talk.kiezburn.org
January 29th, 2020 12:13

"Borderland___"

Benjamin Langholz
Benjamin Langholz Public Seen by 146

I haven't been to so many KiezBurn meetings. But there is one thing has stuck out to me in the few I have been too. The world "Borderland". Usually followed with "did ___". Or started with "The way that...".

I'm really curious where this fixation on Borderland came from and why it's being used so heavily as an example for the decision-making process of KiezBurn.

Benjamin Langholz

Benjamin Langholz January 29th, 2020 12:14

There are so many amazing regionals around the world to look to for example, but what makes them so wonderful is they are different. Different in the culture they bring to the event, but also different in how they organize themselves.

So what would KiezBurn do?

DU

[deactivated account] January 29th, 2020 15:54

I agree that there are more examples to look at and to learn from than just The Borderland

Paul aka Khromo

Paul aka Khromo January 29th, 2020 16:15

In answer to your question, it's because Borderland has been going a few years longer and is a bit bigger than Kiezburn and is probably the mosrt similar burn to KB in terms of environment, locality and experiences. A lot of the problems and scenarious that KB comes up against are scenarios that have been experienced by Borderland, so it makes sense to study and learn form their methods.

DU

[deactivated account] February 1st, 2020 00:02

To answer your question @Benjamin Langholz -

Yes we are replicating a lot from the Borderland as we are using the tools they created - Talk, Dreams, Realities. These were built by BL for their own purposes, supporting their radically anarchist (my personal adjective - not theirs) methods. Being the nice burners that they are, they have shared them with us (please correct me @waldo if this is not true)

My radical guess is that key members of KB have been exploring radical do-ocracy and got really inspired by BL.

And rightly so. I personally think that BL are really pushing the envelope and are the most progressive burn when it comes to radical community empowerment. They do see this as a big experiment in communal co-creation, hence pretty radical approach(es) through pretty radical tools geared in that particular direction. I see this a political experiment as well - as in, what is democracy 2.0?

As I understand myself is that the general ethos is also carried over (radical do-ocracy is pretty much a BL thing)

More here: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/Fmw8WQTO/proposal-no-board-decisions-in-2021

Benjamin Langholz

Benjamin Langholz February 1st, 2020 02:21

It always makes me uncomfortable when one organizing group heavily references another. Shifts responsibility of actions onto an non-present party and allows for easy validation of action without real proof of validity.

It also makes me feel I’m contributing to the wrong group. If group B is going to mimic group A I’d much rather contribute my effort to group A. Then I’ll get to influence both groups A and B.

DU

[deactivated account] February 1st, 2020 05:28

I feel there is a kind of obsession with KiezBurners and the borderlands. I mean, there are some regionals, if not the main burn, which have been going on for a lot longer that the BL with a much bigger burden to carry in terms of size and people, therefore organization.

KB do-ocracy means anyone, I mean anyone, can register and vote even if they have never been to KB or any other burn. Anyone can shift the needle of the scale if they get people to sign in and vote, as opposed to a core team of decision makers dedicated to a noble purpose for the good of all. Just some food for thoughts

DU

[deactivated account] February 1st, 2020 23:34

Hey @Benjamin Langholz - I do not think I wrote something that prompts or validates your comment. My comment is a radical guess from observation. My personal trouble with the thing is that I do not see/feel/hear a clear vision of what KB really is/wants to be. Perhaps there is space to question that rather than critique a supposed reality?

This said, I do recommend to check out BL. I personally get very inspired there. Also, pretty badass art happening there - so far. I do gather from our exchanges so far that you might not be a big fan of their ways. I might be wrong. Let's stay open and keep asking questions. The best way to decide is to try ;)

DU

[deactivated account] February 1st, 2020 23:39

Dear @Andrea Paracucchi I read your post as quite emotional/reactionary. I would be happy to understand you better, but through facts. What do you mean with "I feel there is a kind of obsession with KiezBurners and the borderlands" - how does this manifest for you? (I must add a caveat that I haven't been to any of the meetings regarding KB 2020, so Talk (here) is my only source of news.

DU

[deactivated account] February 2nd, 2020 00:40

@Alina, also known as Milda! My post is neither emotional now reactionary. Just objective. We have a participatory event where decision can be taken by people who might, or might not have been or be part of KiezBurn, just by registering on talks. The amount of threads to follow and activity is great online, but the participation at meetings is of about 20ppl on average.
I believe there should be people chosen by KiezBurnes at kiezburn or at a participatory event at least linked to Kiezburn, whom are then stirring the wheel with a vision. @Benjamin Langholz just is a good example of what I mean for what concerns the arts.
Big burns go as far as having a full time organization which decide who to give money to for art, how much ticket cost, and other important decisions that are done for the whole community with a clear vision from people really involved. And again this is what I believe to be efficient if done for a greater good with a clear vision.

Jeff Spirlock

Jeff Spirlock February 2nd, 2020 09:51

Sounds like that system could be easily influenced by people with money and connections if anyone can cast their vote.

DU

[deactivated account] February 2nd, 2020 10:09

Instead our actual system can be influenced by people who don’t know what a Burn is, maybe have never been to one. You have a proposal, out in on talks to vote. Then invite 150 friends of yours to join and vote and BOOM, you are the winner.

Benjamin Langholz

Benjamin Langholz February 2nd, 2020 10:53

I believe in the power of individuals with vision and enabling those who have the energy to contribute to an initiative.

I'm also open to experimenting with other systems and inventing our own. It just needs to be clearly stated and has some desire for efficiency and ownership.

Referencing an invented system of another group seems dangerous as it distances anyone from ownership of the system and we are hopping into something that our community did not arrive at and does not fully understand.

DU

[deactivated account] February 2nd, 2020 20:15

@Benjamin Langholz and @Andrea Paracucchi

Please do not get me wrong - I am not sure where we are as an organisation - and what the best model is.

My previous response (way up) was a (informed) guess to answer to @Benjamin Langholz 's question - "why Borderland".

I do not say what is right or what is wrong. I am not a fan of opaque-style leadership at BM nor do I think our community is ready for radical do-ocracy.

I do think that clarity is lacking in terms of who makes decisions at BL - and how. Hence the overall confusion. Please see some radical confusion about decision-making at KB here: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/I2bGpV09/comment/4374

What do we do now? I do hear there is A Board meeting on Tuesday (?) - perhaps we shall know more?

walto

walto February 3rd, 2020 14:54

I share your concerns @Andrea Paracucchi. To clarify: the purpose of voting is not to get a decision, but to collect advice.

There is also the effort in making an event coordination team, which will fill the role of event coordinators. See here: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/XjspCbOw/shaping-the-event-coordination-team

walto

walto February 3rd, 2020 15:10

We have been a bit overwhelmed with the amount of stuff coming up, so much earlier than in previous years.

To answer your question @Benjamin Langholz, Borderland has been an amazing inspiration, but not the only one. Other burns, philosophies & methods, have had an equally huge impact. Where Borderland has been a big inspiration, was how to facilitate decentralized decision making & event organization. This was implemented last year and helped us a lot in having an amazing KB19.

Let's see how KB2020 shapes up and what inspiration flies our way this year. One observation I would make, is that I feel Kiez Burn tries to find a middle ground between a centralized burn like Nowhere (e.g. this thread), and a decentralized burn like Borderland. In addition, Kiez Burn relies heavily on meetings and talking it out.

As part of my to-dos, I have, to write down in Talk how we have been been working from the start till now. This has been presented multiple times during general assemblies and some lead meetings. I hope that will shed more light for those people new to the Kiez Burn event organization

Jeff Spirlock

Jeff Spirlock February 28th, 2020 09:58

I considered spending a little money to hire a team to sway the vote, just as an experiment.