PROPOSAL [Decided] Handing out a phonenumber to contact First Aid directly.
Our external First Aid company made the offer to give us a phone number that will be reachable 24/7, to be handed out to all participants and to be used to contact them directly in case of an emergency.
It brings the benefit that participants can call First Aid directly (avoiding to involve outside authorities) without having to look for someone with a radio (i.e Rangers) or runnning across the whole site.
Please note that time is really important when it comes to real emergencies (i.e. Heart attacks, unconsiosness). Minutes can decide in between life, death and long term effects.
Proposer @Purzel he/him First Aid Lead
After reveiving enough feedback I´m deciding to go with #3.
I will hand out the number towards the Kieze through our Kiezelead and suggest that Kieze will diplay or store the number at a central location in the Kiez.
The Advice Process
Information gathered before posting
I brought up this offer in the last Korg meeting and received mixed feeback and various counter ideas.
People most affected
Site Lead Lead @CJ Yetman
Ranger Lead @Jessie @Cris
Gate Lead @Mareike
Newsletter @Nora Flora
Facebook communicorn ?
Kieze Lead @Erin Jeavons-Fellows
The Board @Bee @Alejandro Pereda @Veroca R. Sala @Mareike @Jan-Christian Kaspareit @Alex @Cris
Safety Protocol Realizer @Franzi
Our current ways of reporting an emergency is by finding someone with a radio or running to the First Aid Tent. The First Aid Tent will be located close to the Gate, an incident close to the former pirate kiez creates quite a long way and therefore longer time before sufficient help is provided.
A burner in panic is likely to just call 112 (the official emergency number) which creates a mess in many ways:
the Gate won't expect an arriving ambulance
the ambulance crew won't know where to go exactly
we end up having authorities on site
local paramedics are not likely to be experienced with any substance induced emergencies other than alcohol. (our own First Aid and Welfare is) Most locals don't speak any english.
Site lead/rangers/wellfare won´t be aware that something is happening and can´t initiate our own protocols
The Proposal Ideas so far + objections
Spread the number accross the whole event and all participants (via newsletter, Facebook and at the gate). Whoever wants to, can save the number in their phone.
Our principle is immediacy. Promoting the number could "enforce" that participants carry their cell phones around at all times, which could also lead to possible consent violations by taking pictures or videos.
Spread around burner phones (i.e. attached to poles) that have this number on speed dial.
We would need to get the phones + SIM cards and keep them charged and functioning as well as weather protected.
Hand out the number only to the Kieze Leads and promote the idea that emergencies happening within a Kiez can be reported via phone while emergencies outside a Kiez get reported over our former ways (i.e. radio or by foot).
Do not hand out the number and use our old ways of reporting.
It might take to long to report an emergency, which could lead to additional harm or death of a participant.
How would the proposal be implemented
Depends on the outcome.
Who would implement this proposal
I will drive this forward.
When would this proposal be implemented
I´d like to reach a decision until the 20.07.2021.
What would be the cost (time, money, effort, etc.) of this proposal
The company offers this without any additional cost, whether we need to buy phones or invest effort in promoting the number depends on the outcome.
CJ Yetman Fri 2 Jul 2021 1:56PM
I had excellent service all over the site at Spark this year. Previous years I had practically none. I recognize that it's service provider dependent, so ymmv.
Purzel Fri 2 Jul 2021 9:03AM
I'll make sure to let them know our ways and how to follow them 😉
I suppose it depends on your Provider, I had very little in the valleys and not bad on the Playa.
CJ Yetman Fri 2 Jul 2021 2:01PM
We might need to figure out what we want reported to us and what not. @CJ Yetman any Input?
If we do this this year for the first time, I'd suggest that we tell First Aid that they must alert the Site Lead of any/every call they get on that phone. If that gets out of hand, then maybe we'll reassess next year. My guess is that it won't cause too much trouble to get a few calls like "Site Lead this is First Aid, we're going to the lake to put a bandaid on someone." Sure, maybe a bit overkill, but I don't see a strong negative impact from reporting every call.
Purzel Fri 2 Jul 2021 2:17PM
How about "walk ins"? Maybe something like, they report every patient with unusual vital signs for those cases. That would include blood pressure, oxygen blood levels, heart rate, blood sugar that is either to high or to low.
Ale Sun 4 Jul 2021 7:28AM
Hi @Felix H , @Purzel is an experienced professional through his job as a firefighter and therefore has a lot of experience with the people inside ambulances and first responders on scene. He’s also in contact and has been working with the first aid service we‘re using at Kiez burn this year, who are also very experienced in handling festivals and events of similar nature. I‘m guessing you’re talking from your job in a hospital emergency room and I don’t want to invalidate your experiences and knowledge. Please keep in mind there are professionals involved here as well and the kiezburn Happens in a more rural area, where people might be more experienced with alcohol than drugs. I’d be curious about your solution and solution oriented thoughts concerning this proposal.
Cris Wed 30 Jun 2021 4:13PM
Rangers already carry a radio, what makes proposal #5 practically the same as in #4, imo
CJ Yetman Sun 4 Jul 2021 10:12AM
The information about the First Aid companies is here: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/FbTkiNw4/first-aid-
Please check your tone. It sounds rather insulting
Purzel Sun 4 Jul 2021 10:29AM
Hey @Felix H I'm the proposer and First Aid realizer for kb 2021.
I'm a Rettungssanitäter, being a fireman in a big city means that I am also working as a paramedic. I'm doing this since a couple of years and would say that I'm fairly experienced (would love to do my Notfallsanitäter soon).
As mentioned before, our first aid company offered this number to us. Given the nature of Kiezburn, we (the board and Korg) want to avoid to have official ambulances on site, if possible. That's why we would prefer if participants use this inoffical number instead of 112 in case of incidents.
I brought this offer up in the Korg meeting and since we didn't have a clear position, I wrote this proposal to gather thoughts from the community.
Our company is experienced in guarding electronic festivals and their staff is qualified as well as actively working as normal paramedics. They will provide 24/7 coverage with at least 3 sober people.
In incidents that they cant handle, we and they will be happy to collaborate with official emergency services, emergency guidelines for those incidents are already updated and will be communicated to everyone involved.
If you want to get involved in organising first aid, I'll be happy to collaborate, especially given your expertise.
If you have feedback or ideas to improve this proposal, please state them here clearly and in Detail.
As a community, we want to communicate in a supportive and constructive way, especially when voicing criticism towards fields that other people invest a lot of time and energy in.
Felix H Sun 4 Jul 2021 11:00AM
Lovely! This is a clear and a constructive response. Im willing to collaborate, of course. Criticism is part of our professional attitude though. I think, it is important to realise, how far is the next ER of the hospital facility next to KB and how fast the regular RTW and NEF could be there. And also the level of professionalism in this facilitiy (I personally had a terrifying experiences being a Notarzt on three festivals in 2019). I'm currently organising the First Aid on burners event in Denmark. I also would prefer to have the direct communication with you. Also might cover your medication if we get along. Looking forward
Veroca R. Sala Tue 13 Jul 2021 6:41AM
Yeah i guess so. Maybe @Purzel wants to do an update on this thread and resolve?
Purzel Thu 15 Jul 2021 6:18PM
I set the deadline to the 20. and currently waiting for that day, so far I would decide for #3 without relying on burner phone in addition.
This would be easy to implement as I only have to comunicate it to our Kieze lead.
CJ Yetman Wed 30 Jun 2021 9:32PM
Thanks for mentioning that @Bee! I strongly suggest that the first try should be to contact the Rangers and use our radios so that the whole process triggers as it should, but the phone is a good backup communication channel.
Purzel Thu 1 Jul 2021 4:38AM
That's my Personal favorite as well.
Thank you, I haven't thought of that angle, I'll implement an SOP with first aid, that they inform us as soon as a bigger incident is reported to them directly.
We might need to figure out what we want reported to us and what not. @CJ Yetman any Input?
Cris Thu 1 Jul 2021 5:50PM
Well, personal phones are not usually lying around in the Kiez, but rather in ppl's tents and maybe not charged, so still in #3 someone (from the Kiez) has to take care that there is a charged and available phone in the Kiez.
CJ Yetman Fri 2 Jul 2021 2:55PM
yea, agreed.... report...
1. "unusual" vital signs of walk-ins
2. report all calls on the phone
It will be good to assess the usefulness of the phone number if we track all calls at least for the first year.
CJ Yetman Sun 4 Jul 2021 9:22AM
What does it mean that the “idea of the number” “in the real life doesn’t work this way”?
CJ Yetman Sun 4 Jul 2021 9:44AM
Also, it says quite clearly in the first sentence of the proposal where the idea came from: "Our external First Aid company made the offer to give us a phone number that will be reachable 24/7"
Felix H Sun 4 Jul 2021 9:51AM
Well. What is the Name of the external professional First Aid, please? Is it DRK or some privately owned?. I actually work im Rettungsdienst as well and as a Prüfer bei Prüfungen der Rettungssanitäter. How many participants are this year on KB? Are there 24/7 presence of a sober Paramedic/Emergency doctor with a sufficient qualification and currently actively working in Emergency services?
Felix H Sun 4 Jul 2021 9:57AM
With all respect, but a fire fighter is not an emergency doctor or a paramedic who are actually provide the treatment
CJ Yetman Mon 5 Jul 2021 11:27AM
I have Blau, which I believe was/is a subsidiary of E-Plus which is now owned by Telefónica
Cris Mon 5 Jul 2021 11:43AM
When I mention "promoting", I know it's maybe a bit too much of a word, but also my English it's limited. What I mean is: a phone was never of any use in a burn (officially) This would be the first time I see there's something to important to do with it. And don't like it that much, tbh..
Bee Tue 6 Jul 2021 12:33AM
The sim cards need to be registered and linked to a person, who that person will be?
You can buy pre registered sim cards from phone shops around Karl Marx Strasse.
CJ Yetman Mon 12 Jul 2021 10:57PM
I think the path of least resistance is doing without. Plus it’s less stuff for you to worry about.
Valentin_Seehausen Tue 13 Jul 2021 10:21AM
Absolutely agree. Showing a number won't promote using or carrying a phone. I would actually do at least #1, and then maybe #3 additionally. When we have the number available anyways, I would highly encourage us to also communicate it to all participants (in the program). We could for example say something like "In case of emergency please don't call 112, but our Kiezburn Emergency Service on-site under 01234567890, or reach out to a Ranger, for faster and better service. Still carrying your phone is encouraged and taking videos or pictures without explicit consent is forbidden."
CJ Yetman Tue 13 Jul 2021 11:08AM
I think since there has been some resistance to this, and no one (especially me) has offered a really smart plan of how to address those concerns adequately, it's probably best that we take the path of least resistance and only ask Kieze/Kiez Leads to have an emergency phone available.
Additionally, I would suggest that the text be along the lines of...
If there's an emergency...
Try to take yourself or the person in need directly to First Aid or Welfare, whichever is most appropriate.
If that is not feasible, try to find a/the Rangers or Site Leads and ask them to help you. They can call First Aid or Welfare on their radios.
If that is not possible or the problem is super time sensitive, you can call First Aid directly on any mobile phone at +XX XXX XXXX XXXX, but be aware that mobile service in the area is spotty at some locations. Kieze have been advised to make an emergency phone available in their Kiez for this purpose.
Cris Thu 1 Jul 2021 10:41AM
I'm leaning towards #3 as well.
I'm super super skeptisch and fearsome about "promoting" burners to go around with phones (I would just ban phones at a burn, tbh 👿) and I reckon we, and some other burns, don't have this kind of system, but use their own burner structures for emergencies, which work out well. Maybe just because the perfect storm never happened, though. Anyway, I definitely get the time issue in case of emergencies, and it's good to have this kind of professional input and be prepared for the wooooooooooorst!
Other thing: it passes on the objection from #2 to the Kieze, though.
Thank you @Purzel for this initiative and the good summarized points :)
Purzel Thu 1 Jul 2021 12:14PM
We only need to provide phone for #2.
3# would rely on the personal phone's, they should be available in the Kiez anyway.
Purzel Thu 1 Jul 2021 7:30PM
That's valuable feedback, in my case my phone is always close to me and charged, even when im not using it much.
That leads to an interesting question. How far do we wanna go in the attempt of preparing for the worst while not overdoing it?
Veroca R. Sala Mon 12 Jul 2021 8:02PM
Hi. How is this going?? a week past and I haven't seen any confirmation of what I suggested down in the comments.
I am at this point very tight with timings. We are close to the event
Do you guys want me to prepare the phones-without-camera for the burner phones station? Yes/no?
Veroca R. Sala Mon 5 Jul 2021 9:54AM
I would go for option #3, making sure all Kieze are in the know and reserve a spot to have the phone charged and protected from the elements etc. Tagging @Erin Jeavons-Fellows to follow up on this proposal in case we move forward with the option #3.
Option #2 is interesting as well, considering we could have phones without a camera installed ( I know Mr. Galaxy @Sven Dudink could provide those phones (?). I personally volunteer to do the technical work of removing cameras of the devices.
Placement of Burner Phones: A combination of options #2 and #3: The burner phones could be placed somewhere near a Kiez to get power from and a Kiez member to make sure the phone is not flat. the Buner Phone station should be visible and reachable from the streets of Freiland and good signage required ( tagging @Ancka, signage lead to follow up).
A number of phones: How many phones would we need? I assume not every Kiez needs one.
The signal would affect the location of the burner phones meaning that the placement is to be confirmed during build and communicated just then? or maybe we can check the reception at the Freiland event on the 16h July so that we can place them on the map (the emergency Burner Phones).
We need to make a signal check with different providers regardless we go for option #1 or #2 Without knowing if we have reception I dont see the point of all this discussion. @Franzi which provider do you have? @CJ Yetman , and you? thanks
Linking this comment to the Freiland event now ( Freiland sommerfest https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/bNPEdgFm/freiland-sommerfest)
The sim cards need to be registered and linked to a person, who that person will be?
Felix H Sun 4 Jul 2021 6:47AM
Sorry, guys, I'm an experienced emergency physician (Notarzt, Facharzt für Innere Medizin) with over 20 years of experience. I don't know, where this idea of the number came from, but in the real life it doesn't work this way. Also the statement that the emergency services don't know, what to do in case of a substance abuse is just wrong. You should probably ask professionals before creating the procedure that is more likely going to cause nothing but a chaos.
With all respect
Mareike Sat 3 Jul 2021 11:27AM
Thanks for this proposal! I agree with Nr. 3: promote Number within Kieze, have it maybe also present at Welfare, Site lead station, Gate (even though they are already close to First Aid). But also make sure this does not replace looking for rangers/site lead/welfare first. (I would make a sign for the monkey kitchen that says something like "emergency? 1. find first aid/welfare 2. report to rangers/site leads 3. nobody close or serious emergency? call first aid 20837417823)
I also share @Cris concern about promoting the use of phones but do agree with @CJ Yetman that this will not be the main reason for people carrying phones during the burn. Maybe we should use this concern rather as inspiration for "consent posters" about carrying phones and taking pictures.
CJ Yetman Fri 2 Jul 2021 2:10PM
With respect to "promoting" burners to carry around their phones... I honestly don't believe this "promotes" carrying around phones, and honestly I would also be very opposed to doing this in the form of "Kiez Burn attendees: please bring your cell phone and keep it with you at all times in case you need to call First Aid!". But that's a far cry from what I imagine, somewhere subtly saying "This year, First Aid will also be reachable by a phone number if you cannot find a Ranger or easily get to the First Aid tent on your own: 212.867.5309"
I do believe that many people already carry their phones with them during the event, myself included. I also agree that it's a concern if people are taking video and pictures of people without their consent. However, setting this up as First Aid having a phone number is somehow promoting this bad behavior feels like a strawman argument to me.
Franzi Fri 2 Jul 2021 7:54AM
and, I think it should be clear to first aid, that if they get called directly they need to fill out the incident form and report to the site lead asap :)
Franzi Fri 2 Jul 2021 7:53AM
I think either way is fine for me... Just to be clear there is no phone reception on site. I know @Professor Kaos mentioned a couple of times network is better this time... but its not. I had literally zero network :)
[deactivated account] Thu 1 Jul 2021 12:06PM
I am for idea 3, as well, yet also perhaps the nr. can be placed on a white board/paper at each camp [or someone`s chest ;)] or prominently, so that in an emergency anyone knows to call it and can call it. Also, perhaps info such as this, as well as other discussed info (1st rangers, then phone nr., no swimming/habitat preservation), can also be mentioned during greeting.
Bee Wed 30 Jun 2021 9:24PM
I am for idea 3. In the scenario someone is in a critical emergency situation especially far from 1st aid I can imagine it being better than someone could run to find the nearest ranger/site lead/person with a radio while another runs to a Kieze to call 1st aid. In this scenario Ranger/Site Lead & 1st aid may arrive at the same time & will know to switch to emergency channels.
There are very few cases where the protocol should/would (I hope) be skipped, but I think it is important that the phone call doesn't replace the act of getting someone Kiez Burn responsible to the scene as quick as possible also.
Ale Wed 30 Jun 2021 4:12PM
Thank you for this detailed proposal and for Caring! ❤️
I really like the idea of giving the number to the Kieze leads. Everyone, having an emergency outside of a Kiez, can run up to the one nearest Kiez to them and get help.
The Kieze leads could also think about hanging the number on a piece of paper in their kitchens, so everyone knows. And inside a Kieze at least one phone should be available :)
A) we wouldn’t advertise people carrying their phones around (and possibly taking pictures)
B) we’d support reaching out to camps and other people in case of emergency
C) number is available for everyone.
Daniel Klein Wed 30 Jun 2021 4:09PM
Idea #5 : Rangers also carry around phones while on shift and are briefed on using this number for medical emergencies which occur at over some distance from the Medic's tent.
In my humble opinion- A burn should be structured/organized in such a way that participants generally have an easier time reaching a ranger than reaching their own phones.
Ale · Sun 4 Jul 2021 10:00AM
I don’t want to judge Felix, but I get the feeling you’re in a really critical position and it might be my projection but it feels as if you’re more in a „against“ position than one that feels „collaborative“ and „let’s create something good together.“ :)
If I’ve gotten the wrong feeling here, please excuse me. If you’d like to actively contribute and collaborate I’m sure the people involved would gladly include you in their planning group, but this is not what this thread is about right now. I haven’t heard a solution or a positive contribution to the proposal at hand at the moment.