talk.kiezburn.org
Fri 3 Feb 2023 4:29PM

(CLOSED) Let's agree on a date for Kiez Burn 2023!

C Cairn (Clément) Public Seen by 55

This advice process is about deciding the date for Kiez Burn 2023. While a preferred date has been discussed by most current Realizers during the kickoff weekend, more information needs to be gather to ensure we make the best decision possible.

UPDATE: DECISION HAS BEEN REACHED, WE HAVE DATES!

09 - 13 August

Thank you for your patience on this.

The main points that have impacted the decision:

  • Wish to not impede with other European Burns

  • Ensuring that the dates do not interfere with Rebirth, which has agreed to change their dates, as it doesn't represent a major hassle

  • Availability of the majority of Realisers

PS: Found this process too long and the restrictions too many? Join the scouting team, and help us find a new place where our doocracy can run wild and free! :)

Proposer

@Cairn (Clément)

Proposer’s role:

Boardie.

I am writing this Advice Process on behalf of all the participants of the Kickoff Weekend 2023. This group of people includes most of the realizers for Kiezburn 2023, a lot of realizers from previous years, and some Boardies. 

Information gathered before posting

This proposal was discussed with the board, as well as during the Kickoff Weekend, on 28.01.2023.

People/roles most affected by this proposal

@Everyone

@Boardies

@Tickets

People/roles with the most knowledge and experience relevant to this proposal:

Participants of the Kickoff Weekend 

Realizers

The proposal

Background

Finding a date is hard. Events near and far, some being Burns, some big festivals, some KB-community-led. How do we ponder the different factors and choose a date for KB 23?

A date was discussed and agreed upon during the Kick Off weekend (see table below).

However, voices have quickly raised, bringing arguments that may not have been taken into account then.

All dates possible have cons, this is about agreeing on the least bad option.

The proposal

Let’s map all pros and cons for each date, and try to come up with a way to make the most beneficial decision for everyone involved.

Here's a table with the different events known to be attended by an unknown amount of KB members, along with the potential dates.

I will update it as needed.

Monday

Tuesday

Wednesday

Thursday

Friday

Saturday

Sunday

02.07

Nowhere

Nowhere

Nowhere

Nowhere

Nowhere

Nowhere

08.07

Nowhere

09.07

16.07

17.07

Boom

Boom

Boom

23.07

Boom

24.07

Boom

Borderland

Boom

Borderland

Boom

Borderland

Boom

Borderland

Borderland

Borderland

30.07

Borderland

31.07

Kiez Burn Build?

06.08

Kiez Burn Build?

07.08

Kiez Burn Build?

Rebirth Burn

Kiez Burn Build?

Rebirth Burn

Kiez Burn?

Rebirth Burn

Kiez Burn?

Rebirth Burn

Kiez Burn?

Rebirth Burn

Kiez Burn?

13.08

Rebirth Burn

Kiez Burn?

14.08

Roztoc

Roztoc

Roztoc

20.08

Roztoc

21.08

Roztoc

Phoenix Fire Convention

Phoenix Fire Convention

Phoenix Fire Convention

27.08

Burning Man

Phoenix Fire Convention

28.08

Burning Man

Burning Man

Burning Man

Burning Man

Burning Man

Burning Man

03.09

Burning Man

Burn

Festival/Convention

Community organised event

What do we want to take into account in deciding a date?

  • Freiland's restrictions. Weekend of 15.07 is first Burn weekend possible. Non negotiable. (So build from 07.07)

  • Availability of current Realisers. Most were present during Kick off weekend, but not all.

  • Sustainability. Decision has been made during Kick Off to put Sustainability at the core of how we work together and create Kiez Burn. Should we give the same importance to far away events, as this can be considered a facilitation of a non sustainable practice? This concerns Burning Man mainly, but also Nowhere/Borderlands

  • Homeburns. The dates agreed on at Kick Off overlap Rebirth (aka Funeral). Assumption was made that moving this event would be less trouble for the 100 people involved than it would be for 1000 people KB to find other dates. However this has not been communicated with the organisers beforehand (As organiser of the Kick Off, I'd like to apologise for that, that's just shitty), nor confirmed with them

  • Which other events are Realisers actually intending on attending? See the poll in comments

How would the proposal be implemented

  1. Gathering of advice & inputs from Realizers, impacted peeps, and community (until 17.02)

  2. If the proposed date (09-13.08) is clearly the best choice, validate & confirm with Freiland.

  3. If outcome is uncertain, a vote will be opened, for one week, before a decision is taken

Who would implement this proposal

All of us?

I’m driving this AP, but the implementation of the event and decision communication falls on Realisers, Site Liaison, Communicors.

When would this proposal be implemented

Best case by 17.02, worst a week later.

What would be the cost (time, money, effort, etc.) of this proposal

Time/effort: Gathering advice (not opinions or wishes), and trying to find the least inconvenient dates.

What are the advantages of this proposal (relative to the current situation and/or counter-proposals)

We have an event in 2023, pretty cool no?

What are the disadvantages of this proposal (relative to the current situation and/or counter-proposals)

We have to work to have an event?

Decision

A decision on what date we want KB 23 to be should happen in the next three weeks, so we can go ahead with booking a date with Freiland.

K

Kris Fri 3 Feb 2023 9:32PM

9 days??? Heck yes!

C

Cairn (Clément) Sat 4 Feb 2023 11:15AM

Ah ah yes this is including Build, updated the table to clarify this.

J

Jack Sat 4 Feb 2023 10:00AM

I think these 9 days is including build 😂.

For the purpose of realizer recruiting I am in favour of the proposed dates as I think we should avoid clashing with other big Burner events (similar size or bigger), not festivals where there is only fairly little community overlap (Roztoc)

K

Kaliope Sat 4 Feb 2023 11:38AM

14-20 August would give the possibility not to overlap with any other Burner events, including the build days and Rebirth (which is being organized by many people from our community that we love and would miss at kiez burn – is there already a statement? besides, this is another local event and much closer to berlin – unlike borderland, nowhere and BM...)

AK

Alex Kaos Sat 4 Feb 2023 3:54PM

Yes I can see the influence the Prometheans are having on KB as Promethean-orientated events got into this calendar.....

Rebirth Burn > Roztoc/Phoenix, within the context of KB.

(Fyi those are my highest earning weekends of the year, so I am advising against my own interests here)

I agree with @Jack on that point.

I also would advice to take the @everyone tag on this AP with a grain of salt. This is s decision made by the realizes, korg and board. The rest of the community show up once those teams have done the heavy lifting, and including our (community) voices at this stage can make extra noise.

It's a 'nice' thing to do, but please;

  • Focus on the agreement of the 20% that do 80% of the work for this decision.

    Especially in the interest of sustainability.

C

Ceci Sat 4 Feb 2023 6:35PM

on a different note:

these are my considerations why i would rather have the burn on 15.07-23.07 :)

  • first big major reason for me: better earlier than later ;) I personally see myself having to juggle between organizing towards a well structure event and wanting to enjoy summer. i could imagine higher risk for burn outs and fuck ups the later the event will be. I can also imagine lots people taking less responsabilities, as they can imagine to be pretty worn out from summer parties already. I asked myself: if the event last year would have been one month later, would i have had the same amount of energy to put in it? i wouldnt, as it was already pretty burnouty pre-event like this!:/ but of course this is just my personal experience.

  • Why is boom taken so strongly into considertaion? it´s not a burn and it´s in portugal. is there also a very big part of kiez burners who goes there this year that i´m not aware of? personally i this that if we have boom in the list we should have also other cool festivals that are happening around. of course that would mean that we couldnt find any date as there is a cool festival for every different week in summer :)

  • i would also discuss the topic that we should prioritize bigger events over the fairly small community events: the re-birth will host about 100 KB ( and pretty much the whole Kunt camp :)) which is a pretty high ratio (1/12) Can this be said the same for borderland for example? or for Burning man itself? do we have a lot of people in the KB community who are majorly involved in Borderland Build?. just asking because i actually have no idea :)

BRI

Poll Created Sun 5 Feb 2023 11:11AM

Let's find out who actually goes to any of these mentioned festivals? Closed Fri 17 Feb 2023 10:00PM

Outcome
by B r i Sun 19 Feb 2023 1:45PM

24 people voted

Nowhere is the clear winner with 10 votes

Rebirth, with 7 votes, sounds like it would move around KB as originally mentioned in the Kick-of weekend... potentially kicking it off the ballot, and having it hover above like an angelic soul, ready to rebirth into the new date, once the pregnant pause of deciding a date for KB is over.

Borderland gets -2 points, bc of the non-commitment of 2 voters, putting it at 4 votes

If we organize the priorities of the group of people that voted, they would look like:

1)Nowhere

2) Kiezburn ∞)Rebirth

3)Phoenix fire

4)Borderland

5)Roztoc

6)Burning man

Realizer or not, though we technically know who has volunteered to 'realize.'

This would help to have a clearer view of the number of people (that are involved) that will not miss the other festival, rather then just saying 'some people will go here and a person will go there.'

I'm aware of the secondary reason to not conflict with other burns and not compete for like minded attendees, this is to see involved peoples plans.

On the other side, KB has always sold out and fresh blood helps practice and teach principles including Inclusion 😌

Results

Results Option % of points Voters
Nowehere 25.6% 10 C CT A K AK H P B H EJ
Rebirth 17.9% 7 C MK VRS CT C B EJ
Borderland 15.4% 6 JH PAK JK G AK H
Only Kiezburn 15.4% 6 JH J BRI K M S
Phoenix fire 12.8% 5 C K C A AK
Roztoc 7.7% 3 A AK P
THE Burning man 5.1% 2 K H
Boom 0.0% 0  
Undecided 0% 0  

24 of 24 people have voted (100%)

JH

Jaina Hirai Sun 5 Feb 2023 12:02PM

Borderland
Only Kiezburn

I typically only go to Kiez Burn, but if I were to attend a second burn in 2023 it would be "Where The Sheep Sleep" in the Netherlands, which is not listed. If I were to attend a third burn, it would be Borderland.

K

Kaylin Sun 5 Feb 2023 12:30PM

Phoenix fire

Fireplay and local

B

Bee Mon 6 Feb 2023 11:31AM

Rebirth
Nowehere

Nowhere is not confirmed yet but I will definitely attend the Rebirth.

AK

Alex Kaos Mon 6 Feb 2023 3:27PM

Roztoc
Phoenix fire
Nowehere
Borderland

These are the events in hope to make. No tickets purchased yet.

S

Saskia Thu 9 Feb 2023 9:48AM

Only Kiezburn

No time no moneyz haha

K

Kitt Fri 17 Feb 2023 7:24AM

Only Kiezburn

Might do a UK burn or the sheep but my decision shouldn't affect the date choice

H

Hanna-Maija (Animal) Sun 5 Feb 2023 6:29PM

Hi just came here to say that I don't care - I think the people taking the biggest realiser roles are more than capable to decide the dates and this doesn't need my input. For me KB is the most important event of the summer and I will make my other plans around it. Having a date to mark to my calendar is more important to me than what the date actually is so that I can start planning. It's sadly impossible to make everyone happy and that is the weight that the decision makers need to carry.

S

Saskia Thu 9 Feb 2023 9:48AM

signing

VRS

Veroca R. Sala Sun 5 Feb 2023 8:27PM

TLDR : Kiez Burn should avoid clashing with emerging local burns and di-prioritize large-international burns. Move the date to earlier: 17.07

I am involved in Kiez Burn and Re-birth. I am doing efforts to form a team to take on Storage for Kiez burn this year, and will also be involved in re-birth. I think that if these two events happen at the same time, either Kiez burn will miss a whole camp with around 30 members who have brought so much to the event OR, simply a small regional burn will not happen (re-birth). I think both are sad, just remember that Kiez Burn once was just as small...

From a more broad community standpoint

I also believe we should as community builders ensure Kiez Burn is not stepping over other local initiatives or burns that happen in the area instead of prioritizing bigger burns with 1000+ participants in other countries, these events will not be at such risk to not happen when overlapping with Kiez Burn. I understand people want to go to more burns, but I believe that whenever possible, Kiez Burn should care about the emerging events that house a portion of Kiez burn itself. Re birth also receives a percentage of new burners who get to see the 11 principles better and closer as not possible in bigger burns, impacting positively the burner community locally.

I think is not about avoiding clashing with other events to be able to attend more burns, but to build a community from where we are and continue empowering people to take initiatives not only for the benefit of Kiez event! From Kiez Burn comes Re-birth, are we gonna kill it? this is sad.

C

Chiara Sun 5 Feb 2023 9:38PM

My memory from the Kickoff Weekend is that we agreed that Kiezburn would happen 9-13 August only at the condition that the Rebirth could move to early July without too much hassle - which seemed to be the case initially due to less restrictions on location. I don’t think it was ever anyone’s intention to have both events at the same time or to consider it less important than other burns, that would be very unfair (personally I care more about attending the Rebirth than other EU burns or festivals, and I think that’s true for a lot of people). So if that was a wrong assumption and the Rebirth cannot or doesn’t really want to move (which is fair enough, the date was decided first) I think we should change the date for Kiezburn. Is that the case?

EJ

Erin Jeavons-Fellows Mon 6 Feb 2023 7:55AM

Hi there!

Chiming in here as the org lead for ReBirth. I'm aware that this has been a topic. It's disappointing that KB is kuntsidering the weekend that we have allockunted for our little event. However, it is possible to move our dates.

It won't be moved to the beginning of July as Nowhere is something I would like to attend.

If our dates get chosen, Rebirth will be moved to probably June, September or October. The kunts will need at least a month either side of KB to plan for this as most are leads for Rebirth event.

CT

Caro T Mon 6 Feb 2023 12:02PM

As a follow up question to your last sentence about the Kunts needing at least a month either side of KB (which makes total sense). This would mean that we actually connot not overlap with Rebirth, correct? Unless we take the burn weekend 16.07, meaning our build overlaps again with Nowhere which had it's own issues last year (realiser shortage, burnt out burners, covid overlap, etc).

JK

Johannes Klöppner Mon 6 Feb 2023 9:42AM

As currently it seems that almost no one of the realizers goes to the Big Burn, should we not consider, putting Kiezburn on that weekend(as opposed to take it completely out of consideration like we done during the Kickoff weekend)? My guess would be that Borderland and Nowhere are much bigger competition for many in the community then the big one. I share also the opinion that Boom and other non Burner Events should not be taken in consideration, as otherwise you never can stop, because what about Ozora, Wilde Möhre or the thousand other cool festivals a handful people go.

K

Kris Mon 6 Feb 2023 3:36PM

More Kiez Burners should go to Burning Man and get a sense of what it's like tbh.

C

Cris Tue 7 Feb 2023 12:55PM

totally agree!!!

you're paying!! 🎉

K

Kris Tue 7 Feb 2023 6:13PM

OK, step one is that we become an official regional so I can get you some free tickets

CT

Caro T Wed 8 Feb 2023 1:49PM

actually working on an advice process about that as we speak xD

CT

Caro T Mon 6 Feb 2023 12:12PM

I would highly recommend doing Kiez Burn in August, maybe like Johannes suggested during the Big Burn weekend or sadly a bit close to the Rebirth Burn. Doing Kiez Burn in July last year ended up with many issues due to overlapping with the big regional burns. For instance, we had a lack of experienced realizers able to commit or able to be there during build as they were at Nowhere, exhausted from Nowhere or covid sick from Nowhere. Whilst I agree with Vero, that from a community-building standpoint we should prioritise our own local endeavours more than the bigger burns elsewhere (and we did this consideration last year with Holger's burn), the reality is that just as many of our inhabitants if not more go to those bigger regional burns as they go to Rebirth.

Going forward at our new TBC-Gelände, returning to our June dates should be advisable to never have this terrible weighing of Burns ever again. But this year, alas.

C

Cris Tue 7 Feb 2023 12:47PM

Re-Birth Burn for president!

Item removed

C

Chiara Tue 14 Feb 2023 12:02PM

Let's take the burning man weekend and subtract a bunch of flights to Nevada and back from our environmental footprint!

C

Chiara Tue 14 Feb 2023 12:19PM

Jokes aside... how do we make this decision? I think a lot of us would need to know rather soon. Can we call a realizer meeting this week and vote? I don't really see a clear winner from this discussion, but these seem to be the options if we decide to only consider EU burns as important factors:

19-23.07: between the two big EU burns

2.08-6.08: kb build overlaps with borderland, rebirth would need to be rescheduled

9.08-13.08: rebirth would need to be rescheduled

16.08-20.08: rebirth would need to be rescheduled

27.08-27.08: given the promethean involvement with phoenix, many of us would be sad about this - but it does seem fair to prioritize burns over fire conventions.

31.08-3.09: overlap with the Big Burn. Maybe more importantly, diluting the work of kiezburn orga over the entire summer sounds exhausting.

C

Ceci Tue 14 Feb 2023 12:50PM

In any case, if it'll happen in one of the first 3 weeks of august, the rebirth will be reschedule. So there is no need to take it in account with the build and strike 😊

C

Chiara Tue 14 Feb 2023 1:04PM

thanks for clarifying! I've edited the comment :)

H

Hanna-Maija (Animal) Tue 14 Feb 2023 1:01PM

Please someone call a meeting and make a decision already. Just following this indecisiveness here is making my hair go gray :D No one wants to take responsibility over the decision? I volunteer making it myself. I decide on the week of 16.08-20.08. There. DONE.

C

Cairn (Clément) Thu 16 Feb 2023 1:40PM

Hey everyone, thank you so much for your inputs!

As we see, it's not possible to make a perfect decision.

Now that we have gathered as many of the elements to take into account, the Board will review the topic and come back with a decision asap.

Latest by our next meeting on 23.02, ideally earlier 🙂

JH

Jaina Hirai Thu 23 Feb 2023 8:01AM

Today’s the decision day! Full trust in the board’s decision, whatever it may be. I am beyond excited to know the dates will be set today! 😍

K

Kitt Fri 17 Feb 2023 7:34AM

How many people can go to rebirth? It's unfortunate there's a clash. Is it open to the community still or set? I feel very out of the loop with this event, only heard of it in passing.

B

Bee Sat 18 Feb 2023 12:26PM

100~ or so folk I guess including an entire camp and a lot of Kiez Burn Realizers. It is generally open to the community but also much smaller than KB so limited tickets. (therefore doesn't get widely advertised as the orga roles are 40% or maybe more of the tickets sold)

K

Kris Fri 17 Feb 2023 6:40PM

Inside goss is that Nowhere will make a go-ahead decision by end of month. We might actually announce before them this time! (cc @Cairn (Clément) )

JT

Jan Thomas Mon 20 Feb 2023 10:53AM

Is there a decision on the date now, or how will it happen? The originally proposed date 9.-13.8. with build starting from 5.8. would be fine with Freiland. I can't see a clear alternative proposal, and thanks to the kind Rebirth crew to being open to move their event.

So unless there is a clear alternative proposal (which I can't see currently) - Can please reach a go or no-go decision on going with 9.-13.8. now? It's less than 6 months until the intended date and we need to urgently move forward.

C

Cairn (Clément) Fri 24 Feb 2023 8:28AM

UPDATE: DECISION HAS BEEN REACHED, WE HAVE DATES!

09 - 13 August

Thank you for your patience on this.

The main points that have impacted the decision:

  • Wish to not impede with other European Burns

  • Ensuring that the dates do not interfere with Rebirth, which has agreed to change their dates, as it doesn't represent a major hassle

  • Availability of the majority of Realisers

PS: Found this process too long and the restrictions too many? Join the scouting team, and help us find a new place where our doocracy can run wild and free! :)

JH

Jaina Hirai Fri 24 Feb 2023 9:41AM

Thank you for the info! To be sure I got this right, will the burn officially end on Sunday or on Monday? I had heard a rumor we would end on Monday this year, and was very excited to have a “Sleepy Sunday” Temple and recovery day. [EDIT: I'm totally okay if the Board decided against the extra day of burn, just want to give my camp correct and accurate info]