Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:13PM


BL Benjamin Langholz Public Seen by 153

I haven't been to so many KiezBurn meetings. But there is one thing has stuck out to me in the few I have been too. The world "Borderland". Usually followed with "did ___". Or started with "The way that...".

I'm really curious where this fixation on Borderland came from and why it's being used so heavily as an example for the decision-making process of KiezBurn.


Benjamin Langholz Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:14PM

There are so many amazing regionals around the world to look to for example, but what makes them so wonderful is they are different. Different in the culture they bring to the event, but also different in how they organize themselves.

So what would KiezBurn do?


Andrea Paracucchi Wed 29 Jan 2020 3:54PM

I agree that there are more examples to look at and to learn from than just The Borderland


Paul aka Khromo Wed 29 Jan 2020 4:15PM

In answer to your question, it's because Borderland has been going a few years longer and is a bit bigger than Kiezburn and is probably the mosrt similar burn to KB in terms of environment, locality and experiences. A lot of the problems and scenarious that KB comes up against are scenarios that have been experienced by Borderland, so it makes sense to study and learn form their methods.


Alina, also known as Universe Sat 1 Feb 2020 12:02AM

To answer your question @Benjamin Langholz -

Yes we are replicating a lot from the Borderland as we are using the tools they created - Talk, Dreams, Realities. These were built by BL for their own purposes, supporting their radically anarchist (my personal adjective - not theirs) methods. Being the nice burners that they are, they have shared them with us (please correct me @waldo if this is not true)

My radical guess is that key members of KB have been exploring radical do-ocracy and got really inspired by BL.

And rightly so. I personally think that BL are really pushing the envelope and are the most progressive burn when it comes to radical community empowerment. They do see this as a big experiment in communal co-creation, hence pretty radical approach(es) through pretty radical tools geared in that particular direction. I see this a political experiment as well - as in, what is democracy 2.0?

As I understand myself is that the general ethos is also carried over (radical do-ocracy is pretty much a BL thing)

More here:


Benjamin Langholz Sat 1 Feb 2020 2:21AM

It always makes me uncomfortable when one organizing group heavily references another. Shifts responsibility of actions onto an non-present party and allows for easy validation of action without real proof of validity.

It also makes me feel I’m contributing to the wrong group. If group B is going to mimic group A I’d much rather contribute my effort to group A. Then I’ll get to influence both groups A and B.


Andrea Paracucchi Sat 1 Feb 2020 5:28AM

I feel there is a kind of obsession with KiezBurners and the borderlands. I mean, there are some regionals, if not the main burn, which have been going on for a lot longer that the BL with a much bigger burden to carry in terms of size and people, therefore organization.

KB do-ocracy means anyone, I mean anyone, can register and vote even if they have never been to KB or any other burn. Anyone can shift the needle of the scale if they get people to sign in and vote, as opposed to a core team of decision makers dedicated to a noble purpose for the good of all. Just some food for thoughts


Andrea Paracucchi Sun 2 Feb 2020 12:40AM

@Alina, also known as Milda! My post is neither emotional now reactionary. Just objective. We have a participatory event where decision can be taken by people who might, or might not have been or be part of KiezBurn, just by registering on talks. The amount of threads to follow and activity is great online, but the participation at meetings is of about 20ppl on average.
I believe there should be people chosen by KiezBurnes at kiezburn or at a participatory event at least linked to Kiezburn, whom are then stirring the wheel with a vision. @Benjamin Langholz just is a good example of what I mean for what concerns the arts.
Big burns go as far as having a full time organization which decide who to give money to for art, how much ticket cost, and other important decisions that are done for the whole community with a clear vision from people really involved. And again this is what I believe to be efficient if done for a greater good with a clear vision.


Alina, also known as Universe Sun 2 Feb 2020 8:15PM

@Benjamin Langholz and @Andrea Paracucchi

Please do not get me wrong - I am not sure where we are as an organisation - and what the best model is.

My previous response (way up) was a (informed) guess to answer to @Benjamin Langholz 's question - "why Borderland".

I do not say what is right or what is wrong. I am not a fan of opaque-style leadership at BM nor do I think our community is ready for radical do-ocracy.

I do think that clarity is lacking in terms of who makes decisions at BL - and how. Hence the overall confusion. Please see some radical confusion about decision-making at KB here:

What do we do now? I do hear there is A Board meeting on Tuesday (?) - perhaps we shall know more?


walto Mon 3 Feb 2020 3:10PM

We have been a bit overwhelmed with the amount of stuff coming up, so much earlier than in previous years.

To answer your question @Benjamin Langholz, Borderland has been an amazing inspiration, but not the only one. Other burns, philosophies & methods, have had an equally huge impact. Where Borderland has been a big inspiration, was how to facilitate decentralized decision making & event organization. This was implemented last year and helped us a lot in having an amazing KB19.

Let's see how KB2020 shapes up and what inspiration flies our way this year. One observation I would make, is that I feel Kiez Burn tries to find a middle ground between a centralized burn like Nowhere (e.g. this thread), and a decentralized burn like Borderland. In addition, Kiez Burn relies heavily on meetings and talking it out.

As part of my to-dos, I have, to write down in Talk how we have been been working from the start till now. This has been presented multiple times during general assemblies and some lead meetings. I hope that will shed more light for those people new to the Kiez Burn event organization


Benjamin Langholz Sun 2 Feb 2020 10:53AM

I believe in the power of individuals with vision and enabling those who have the energy to contribute to an initiative.

I'm also open to experimenting with other systems and inventing our own. It just needs to be clearly stated and has some desire for efficiency and ownership.

Referencing an invented system of another group seems dangerous as it distances anyone from ownership of the system and we are hopping into something that our community did not arrive at and does not fully understand.

Load More