdXR9uaS8/edit#gid=1987931505

Important note: I see some of the shit masters arrive on Thursday, this doesnt work with the plan of training prior to the event. @Dan (toilet lead touch point onsite (not on talk yet) must communicate with @Erin Jeavons-Fellows and let the kieze know that the scheißmaster role requires to be onsite from Wednesday on ( historically or it could be done differently, in that case, to coordinate, please!

@Bee FYI

Jack

Jack June 29th, 2021 21:03

Hello guys, I went through all old communication (including the post mortem, a whatsapp and a telegram chat, emails to the provider and a google sheet) to get up to speed with and compile the most important info here on talk in the thread. If ok for everyone, I think its easiest just to keep updating each other on here then its all in one place and not lost across the technology spectrum :) @Bee and @Veroca R. Sala @Erez FYI

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 29th, 2021 21:14

Yay!!! loved it! Thanks for doing all that, is really important!❤️Make this thread yours, we are all here walking the shitty path by your side.

😆

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 29th, 2021 21:18

tagged the LNT lead on the thread ( Friso)

Jack

Jack June 29th, 2021 21:58

@Bee and @Veroca R. Sala I invited you to the poll I created for this. please let me know what you think and if its ok lets send it out (maybe in the next newsletter?)

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 29th, 2021 23:09

Thanks Jack! very exciting to see all this bowel movement lol!

From the documentation perspective:

I understand this is the Parent thread of toilets, It would be resourceful to link the following toilet-related threads:

Urinals poll

Hygiene concept for toilets thread

Communication with eco-toilets provider thread

👌Keep updating this very thread. It's always easier in the future to come back to one thread with all in it. Polls can be made in the comments too and you could get to share the link to the comment itself so people can vote and then update the results in the thread. Reach out for more tricks and tips about Talk ( i am the annoying Talk mutti here).

Here I give you a big reason not to open many threads:

We like to give opinions and drop important pieces of info in random comments, as much as we try to avoid that! the more space you give us to talk, the more we will spread on talk...lol.

You could collect meaningful information from the comments,to have a shiny complete and updated thread🤓 all-in-one🎉

Thanks for taking the lead and for doing all this! it really means a lot. Also thank you for reading this 😆

AND YES, urinal sounds good! lets see what the community thinks no?


DDL

Dan de Lion! July 1st, 2021 20:06

@Erin Jeavons-Fellows Hi Erin, yes, I think its important the shit masters arrive on Wednesday. Could you change the spreadsheet to say they must arrive wednesday?

Ideally I would hold a presentation for all shit masters on the wednesday morning. If need be, I could also do one in the afternoon. Time anf location TBD.

Jack

Jack July 1st, 2021 20:38

Hello @Veroca R. Sala thank you very much for all the input! Ok good to know. Will create a poll next time within a thread, I didn’t know/see that before. The one on comms with the external provider I put separately because it was formatted poorly and I didn’t want to pollute this thread here. Another thread is in a different group I think but don’t worry this one will be the most up to date. 

@Veroca R. Sala My question is when is the newsletter going out and how can I reach the person (Nora?) who is responsible for comms? Would be good to get a good number of participants to make the poll representative.

Jack

Jack July 1st, 2021 21:17

@Bee regarding the total number of toilets (regardless of how many we can use from freiland or not) should we go with 20 then? Or should I speak to the placement leads or other decision makers first?

I’m just a bit worried of reserving with the supplier too late so I think I should get in touch with him rather soon than later, no?

also, do I remember correctly you saying that we have got a small pool of tickets (or better said the chance to purchase one), ie one for the finizio contact person?

Bee

Bee July 5th, 2021 07:40

Hey sorry Jack I was offline all weekend. I would definitely get in touch sooner rathe than later yes :) Alex has confirmed that we would be able to offer 2 directed tickets (gotta pay but otherwise sold out!) for Finizio. :)

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 5th, 2021 08:26

Sounds good!

Newsletter info to be put up in the comments on this thread: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/gkBNEKbs/newsletter-

Make sure you tag @ Nora and make sure she does respond to your tag. Assign one of your team members ot folllow up on the newsletter.

Official Facebook or Telegram post tag me on this thread: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/w90EFymM/aligning-with-comms or private message me =)

Erin Jeavons-Fellows

Erin Jeavons-Fellows July 6th, 2021 11:24

This has been added to the Kieze FAQ, so they are aware of this.

Jack

Jack July 6th, 2021 18:09


Hello Kiezburn community! @Tatjana Viaplana asked whether we will have female pissoirs on site this year. Here is the poll, please have your say! Please note you will have to join this group on talk if you would like to participate in the voting:

https://talk.kiezburn.org/p/K4I8pvcx/would-you-like-kb21-to-have-female-urinals-women-pissoirs-

Stevie

Stevie July 12th, 2021 09:20

Hello, I am a non-binary person and really don’t like the thought of toilets for pussy having people called “women’s pissoirs” or “lady’s toilets” - it does not make me feel welcomed or seen as a non-binary person and is even slightly offensive. As well there are trans men who have pussies. Please be considerate of differently identifying people.

I’m at a festival now and they call them “The Pussoir” which I find classy and inclusive, and they also have a “red tent” area which I also find classy and inclusive.

I would appreciate these things being incorporated and considered. Thanks!

Cris

Cris July 12th, 2021 11:26

Thank you SO much for this feedback!! ❤️

@Erez @Jack @Dan de Lion! I took the liberty to change that wording in the description.

Jack

Jack July 12th, 2021 20:13

Hello @Stevie thank you for your honest feedback. I apologise for having called them something in the poll that reads as offensive and non-inclusive to you. It was not my intention. I was just using the words from the initial person who suggested to us to look into it.

Alina

Alina July 12th, 2021 21:47

Hey guys:) Thank you for all your amazing effort! I was wondering when we will find out which and how many toilets each Kiez has to take care about?
Last year the shifts didn't work to well so this year I'm already trying to cover the shifts before the burn starts. This information would help a lot in coordinating the effort we have to spend.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 12th, 2021 21:51

Thank you for bringing this up, and apologies, I guess we just used the commercial name of it. We have changed it now and re-baptized them accordingly as you suggested: The Pussoir!

Professor Kaos

Professor Kaos July 17th, 2021 11:34

Hi Awesome Sheißmeister team. @Jack @Dan de Lion! @Erez

I can't find the cost for the proposal for the Pussoirs? If you're within your total 5000€ budget with them then you can ignore me. But if the decision requires some approval from Finance I'd like a heads up.

(I only ask because there was an option on the poll of "Bring them no matter the cost"..... which obviously has it's limitations 😉 )

Jack

Jack July 21st, 2021 20:55

Hi Team toilet, @Dan de Lion! @Erez and everyone else involved in the toilet fun!

So I got some bad news, see update in thread. Finizio cancelled on us last minute, which is really 💩 . I have tried 4 other providers but no one is able to rent on such short notice. I still got 2 more I will try but I just want to raise the topic here. Trying to buy the extra 5-10 we need seems out of the question if it blows the budget so much, right? @Professor Kaos on the other hand it would be an investment and they look even better than the Freiland ones...
The two options I can think of are

  • trying to build them ourselves (maybe 5)

  • rent some chemical ones so we meet the Amt requirements ("last resort")

If anyone has any alternative ideas or knows someone please let us know because its a tricky situation with so short notice! Also @Bee @Andreas Noack @Veroca R. Sala @Kate @Jan Thomas

Professor Kaos

Professor Kaos July 21st, 2021 22:43

Ach, that's really shitty...

Well my thought would be, can we get extra build hands to build some on site? @Veroca R. Sala and @Franzi for volunteer and build allowance opportunities.

@Natacha Kromatik @Don for build team capacity and experience in these matters.

If we can make them somewhat nice and leave them on site for Freiland (copying their new system) would they be alright with that? @Annette @Kate.

If we make our own and have to store them, then they need to be collapsible.

If we can get estimated budgets for the differing solutions I can see how things can be arranged. So far we still have the full budget to fix this, which I think should suffice if volunteers can build the units.

Chemical toilets aren't the end of the world either...

E

Erez July 22nd, 2021 07:49

Hi team,

Really a shitty situation.

I can be there on the build for building new toilets, I have some experience but never built it before. Maybe it's good to ask Freiland if they can guide us and help us with this and then they'll have more toilets to use in the future.

Another idea is maybe to make a call for the community if someone have some leads for buying or renting compost toilets

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 22nd, 2021 08:34

Hey from Volunteers Uncoordination:

  • we can get more volunteers for sure. That is not an Issue ( @Erez please confirm to me if you come, when you come, and make sure you register early entry https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfU9UMs4nBpC1o97WM9zBnLlHHyTtiq-wJw10QXhL_K0Az0CA/viewform )

  • How many? I would need to know how many people we need for these extra toilets??? (@Nics would you forward this question to Don or ask if he could check or estimate how many people do we need for this?, just to have an idea. I forward this to natacha via PM as well

  • Kitchen: according to previous conversations with the kitchen lead, adding one single person onsite will already require more hands in the kitchen. We have at the moment: the cook, the helper, and 1 kitchen fluffer for the 30 people we are feeding and it is already tight, going over 30 would require 2 more kitchen helpers to help with ALL the meals for the Build crew + clean up after meals to start cooking again and allow breaks!!!. Tagging @Melinda Gonzalez for her information and opinion)

  • @Professor Kaos are we assigning more food budget if we had for instance 4 more toilets builders+2 more kitchen help?

Thanks

D

Don July 22nd, 2021 08:59

My initial reaction to the prospect of building compostable toilets onsite as part of build is that it is absolutely not a good idea, regardless of additional volunteers being available. I think renting chemical toilets is a much better option. My rationale:

  • DIY compostable toilets are not going to be free of cost. We'll still need to pay for and transport construction materials for them.

  • If we build them, we're responsible if they don't function as intended.

  • I have not seen plans for the DIY toilets. I'm also not aware of anyone who has firsthand experience constructing DIY toilets. Unless Freiland shares plans that they used for theirs, we're making it up as we go along.

  • The consequences of not getting toilet built correctly in time for the event are significant.

  • Making them collapsible/storable adds complexity to the design and increases risk, as well as parts requirements and build time.

  • I don't believe we have sufficient tools planned/budgeted for to effectively work on building multiple DIY toilets in parallel, while still having tool resources available for the rest of our build tasks.

Professor Kaos

Professor Kaos July 22nd, 2021 09:00

I'm curious how 3 kitchen staff can feed 30 people, but to feed an extra 4 people we need 2 more staff? What do I not understand here? @Melinda Gonzalez ?

Toilets also have 5k€ to build 10 toilets and the piss/pussoires, and so the 30€ needed to feed 4 volunteers can come from that.

@Jack

Professor Kaos

Professor Kaos July 22nd, 2021 09:03

Thanks for the input. Great info!

@Kate can we collect Freiland soon about this (it's event critical). Would they be keen to share with us their design and we build some more on site to their specifications (with the total cost estimation!)?

Otherwise we move forward with the chemical toilets, and simply deal with it. Shit happens...

D

Don July 22nd, 2021 09:10

@Professor Kaos I think the only safe/sane way to go the DIY toilet route would be to build them in Berlin prior to the event, and then transport them to the event. Doing so reduces the time and tool pressure, but places an additional burden on transport. That said, it requires a work space in Berlin, availability of tools and transport for materials.

If we are contacting Freiland about this, it would be good to know:

  • Their costs for construction materials used

  • Timeline/number of hands required for construction

That said, I think the cost and transport logistics largely preclude this form being a viable option.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 22nd, 2021 09:14

because as I said, with three we are already tight, we are already overstretching

We have at the moment: the cook, the helper, and 1 kitchen fluffer for the 30 people we are feeding and it is already tight.

Being in the kitchen requires that: BEING IN THE KITCHEN is not like builders or fluffers that are walking and moving around.

This kind of standing-on-job is for most people is underestimated (mainly coz a lack of experience; not saying ppl had bad intentions to underestimate this job).

There is also a lot of pressure to have a bunch of hungry ppl to feed on time. They gotta make breakfast, clear up, start with lunch, clear up, maybe have a break then and start up again with dinner for 35-36 ppl considering probably none of these kitchen staff is actually a professional cook or kitchen assistant that will do the job as efficient and fast. Is a nonstopping job every day in the same scene. This can be stressful.

I think only Melinda has real experience with big number of meals. General kitchen is A LOT of work, volunteers expect the food and I personally would go for NOT having these angel kitcheners stressed out or unhappy onsite.

Annette

Annette July 22nd, 2021 09:20

Freiland installed 10 compost toilets, they are self built and can be moved. If we tell Eric/Ponk a few spots, the boxes will be placed where we need them. They come with 2 urinals each on one side and a hand washing station on the other: 3 x 3 toilets with 2 urinals and hand washing station, 1 x single toilet with 2 urinals and hand washing station.

The biggest problem with toilet is to seperate pee and 💩, also waste management wise. Why don´t we build a lot of urinals and pussoirs around the site that can stay longterm and motivate people to use the available toilets mostly for the big business? Don´t know if we have the ressources and time at build, but this is an inspiration from Wilde Möhre (I think our pussiors can also be more minimalistic).

E

Erez July 22nd, 2021 09:20

Hi @Veroca R. Sala I plan to come on the 6.8

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 22nd, 2021 09:22

Thanks @Don , and @Professor Kaos

Jack said still needs to try out two more companies. Maybe we get lucky with any of those!🤞

otherwise, we will need to go for the chemicals😔

E

Erez July 22nd, 2021 09:38

Maybe we can keep to chemical ones as a last resort and try to build some during the build time. What is the shortest notice for chemical toilets @Jack ?
Of course for this we'll need the guidance and help from Freiland but I think it worth asking them. I'll be happy to build the new compost toilets

Diarmaid

Diarmaid July 22nd, 2021 10:49

The compost toilets are not very complicated. I've made a shitty drawing of them, but they are essentially a wooden box with a hole in it that you can sit on. The floor of the toilet and the steps are made of metal with holes in it, which is good, provides both strength and airflow, and at the back you have a hole where you can put in a wheely bin which collects the actual waste.

The only complicated thing would be the plumbing to take away the urine I think.


Minimum bare bones compostable toilet:
https://www.hipcamp.com/journal/hosting/how-to-build-a-compostable-toilet-in-less-than-45-minutes/

Freiland toilets:

We could also make the toilet so that we could take it apart again. The complicated plumbing is on the wheely bin, not in the toilet box itself.

I'd be happy to take lead on building the toilets if required.

Melinda Gonzalez

Melinda Gonzalez July 22nd, 2021 13:47

We’ll said! One issue is, it’s the same three people in the kitchen. And maybe that third, the Fluffer-helper, is also fluffing sometimes? Of course, toilets are important, but yeah I’m concerned it’s gonna be too much for me and Fabi, as I don’t have much stamina and he’s not much of a cook, he says. We may also have to feed security on Tuesday, so with toilet builders that would be 40 people to feed that day (by the way, Otto said it’s not actually possible to feed more than 40 with this kitchen, so let’s cap it there!)

Professor Kaos

Professor Kaos July 23rd, 2021 07:38

Can we then at least get you another kitchen helper anyway?!?

It's looking like the building of toilets on site isn't so feasible after all. Still, it would be nice to get you another person if possible.

Daphné

Daphné July 23rd, 2021 08:43

Hello and nice to meet you all :) I just took the lead role for toilets in my camp and I'm wondering what it exactly entails? I saw there is a briefing on Wednesday which I'll attend. And I imagine I should make a schedule for shit ninjas. Does every camp also need to plan toilet paper and cleaning material? Thank you so much !

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 23rd, 2021 09:02

Hi @Daphné those are all very good questions! 🤔 @Dan de Lion! is your guy here.

Dan, Maybe we could include these questions in the Kieze FAQ??? like a role description so it's easier for the Kieze to recruit their shitmaster, and make it clear for all Kieze besides Daphné.

I Link here the faq to add the TOILETS topic in it in case you want to add this, (or maybe request @Erin Jeavons-Fellows - Kieze Facilitator - to give you edit access)

Daphné

Daphné July 23rd, 2021 09:54

Hey ! I'm with @Ina Marja Selnes who had an idea for the toilet issue. There is a guy in Denmark who owns a bunch of sushi toilets (short for "sustainable shit") and he might be able to bring toilets on Kiez Burn. Here's his contact for Telegram +45 71444949, he's called AnÞor.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 23rd, 2021 13:59

@Jack 👆

Caroline

Caroline July 23rd, 2021 15:22

On the survival guide it is written to contact the arbeitsam in case of any problem wth the toilet. Is it still the case or should i channge to something like " contact shitninja in the closest kiez" ?
@Dan de Lion!

Jack

Jack July 23rd, 2021 16:24

I will get in touch to speak with him thanks!

Jack

Jack July 23rd, 2021 18:32

So guys, esp @Erez @Dan de Lion! @Professor Kaos @Kate @Veroca R. Sala @Bee @Annette @Don @Natacha Kromatik good news! Now I feel like I know the whole eco-toilet industry in Germany 😆. I found a provider called oekolocus from leipzig who can rent the toilets (excl transport) for 135€ a piece, so for 5 toilets 675€ from 10th-16th Aug. They look quite nice, check it out.

Now the tricky part is the transport and its cost. Apparently they can deliver to KB (5 fit in a regular "sprinter" van, so we could not order 6 or more without the transport cost doubling). Either they deliver and pick up (which is 4 journeys for them), for which they would charge 1€ per km, which comes to about 1700€. We can also pick it up and drop it off ourselves. So can we get someone from the community to go from Leipzig in a Sprinter to KB and back? I presume our own transport would cost a fraction.

If we then also build some simple pussoirs and encourage everyone only to do big business in the toilets, we should be sorted.

I would like to make a decision by sunday so when they check the emails on monday we can get it confirmed.

These particular toilets come with 4 sealable 50L barrels each so we might have to empty them into bigger containers or also get our own additional barrels

Professor Kaos

Professor Kaos July 23rd, 2021 20:19

You legend, that looks great.

If we have to pay them for transport then so be it, but it does seem wasteful to have extra trips.

In my experience, renting a sprinter for that duration should cost under 500€. If we can get 2x sprinters (so 10x toilets) I think KB participants would be very happy!

@Veroca R. Sala Do you mind doing a blast out everywhere to see if someone driving from Leipzig (or even passing through Leipzig) can help out with this, and KB will support the cost of their van rental? They can reach out to finance@kiezburn.org.

50l barrels ok (I don't know what that means in practicality). But if there's a way to get extra barrels so we don't have to handle physical shit on site (just change barrels) then I'm in favour of that. You know your budget X

This is a great turn around, thanks for being a legend!

Purzel

Purzel July 24th, 2021 13:55

The toilet crew will place one toilet and handwashing station next to the first aid tent. It's a request from first aid to maintain Hygiene standards. @Kate agreed and I'm posting it here to document it. Maybe someone can add it to the general description, I don't wanna interfere there 😊

Bee

Bee July 24th, 2021 16:31

Heya excellent news! Glad to have someone who knows their shit with all this research! ❤️ Why are we only stopping at 5 toilets though? ;)

I second Alex that if we have to pay we have to. I think the tricky part will be finding drivers more than renting the van itself.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 25th, 2021 08:02

Hey, so there isn't any Arbeitsamt this year. Im unsure where the Kieze Shitmasters should do/ go if something happens during the event This is Dan who might have an answer.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 25th, 2021 08:40

Hey, I could do the blast @Professor Kaos

Id like to fully understand @Jack what is the plan? Are we only renting 10 toilets + the 9 toilets from Freiland? is this correct? is this more than what e had in 2019?

In 2019 it was very problematic to empty the barrels onsite. I remember this being quite a hassle especially have seen it at my camp on Acid Friday and it wasn't anything pleasant to do/ to see. Could we maybe have bigger barrels more barrels that dont need to be emptied during the event?

AND THANKS! YOU ARE FUCKING AWESOME!❤️🎉🙌

Melinda Gonzalez

Melinda Gonzalez July 26th, 2021 10:46

Can someone please keep me updated if the number of people we are feeding goes up? Maybe toilet crew can volunteer a kitchen helper?! @Erez @Veroca R. Sala

Kaliope

Kaliope July 26th, 2021 16:42

Hi @Jack I finally translated the answers from our call with Freiland 🙂 Feel free to copy & paste whatever is relevant to your thread updates or shit ninja info sheets... if there are any more open questions, or next meeting with Eric is happing this Thursday, please get in touch! We will hopefully have an update on general regulations (Auflagen) from the Amt in 1-3 days, that's when we know for sure how many shitboxes and pissoirs are required. Thx for everything feels like all this shit is in good hands!

Eco Toilet system

  • Freiland installed 10 compost toilets, they are self built and can be moved. If we tell Eric/Ponk a few spots, the boxes will be placed where we need them (send them our map).

  • They come with 2 urinals each on one side and a hand washing station on the other: 3 x 3 toilets with 2 urinals and hand washing station, 1 x single toilet with 2 urinals and hand washing station.

  • Solid waste 

    • goes into a big regular wheelie rubbish bin that is exchanged when full. 

  • Liquid waste 

    • flows through pipes from the urinal and the bottom of the wheelie bin into a barrel that is located lower in the ground (gravity). The barrel has a pump at the bottom (“Sumpfpumpensystem”) to pump out the fluid into a big 1000L IBC container.

  • Waste management – What volume, how did they get rid of it, good solution?

    • Volume: 1000L tank at the main stage needed to be emptied once during 72 hrs Freiland event (500 ppl), incl. shower water and IBCs they had ca. 7m3 waste water in total.

    • First option: We work together with an external company and need to get enough additional 1000L IBC tanks (past experiences – avoid spilling over!). This means we don’t have to move the 1000l tanks ourselves.

      • Company: Entsorger GKU → they are able to come daily, we only need to pay for their journey during the weekend.

      • It's cheaper and more efficient to separate solid/liquid waste / you either pay per m3 or tank (ca. 10 EUR/IBC)

    • Least desirable option: We get a Radlader/Hochlader (loader) to move the 1000L IBC containers ourselves to the sewage pit at the site – which means we need to get less additional IBS tanks in total, but more sober drivers for transport and highly motivated shit ninjas to empty the heavy tanks. Shitty business.

Caroline

Caroline July 28th, 2021 06:55

Hey shitheads!

I need yo know what people should do if they find a problem with a toilet (not enough paper, full, etc).

It's to update the survival guide before tomorow (wednesday)

Curently it says to go to the arbeitsams.

Also, thank you so much on your amazing work on the toilets situation

Bee

Bee July 28th, 2021 18:24

Erez is also doing Build crew for his own camp if I remember rightly from the initial toilets meeting.

Bee

Bee July 29th, 2021 14:33

@Dan de Lion! is the liaison with camps and in charge of training those who will be taking Kieze shit ninja shifts :)

E

Erez July 29th, 2021 14:49

Yes I am on the building crew of my camp :)

DDL

Dan de Lion! July 30th, 2021 07:05

@Caroline , seeing as there is no Arbeitsamt this year, I would say contact the nearest shit ninja, ideally before the problem is critical :)

Jack

Jack July 31st, 2021 09:20

Fantastic @Kate thank you so much for all this info, its very helpful. A few more detailed questions:

  • the pipes, pumps, barrels, IBC containers and wheelie bins, will we be able to use all of them for KB21? Or were they rented?

  • If we can use them, can we get a decent estimate of the accompanying inventory? I just want to make sure these freiland units are fully "equipped" as to speak and avoid emergency trips to the nearest Baumarkt.

Placement

  • @Erez please think about where the 10 Freiland toilets need to be placed (important for build and strike) and communicate in advance to Eric/Ponk (via @Kate / the map) so they are there for when you are building.

  • Same goes for the 10 Oekolocus toilets and the 2x4 urinals and 2 handwashing stations, but they are only on site from 10th - 16th/17th.

  • where can we place our stock toilet paper, saw dust, cleaning products etc? @Cairn (Clément) any idea?

Urine storage / removal

  • My plan would be to place at least 2 IBC containers next to each urinal station, maybe 3 in key locations (to avoid the "Entsorger GKU" coming during the event). So it would be good to know how many IBC containers we have already got and how many more I need to order. the good thing is they arent very expensive starting from 120€ each plus delivery. @Franzi did you say we have 2-3 ex-drinking water IBCs (but now unusable ones) in storage, which we could repurpose?

  • Then depending on the arrangements we might need additional pumps (like this), which cost 50-80€ (much cheaper buying than renting)

Shit storage / removal

  • I also need to order more 50L Barrels for the 10 toilets rented from Oekolocus (10th-16th), how many should we go for? They only come with 4 each. We could also dig a deeper hole and put bigger barrels in but that makes the barrel change for the shit ninjas quite challenging. Also does somebody know if we have something like this ("sackkarre") on site to change the full barrels for the shit ninjas?

  • I will also speak to Entsorger GKU if we can rent barrels / wheelie bins from them, which would make things a lot easier.

  • If we cant "rent" the wheelie bins for the shit that wouldnt be so great, as I have no idea how all the newly purchased stuff will fit into storage then after the event.

I am sure I forgot something in terms of updates and questions, but here we go for now


Also tagging @Bee @Professor Kaos

Bee

Bee July 31st, 2021 20:26

Hey. Absolutely loving your work Jack! :)

Going to tag @Natacha Kromatik (Build) and @Nics (Tools) regarding whether we have access to a 'sackarre'.

Also @Fabi 🦥 is in the charge of the map so please let him know ASAP about the locations please @Erez

In terms of storing the toiler rolls and so on there's potentially space in the tool shed? (What was the orga wagon at Freiland fest). Otherwise I wonder if you could store them underneath it on a pallet & cover with tarp if needed?

We are getting extra storage space for after the Burn, so maybe link up with Thomas (Can't tag for some reason) who is heading up that for confirmation on storing extra things. This space would be covered by KBORG & maybe run by @Professor Kaos in terms of cost for this but I imagine it's not a huge issue.

In terms of how many barrels I think the general consensus of anyone who had to move around very full ones (or witnessed this heroic act) I would say be generous! Not sure how many days it takes to fill a tank but it would better in my opinion to have an empty one left unused that we bought/rented than the other way around.

Nics

Nics August 2nd, 2021 07:06

Hey @Jack, Toolbitch here :) Short answer: we don't currently have a Sackkarre (unless there is one hiding in storage but let's not rely on that).

Can I just make sure I understand this right: we are talking about moving 50l barrels filled with shit across the event site to empty into the Klaergrube on-site ourselves and not getting a professional company?

If we absolutely need a Sackkarre, depending on what quality we need, we might be able to cover one from the build budget. Transport could be a little tricky but let's figure that out if we really need it.

Regarding supply storage in the tool wagon - I haven't seen it yet myself so no real sense of size or idea how much you are looking to store. If there is enough space, tool wagon could totally work. The only question I'd raise is how many people will need access. The wagon will be locked and we'll aim to keep access to a minimum people for security and insurance reasons.

Kaliope

Kaliope August 2nd, 2021 13:45

Hi @Jack, Freiland will be sharing their fully equipped happy shitboxes with us – everything will be included! This means we already have 1 IBC container per toilet at the site, makes 10 in total. Eric mentioned a pump they can provide, we should remind either him or Ponk... do you have the contact? About the wheelie bins idk, there's a hand washing station but no boxes for waste disposal.

Jack

Jack August 2nd, 2021 19:08

Hi @Kate thanks so much for the info again! I also briefly spoke to Jan who will connect me directly with Ponk tomorrow so we can discuss the last details. Wow I’d be surprised they really have 10 IBCs (because they only put down 1 next to each 3x units at their festival). But I will find out for Ponk thanks!

Alina

Alina August 2nd, 2021 19:46

@Dan de Lion! do you already know when the shit Ninja training will be taking place?

DDL

Dan de Lion! August 3rd, 2021 14:48

@Daphné hi Daphné, sorry for the late reply, I was canoeing in Sweden until Sunday. We are in the same camp by the way 😉. The shit ninja is responsible for making sure the toilettes are ready to use (clean, toilette paper and sawdust available, space for pee and poo available). I will explain the details on Wednesday at the briefing

Toilette paper and cleaning supplies are provided by us :)

DDL

Dan de Lion! August 3rd, 2021 15:00

Hi @Alina, I will communicate to the shit ninjas within the next days to organize a time, I might even have 2 meetings one earlier, one later on Wednesday.

DDL

Dan de Lion! August 3rd, 2021 15:07

@Nic, I (shit master in charge of ninjas) would need access. Maybe I could have a daily time window when the shit ninjas can gather the supplies they need for their toilets, wich they will store in camps/toilets.

Nics

Nics August 3rd, 2021 15:14

Hey @Dan de Lion! On access - that sounds like a plan.

Just leaves the space question - any idea how much volume we're starting out with? Roughly? Also, when does it arrive. I'll be on site from Friday eve (this week) so latest Saturday morning will have a better idea how much space there actually is for storage.

Jack

Jack August 3rd, 2021 18:21

Hi @Nics thanks so much so the plan is for the 💩 🥷 (shit Ninjas) to swap the barrel when it’s full, At least for 50% of the toilets ( the others can use wheelie bins but need to confirm tomorrow with the freiland 💩 person). For this task the sackkarre would be very helpful! No, not necessarily for dragging them along the site and emptying but just to be able to swap out a full barrel in the first place.

But yes we might need to empty them at some point, if the waste company can only take it if it can be pumped

Actually quick update just spoke to @Sven Dudink who will kindly bring the sackkarre!

Jack

Jack August 3rd, 2021 18:35

And one more stupid question @Nics there will be a shovel right? The barrels I’m looking at are slightly bigger than what the provider gives us so we might want to dig 20cm into the ground

Nics

Nics August 3rd, 2021 20:37

Hey @Jack not a stupid question at all - yes there are shovels. When do you guys arrive and most likely to need them? Do you expect help from the build crew or covered by shit ninjas? If you need build crew assistance you'll need to speak to @Natacha Kromatik..

Nics

Nics August 3rd, 2021 20:37

Fantastic. Won't organise one then

DDL

Dan de Lion! August 5th, 2021 11:08

@Alina @Erin Jeavons-Fellows The idea is to have the shit ninja meeting wednesday 11.8 at 17h at the toilets by the Firestation.

Alina

Alina August 5th, 2021 11:13

Perfect thanks, I'll be there! Also is there a chance to get a tiny training for build? I'm arriving on saturday already and just wondered how to solve the shit until then? :D

DDL

Dan de Lion! August 6th, 2021 13:33

Hi Alina, I wont arrive until Wednesday, but Erez will be there for Build and he can show you how to use them. We don't expect thry will need much attention untill after everyone else gets there. I look forward to merting you on Wednesday :)