We would like to get some Strohballen (see pic) for our Kiez to use for seating and to even out some areas. We will pick it up again, but a trace is inevitable, but it's natural — OK or not OK?

Just to clarify, if I vote AGREE I am voting that straw and woodchips are not MOOP and are okay? "not LNT" is a bit confusing to me as that sounds not okay.

clearer like this?

Yes, thanks!

FYI those are shavings; not chips. totes ok with shavings if they come from an untreated source

good point!

@andreasnoack some questions that have been coming up where I do not know the answer to:
* where can we get rid of grey water that did not use biodegradeable soap?
* What do we do with green waste? Are there going to be compost holes where we can put the green waste?

yes there is gonna be compost on site.
grey water hast to leave the site as there is no connection to the sewage system. One possibility would be the shower container tanks though - but for right now we do not have a final proposal about the use of the showers and grey water containers.

cool! So happy there will be compost holes! Thanks. Do we know already where these would be? If you would want to put these compost holes on the map in the workshop booklet, then it would need to be on the google maps by 30/05.

will do thx - i thought it was the 31.05

@andreasnoack Please give Alejandro a bit of time to redraw the map. The map is being done now-ish and if you send it on 31/05, it does not mean the map immediately is ready.

we are gonna set up a organic waste (only uncooked food scrapes) bin close to kiez kitchen. should i put a final location on the map? you can put it also somewhere close to Kiez Kitchen at the road - it will be a 50literish bin. I will empty it daily to the final location of the compost area.

that would be perfect if you could do it. Thanks!

So one of the major argument against biodegradable glitter seems to be that it cannot be distinguished from non-biodegradable glitter. Do we also apply that standard to biodegradable soap? Who's in charge of verifying that people's soap is biodegradable, and actually, how would one do that anyway? What about other banned items? Bug repellant? Sun screen? How do we verify which ones are ok and which are not? Or do we simply tell people what they can and can not bring and rely on /trust them to comply?

I would argue for the latter, since I guess we do not plan to do any more policing/autoritarian control than absolutely necessary and we should generelly start with the trust that people will follow rules and in general behave according to the 10 principles, unless we clearly discover something different.

The main difference between glitter and the other items you mentioned, is that glitter is completely optional to have fun, but soap, bug repellent and sun screen not really.

what about wood chips and straw?

straw/woodchips may become necessary when the terrain is too wet. It may be also considered a "natural part" of the environment in the area where the event is located.

who/how/when is the decision made about whether it's classified as necessary or not?

If we welcome biodegradable glitter we will put it in the greeter manual to ask (maybe already glittered arrivals) wether or not they have glitter with them, if it is biodegradable and maybe point them to glitter stations where biodegradable glitter is available. No glitter in the lake, please don't just wash your glitter off in nature. And so forth, and so on.
But I'd rather let them simply say 'See we would like people not wearing glitter at all, this is one example for the implementation of LNT.'

People still need soap, bug spray and sunscreen. We can ask them to think about the environment and buy only biodegradable, natural (DEET-free) products, but there won't be a cosmetics police. Just like we ask them to refrain from bringing glitter but there won't be a glitter police. It's about education and what we tell people.

The point is: why do we say "don't bring non-bio soap, do bring bio soap, we won't police it", then "we're LNT, but actually we will leave a trace", then "we're all about not leaving MOOP, but if people wanna bring straw and woodchips to sit on or make a nice floor and we leave some of it behind, that's ok because it's 'natural'", then "don't bring bio glitter even though/if it's 'natural, because we can't tell which is which, so we ban all of it'"

I don't really give a shit about glitter... I don't use it or wear it. I do give a shit about having inconsistent messages and arguments. That spills over into everything, once you've trained people that if you make a lot of noise, make a poll and get your friends to vote, keep complaining and making arguments and eventually you'll get what you want, then that's the m.o. for every issue.

Glitter that is biodegradable is still not natural. Straw can be found in nature, glitter is man-made, even if made from natural ingredients. We are not sending mixed messages at all, I don't agree with your point. We want to agree on shared rules as a community based on our values and principles. We don't want to be authoritarian and forcefully impose these rules. We trust the people in our community will follow if the rules and reasonable and agreed upon. This right now is the process of agreeing on the rules. Once they are set, we will educate and inform to the best of our ability. At least, that's how I understand the process -- do you want to suggest a better way to do this?

Sorry CJ, I think you are mixing up three very different issues here:
1) a value-based policy (LNT) and its interpretation regarding "special cases"
2) communication about our value-based policy
3) styles of policing / sanctioning our common values

In terms of 1, I think we are having a very productive discussion here about how to deal with "special cases" like biodegradable glitter, straw a.s.o. I think this can be well settled in a final step by help of a majority vote if all arguments are on the table
In terms of 2, I think it is pretty easy to communicate what we don't want people to do. We simply write in the guide and say at the gate: please don't do x, please don't bring y, followed by reference to the abstract values behind the decision, as suggested by Saskia . I also see no necessity at all to communicate explicitly to Kiezburn visitors about the existence or the type of sanctions we plan to execute or not when people "misbehave".
In terms of 3, I would like to mention that the existence or strength of sanctions / penalties has no direct guaranteed impact on people's behaviour in whatever present or historic community you look at. Rather, it enforces strategies of hiding the sanctioned behaviour and prevents any form of civil progress through mutual understanding. Of course, there are different philosophical takes on this issue, and one community may decide to invent certain penalties for certain things, if all else fails. But to say a rule would be useless/Incoherent if we do not introduce and communicate policing measures to enforce it is in my view not in accordance with an open civic community and several burner principles.

Right, so why be authoritarian on glitter, not straw or soap? Why say some MOOP is ok, other MOOP not ok? Some "bio" stuff is acceptable, other "bio" stuff is not acceptable?

I don't think those voting against glitter want it to be enforced in an authoritarian way. We just want to agree on this as a rule that people self-enforce, and we trust them to do so. Just like we trust them to shower off sunscreen before going into the lake and to use biodegradable soap when washing. Will this guarantee 100% compliance with the rule? Of course not! But these are the community standards we want to communicate.

I guess I'm mostly concerned about #2. How are we going to successfully communicate these inconsistencies to people? "We're LNT, but we're going to leave a trace", "MOOP is no good, but there was a poll on Loomio about straw, so you can MOOP with that", "Community decided that 'bio' stuff is ok, but there's skepticism about the 'bio'-ness of some things, so we don't want that."

as far as I remember the outset of the "straw discussion", Henrik proposed actually that the straw will be/ has to be removed by the Kiezes after the burn in terms of LNT. However, it will hardly be preventable that some single straws will stay there due to wind and so on. In a similiar way as straw from adjactent corn fields can and will fly over to the Kiezburn venue. And there is your answer, why this proposed procedure would not be inconsistent with LNT, different to allowing glitter of whatever form: Glitter would leave traces clearly not belonging at that place, where we are only guests.

I think it would be much easier to smear some glitter paste on my forehead for a day, then wipe it off with a wet towel that I take home with me, and have no one find a MOOP-ed piece of glitter... than to leave a bail of hay out for people to sit on all week and not having anyone find a stray piece of straw somewhere. One seems a lot MOOP-ier to me. Like I said, I don't really mess with glitter, so maybe it's worse than I imagine. But from one person's perspective, that's how I would see it.

I will say... I'm pretty happy this discussion is on Loomio, not in some private thread on Slack ;-)

Yes, as said, there can be different valid opinions on how to interpret LNT in such special cases, so it is good that we have a public discussion on this issue here.

CJ, I can see your point. Here is a little proposal in terms of communication:

Why make it an all-or-nothing thing? Why not have a sliding 'scale' of how much we would like people to leave certain things at home and communicate AND explain it?
I think some people forget at times that there is a bunch of people literally picking EVERY LITTLE PIECE of Moop. And that they have to take their own MOOP with them. And because of that ....

I could imagine a little 'standout' - Box discussing the matter of ambivalent MOOPishness with the example of biodegradable glitter. Heck if I had ANY skill in doing that I'd love to do a little funny infographic which could be used for facebook as well or as a print out at the gate.

"We ultimatley decided that we won't be authoritarian assholes. But we decided to inform you about the consequences of bringing glitter to the festival. (...) " and then somehow present the arguments that have been named here in a way so people can ultimatley decide to self-express without glitter just because they are cool and stuff?

I would be willing to invest some time in it as well, if that's what it needs for it to be in the survival guide.

A bit following Saskia's line, I would like to mention (or rather shamelessly advertize) that there will be a public panel discussion at Kiezburn (planned for Saturday 16-18h at Just Being), inter alia on matters of how to improve the ecological sustainability of burns. I think the glitter vs. straw issue might be a nice example for the difficulties one might face during practical organisation of a Burn in spite of all having (in principle) the same aims and values in mind. Sometimes, there is no clear-cut perfect answer to these challenges, I guess.

Thanks Stefan, that's the key point in my opinion! It should be much more about ecological sustainability and not about leaving no trace. That is the much more and even most important thing!

ecological sustainability is not explicitly part of our Eleven Principles, LNT and MOOP are.... if that doesn't mesh with the general consensus, we should really address that

One last comment/clarification before I sign off for a while. My point was, I strongly advise that if bio-glitter is banned that the justification given is something along the lines of "when using glitter, bio or otherwise, it is practically impossible to prevent some of it ending up as MOOP". If the justification given is "bio-glitter is indistinguishable from non-bio-glitter, therefore we can not allow it", it implies that bio-glitter would be acceptable if it were easily distinguishable from non-bio-glitter, which generally does not seem to be the case.

The deadline is May 31, yes.

Jaina

I have a general question on the definition of MOOP and LNT. If you drop a flower leaf in the nature in winter it could be interpreted as MOOP since in winter there are no flower leafs in the nature. So I would propose to include in the definition of MOOP that if it's matter will degrade within a certain period of time to substances like nutrients, CO2, oxigen or water than it is part of the natural cycles of every matter and in my opinion it is no MOOP in this case. Also, the amount of this matter's degradation products has to be compared to the usual amount of that products at this place/ecosystem to judge if that matter has to be classified as MOOP or not. As I have commented earlier, the dose makes the poison. For instance, a much higher amount of e.g. nutrients than usually being present at a place or better to say ecosystem should be interpreted as MOOP in my opinion.
In contrast, the definition of LNT sounds much more strict and is maybe not applicable at places other than the desert. As it has been discussed before it could also mean that you has to leave all the vegetation untouched but you will kill some of it simply by sitting on it ...

I am with you here on the mixture of:
"Does it degrade and how fast?" + "Could it be mistaken for a thing that is not MOOP and belongs here" + "dose makes poison"

A real deMOOP example: When deMOOPING and finding a single straw on a rather dry and already 'used' patch of land, I will usually just let it sit there. It's straw. I don't pick up apple seeds as well, because yea, probably someone spit them there but heck - it is an apple seed. Banana peels are something else, tho. And also, if I see a PILE of straw, obviously a MOOP of a forgotten seating opportunity, I will of course not spread the straws because they decompose but deMOOP the pile and its' surrounding, making and extra effort to pick up straws in proximity and straw-trails and and and...

Back to glitter in this case:
If I see glitter I have no opportunity to decide wether or not the glitter is biodegradable. I consider the ecological impact of glitter as highly problematic. The risks of not picking it up and it being conventional glitter is just too high. My trust in our guests is high, but convenience and fun is more key to some people. Humans be humans.
So I WILL pick the glitter up. I just fucking will. Other deMOOPers might treat that differently.

So there is this difference between glitter and straw. And it is neither fitting the definition of ecological impact or LNT Moop.

Using glitter, even biodegradable one, shifts the responsibility of paying a greater cost for trying to act according to the principle to the people deMOOPING.

Using straw and taking care of deMOOPing 99,9999 % of it will not shift this burden to LNT volunteers.

IDK. Civic responsibility might be the word here. And we're just talking communications here, not imposing any kind of 'law' that kicks out people using glitter.

Absolutely! Just Being is hosting a workshop on Friday on the definitions of "MOOP" and "LNT" at 16h on the Saturday on this topic. The proposal would be "leave a better trace" or so :)

Since it looks like the proposal around glitter is split in half largely, what does this mean for us?

Proposals do not mean that the decision is automatically accepted as democratic outcome, therefore to be done as such. Although the volunteers who will execute that policy, need to take community feedback into consideration, they have a very large say in if and how this will be done in the end.

Some big questions that were not answered thusfar are:
1. how will MOOP sweeps deal with glitter on the ground? Since there is no way to distinguish between the two, nor can we leave glitter on the ground (we do not know if it is biodegradeable when on the ground), how will we deal with that? From the people who voted yes on this poll, what is your proposal on the matter? How do you plan to pick up all the little glitters from the ground?
2. How would the communication around "biodegreadable glitter=OK" but "non-biodegradeable glitter=BAD" happen? What kind of signs should there be, and how should this be communicated on the different platforms (survival guide, website, facebook,...)
3. What exactly is biodegradeable? Which label does it need to have to qualify? There is a lot of bullshit "bio" glitter out there...

This isn't a voteable topic. We have an LNT lead. Andreas will be working very hard during the whole event to raise awareness around LNT, will be running community moop sweeps etc..
1. We will have to pick up all the glitter. all of it. it's not of the environment bio or not. People who bring glitter Bio or otherwise, still shed it. Will those people be bending over for hours cleaning their leaked biocrap up? I have my doubts (so prove me wrong glitter-ponies)
2. we will have to say no to glitter and explain that glitter is micro plastic, and this is impossible to clean from the site. We can't go crazy on policing and no-one will get yelled at - this isn't America, but we need to communicate that all glitter is moop until all glitter is bio. THEN we can have a constructive conversation about next steps.
3. There is an extremely exacting standard in Germany as to what is bio degradable in regards to plastic - find it here : http://biokunststofftool.aoel.org/index.php?id=23
This tool can be stuck through google translate. Take the tool down to cellulose and have a look at the recommendations.

It seems that we won't find a common solution for this year. So l would propose to ban any type of glitter for this year, then discuss this topic at the workshop at JustBeing and find out if bio-based glitter could be allowed next year under certain conditions (e.g. communication).

Reading the initial post it looks like camps do NOT have to take care of a toilet. Is that true?

I would like to know this as well. Also, are there lights at the toilets at night?

Yes kieze do not have to do anything about the toilettes but filling them with human waste and only human waste. And there will be no lights in the toiletts during night - total self reliance

I think I saw a post somewhere on Loomio or Slack or whatever listing local (to the site) trash/rubbish drop off points (like the equivalent of BSR). I can't find it now :(.

Has anyone already researched this information about where we can dump or trash? And if so, where could I find it?

https://kiezburn.org/home/faq/

Thanks for massaging this Area @andreasnoack
You Legend

Note: Nordmann Getränke does NOT take all you deposit/Pfand away! Only the delivered bottles. You would have needed to order extra empty boxes to return bottles on top. Take care of your deposit and bring it back to the next supermarket :)