talk.kiezburn.org
Fri 4 Jun 2021 1:07PM

[Decision] Dogs at Kiez Burn 2021

S Sunniva Public Seen by 188

Last edited: 18.6.21

A decision has been made

  • Who made the decision: @Sunniva, @Veroca R. Sala & @Hanna-Maija (Animal)

  • When the decision was made: 11.6.21

  • Decision Summary: We will have a Dog Lead + up to 6 dogs at Kiez Burn this year! Following a week of community engagement and discussion about our proposal, and after getting in touch with all the leads and positions affected and adjusting our suggested agreements based on the feedback we have received, we have decided that we have sufficient support and agreement to give this test run a try. We will now move forward with organising everything for this to happen as smooth as possible.

  • If you have any concerns about this proposal, please reach out to any of us or comment in this thread!

  • If you would like to bring your dog to Kiez Burn 2021, please get in touch!

💕🐶💕

Short summary:

This advice process is about a proposal for a test run with up to 6 dogs accompanying their humans for Kiez Burn 2021.

Proposers

@Sunniva, @Veroca R. Sala & @Hanna-Maija (Animal)

We have all been engaged in the Kiez Burn community at different levels for several years and we are all happy dog parents in the default world. For this year’s Kiez Burn, we would like to propose a test run with having our dogs accompany us and possibly 3 more humans onsite for the duration of the event.

 

Information gathered before posting

  • We know that Freiland allows dogs on their land, and that the land usually is an area used for dog walks. Unlike many other burn environments, Kiez Burn offers a particularly dog-friendly environment at Freiland.

  • Some of us already brought our dogs to the Kiez Burn Campout in September 2020 and made some great experiences and fruitful lessons from that.

  • Borderland has allowed dogs to their events at Hedeland. 

  • In an advice process in a Facebook post for Borderlings in 2018, a poll was created with the question: “Should dogs be allowed or should we follow the lines of Burning Man and not allow pets at all?”. As a result, 154 people voted “Ban dogs completely - this event is not a suitable environment for pets”, while a majority of 265 people voted for either “Allow dogs” (121 votes), “I don’t have the right to ban other people’s expression of joy, community and love” (78 votes), “I do not mind either alternative” (37 votes), or “Allow dogs BUT on a leash at all times and kept away from crowded spaces” (29 votes). Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/theborderland/permalink/1853599764659448

  • In the case of protecting potential allergic humans, we know that allergens from dogs are commonly spread in indoor environments. Because Kiez Burn takes place outdoors, it is our understanding that the risk of allergic reactions are severely decreased. In having restricted areas for dogs, and providing areas and spaces completely free of dogs, we believe that any allergic burner can peacefully coexist with our dogs during Kiez Burn. Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/pet-allergy/symptoms-causes/syc-20352192

People/roles most affected by this proposal + with the most knowledge and experience relevant to this proposal

  • Safety protocols: @CJ Yetman and @Franzi

  • Rangers: @Jessie and @Cris

  • The community

  • Insurance: @Holger Wessels

  • Site planning: @Cairn (Clément)

@Sunniva will check-in with the leads tagged above if we don't hear back from them within the next week.

The proposal

Background

Freiland is a beautiful dog-friendly area, and the Kiez Burn community consists of many passionate dog owners and friends of dogs. For Kiez Burn 2021, we propose to implement the following agreements for dogs to accompany their humans throughout the event. We see this year’s burn as a great opportunity to test run bringing dogs to Kiez Burn. Allowing some dogs onsite would be an inclusive alteration for some of our community members, and it could make all of us better equipped to welcome service dogs in the future.

Proposal & implementation

These are the agreements we propose in order to allow dogs onsite during Kiez Burn 2021.

Agreements:

  1. There will be a Dog Lead present and available via radio throughout the event. The Dog Lead will be the point of contact in any incident involving a dog onsite, and takes full responsibility in resolving matters, alternatively together with other leads, depending on what the given circumstance requires.

  2. All dogs accompanying their humans shall be registered with the Dog Lead beforehand. This first year a maximum of 6 dogs will be allowed. We will only allow vaccinated dogs with “Hundehaftpflicht” insurance. No female dogs in heat. All dogs will be clearly marked and will carry either electrical lights or reflectives at nighttime.

  3. All dogs shall be supervised by a Responsible Human at any given time, and on leash when walking around onsite. The responsibilities of a Responsible Human includes making sure the dog only goes where it’s allowed to go, collecting dog M(p)OOP and removing it appropriately from site, and covering their dogs needs (shielding from loud sounds/agitated humans, providing sufficient water and food etc.) Dog Lead will provide appropriate and mindful guidelines for all Responsible Humans prior to the event.

  4. Dogs are not to be allowed in the First Aid Tent, Welfare or any kitchen areas. Camps and art installations can choose if their area is dog-friendly or not. Quiet hours also apply to dogs.

  5. One human can be a Responsible Human for several dogs at a time if necessary, for example when helping other Responsible Humans while they do their respective volunteer shifts.

  6. Designated areas for dogs in enclosed spaces and structures where the dogs can play or rest safely and unleashed while supervised by at least one Responsible Human can be provided. Dog Lead will make sure that these designated areas are sufficiently secured.

  7. Dogs come second to meeting the needs of other humans in physical areas and activities throughout the event. Concerns, wishes and needs shall be respected without any further questions in all areas that are not designated areas for dogs.

  8. All Responsible Humans are completely liable for the actions of their dog. If an incident occurs where a dog have caused fear or harm during the event, such an incident is initially the responsibility of the Dog Lead. Depending on severity, Site Lead will make the final call, and the Responsible Human and their dog must leave the event. Protocols for these scenarios will be cleared with Site Lead and Ranger Lead prior to the event.

  9. Dog Lead will make sure that all protocols, agreements and guidelines as well as a bullet list with crucial details for dogs at Kiez Burn is available and communicated to Gate, Welfare, First Aid, Site Leads and Rangers. A list with contact details, photos of dogs and their Responsible Humans will also be provided.

  10. Dog Lead will have close contact with all Responsible Humans prior to and throughout the event. Dog Lead is also responsible to collect feedback, experiences and register incidents involving dogs at Kiez Burn. In order to summarise this test run, a report will be presented to the community sometime after the event. If we manage to go through with this test run without any serious incidents, complaints or objections, we propose to continue with our arrangement in the future, and adjust the Kiez Burn regulation excluding dogs from our event accordingly.

Who would implement this proposal

@Sunniva and @Hanna-Maija (Animal) will volunteer as this year’s Dog Leads. @Veroca R. Sala will support when necessary.

When this proposal would be implemented

We would like to close the advice process within a week’s time: Friday 11th of June at 15.00. The proposal would be set in action immediately after.

The cost (time, money, effort, etc.) of this proposal

Our proposal should have no direct impact on the finances of Kiez Burn. In regards to time and effort, our goal is to be as independent as possible from other functions during the burn, and that we will only include other leads in the event of a severe incident.

Dog Lead will make sure that all protocols, agreements and guidelines as well as a bullet list with crucial details for dogs at Kiez Burn is available and communicated to Gate, Welfare, First Aid, Site Leads and Rangers. A list with contact details, photos of dogs and their Responsible Humans will also be provided.

What some advantages of this proposal are

Our understanding is that this proposal is in line with the Kiez Burn principles, and that it especially honors the principles of Inclusion, Immediacy and Radical Self-Expression. We would be able to welcome and include community members together with their canine companions.

What some disadvantages of this proposal are

At the time of making this proposal, Kiez Burn has a strict NO PETS POLICY (with the exception of service dogs) that is listed under “inclusion” in one of the eleven Kiez Burn principles. The goal of a test run with dogs accompanying their humans to Kiez Burn in 2021 is an alteration to the no pets policy in the Kiez Burn principles IF this year’s test run is successful.

 

Decision

We would like to make a decision about this proposal by next Friday 11th of June.

Thank you for reading through!

Are there any disadvantages you think we should consider? Any advantages we didn't think of yet? Do you think we forgot to consider something crucial? We are curious to receive your feedback on this proposal within the next week!

J

Jessie Thu 5 Aug 2021 4:34PM

Printed out one in b/w but we sure take a nice colored one as well :-) @Sunniva @Cris

S

Sunniva Wed 4 Aug 2021 1:32PM

All good. I'll find a solution to get it printed and handed out for the Rangers and anyone who wants it 😊

C

Cris Wed 4 Aug 2021 1:15PM

Mist! I just came back from the copy shop. I think I already ask this mehrmals but.., could the Ranger Station have this printed out? Thank you for the poster, looks great!

S

Sunniva Wed 4 Aug 2021 10:24AM

This year we will have a small handful of rescue pups joining our adventure at Freiland ✨ These 3 dogs + 2 human Dog Leads will be part of this year's trial run for dogs at Kiez Burn!


Unlike many other burn environments, Kiez Burn offers a particularly dog-friendly environment at Freiland. The dogs will be supervised by a Responsible Human at any given time, and on leash when walking around onsite. Dogs will not be allowed in the First Aid Tent, Welfare or any kitchen areas. Camps and art installations can choose if their area is dog-friendly or not. You will find the detailed agreements and guidelines for this at the Gate onsite and on Talk!


The Dog Leads are responsible to collect feedback, experiences and register incidents involving dogs at Kiez Burn. In order to summarise this test run, a report will be presented to the community sometime after the event. If we manage to go through with this test run without any serious incidents, complaints or objections, we propose to continue with having dogs at our burn in the future, and adjust the Kiez Burn no pets policy to allow our canine companions in years to come 💕


If you see a dog onsite, please always ask before trying to pet or feed them, no matter how cute and fluffy they look! If you have any concerns about dogs at Kiez Burn, please reach out to Dog Leads Sunniva or Hanna-Maija. With a decent amount of responsibility, considerations and do-ocracy and plenty of fluffy love, we're excited to give this a try!

S

Sunniva Wed 4 Aug 2021 9:44AM

In that case your best option might be to simply start a new thread and copy paste the information.

CK

Carnelian King Wed 4 Aug 2021 9:04AM

Yes, I am attempting to move the proposal to a new thread as you directed but am not finding it as an option listed here upon clicking these three dots.

Sorry if I made the assumption you hadn't tried your best to communicate, I don't mean to imply you could have done better- just that we would like for the chance to attend not to be taken away from Kudra, and instead the responsibility passed over to us.

S

Sunniva Wed 4 Aug 2021 8:29AM

Hi @Carnelian King if you go to your proposal post and scroll down to the bottom, you will see three dots aligned in the bottom right corner. If you press them you'll find the option to "Move item" and make a new thread for your proposal. Good luck with that.

I will say this: I told you on the 26th of June that Aly would need to get in contact with us for us to make a final decision. I reached back out again on the 20th of July to say that if Aly still wants to bring their dog, they would need to get in touch with us that week. On the 22nd of July I asked them to suggest a time for a call. On the 27th of July I reminded them that we still need to have a call, and I suggested the following day. Unfortunately, Aly was unable to show up for a call, and at the end of last week I was out of resources to facilitate a call for them. I told them that I’m noticing that I’m out of capacity to engage with their communication style and unreliable tendencies of the short time we’ve been in contact. As this years dog leads, we decided to make a decision based on the information Aly had shared with us up until that point in writing. Aly had told us that their dog is sick and dying, and they had shared many worrying details about the state of Kudra as listed in my comment beneath. Following our decision this Sunday, we expressed to you and Aly that our decision was final and that unfortunately we cannot help you any further.

I understand that we have different perspectives and understandings of the situation. I would appreciate it if we could all do our best not to make any assumptions or overstatements, and to honour each other's time and energy. Thank you.

CK

Carnelian King Wed 4 Aug 2021 7:19AM

Thank you for your comment Vero. It is clear that you all put a lot of work into planning this trial run for the dogs and want it to go well without too much stress.
 I would like to help facilitate this, while also including our dog.

To clarify what happened with communication, it’s not as simple as was stated.
I thought we were told to receive approval from our Kiez before Kudra was to meet one of the dog leads, then once we did I put Sunniva and Aly in touch (July 7th).

 After this, Aly missed a meeting with Sunniva who did not reach out that she was waiting for this meeting or try to get in contact. When we spoke and I asked if she would be willing to talk to Aly during our last meeting she said no and that Aly’s communication style was so frustrating that she no longer wanted to have anything to do with them.

This lapse in communication was partially to do with having just gotten Kudra’s diagnosis and having been very involved with the Prometheans and getting things ready for our camp. Also my fault for incorrectly realizing that we needed to get approval from the Kiez first and not that they should be put in touch immediately.

The phrase “sick and dying” is also misleading and creates a more simplistic picture than exist.
Kudra is not suffering any symptoms at this point, and although she has only a few months to live this should not affect the quality of her interactions with other Burners- nor be at all obvious to anyone. It is not as if she is throwing up or having heat stroke, she just often looks a bit tired and relaxed.
 
Happy to move our proposal to another thread however, I wanted to bring up how things were from our perspective- as we received this information just a few days ago and are also doing our best to deal with it. 🤞

VRS

Veroca R. Sala Tue 3 Aug 2021 10:07PM


Hi all, I can see the urge of bringing Kudra to Kiez Burn. However, I dont think the way this is moving forward is the way we reach decisions.

From the dog team:
I know it looks like Kiez Burn has added a lot of apparently unnecessary bureaucracy to its planning. The reality is, we did plan this trial run for dogs at Kiez Burn in advance. We collected advice, refined the proposal, and reached a decision. Then we created a team, a protocol, and a procedure to allow dogs at the event along with an application process that included the possibility of either admitting or rejecting the dog.

Unfortunately, Kudra has been declined because the paw parent hasn't been able to meet us for a call + Kudra doesn't seem to be in good health or up to the standard the Dog Leads are willing to handle at the event during this trial run.

Now we understand your frustration and you are welcome to propose, seek advice and run the process separately but that would be an independent proposal from this one on this thread.

The Dog Leads have made it clear that they cannot support bringing a sick and dying dog to Kiez Burn, and that they do not want to have a part in this plan.

From a Talk moderation perspective:

@Carnelian King Please move your proposal to a separate, new thread. The initial advice process for a trial run on this thread has been done and it is complete.

In addition, those affected should be tagged to call their attention, here is the process more in detail - I recommend you to take a look into it before pushing forward, so as to reach a legitimate consensual decision: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/9EYZqPrk/the-advice-process

My personal input: I wish the current dog team not to be stressed out so close to the event for which they have worked so hard, they have done already a lot and they have set boundaries on what is that they dont want to take.

I wish for myself to have a relaxed 3 day pre-build after all these months of madness orga, Im not to stand in your way.

I wish you and Kudra the best.

MG

Mi Go
Abstain
Fri 6 Aug 2021 2:54PM

Speaking as an animal lover, I feel a lot of compassion for Kudra and his friends. On a personal level, I do hope the best for him and Aly, and I recognise that it's an emotional topic.

From a place of care I do recommend finding a solution that allows Aly to go to the burn for a couple of nights while Kudra is cared for offsite.

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