talk.kiezburn.org
June 4th, 2021 13:07

[Decision] Dogs at Kiez Burn 2021

Sunniva
Sunniva Public Seen by 157

Last edited: 18.6.21

A decision has been made

  • Who made the decision: @Sunniva, @Veroca R. Sala & @Hanna-Maija (Animal)

  • When the decision was made: 11.6.21

  • Decision Summary: We will have a Dog Lead + up to 6 dogs at Kiez Burn this year! Following a week of community engagement and discussion about our proposal, and after getting in touch with all the leads and positions affected and adjusting our suggested agreements based on the feedback we have received, we have decided that we have sufficient support and agreement to give this test run a try. We will now move forward with organising everything for this to happen as smooth as possible.

  • If you have any concerns about this proposal, please reach out to any of us or comment in this thread!

  • If you would like to bring your dog to Kiez Burn 2021, please get in touch!

💕🐶💕

Short summary:

This advice process is about a proposal for a test run with up to 6 dogs accompanying their humans for Kiez Burn 2021.

Proposers

@Sunniva, @Veroca R. Sala & @Hanna-Maija (Animal)

We have all been engaged in the Kiez Burn community at different levels for several years and we are all happy dog parents in the default world. For this year’s Kiez Burn, we would like to propose a test run with having our dogs accompany us and possibly 3 more humans onsite for the duration of the event.

 

Information gathered before posting

  • We know that Freiland allows dogs on their land, and that the land usually is an area used for dog walks. Unlike many other burn environments, Kiez Burn offers a particularly dog-friendly environment at Freiland.

  • Some of us already brought our dogs to the Kiez Burn Campout in September 2020 and made some great experiences and fruitful lessons from that.

  • Borderland has allowed dogs to their events at Hedeland. 

  • In an advice process in a Facebook post for Borderlings in 2018, a poll was created with the question: “Should dogs be allowed or should we follow the lines of Burning Man and not allow pets at all?”. As a result, 154 people voted “Ban dogs completely - this event is not a suitable environment for pets”, while a majority of 265 people voted for either “Allow dogs” (121 votes), “I don’t have the right to ban other people’s expression of joy, community and love” (78 votes), “I do not mind either alternative” (37 votes), or “Allow dogs BUT on a leash at all times and kept away from crowded spaces” (29 votes). Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/theborderland/permalink/1853599764659448

  • In the case of protecting potential allergic humans, we know that allergens from dogs are commonly spread in indoor environments. Because Kiez Burn takes place outdoors, it is our understanding that the risk of allergic reactions are severely decreased. In having restricted areas for dogs, and providing areas and spaces completely free of dogs, we believe that any allergic burner can peacefully coexist with our dogs during Kiez Burn. Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/pet-allergy/symptoms-causes/syc-20352192

People/roles most affected by this proposal + with the most knowledge and experience relevant to this proposal

  • Safety protocols: @CJ Yetman and @Franzi

  • Rangers: @Jessie and @Cris

  • The community

  • Insurance: @Holger Wessels

  • Site planning: @Cairn (Clément)

@Sunniva will check-in with the leads tagged above if we don't hear back from them within the next week.

The proposal

Background

Freiland is a beautiful dog-friendly area, and the Kiez Burn community consists of many passionate dog owners and friends of dogs. For Kiez Burn 2021, we propose to implement the following agreements for dogs to accompany their humans throughout the event. We see this year’s burn as a great opportunity to test run bringing dogs to Kiez Burn. Allowing some dogs onsite would be an inclusive alteration for some of our community members, and it could make all of us better equipped to welcome service dogs in the future.

Proposal & implementation

These are the agreements we propose in order to allow dogs onsite during Kiez Burn 2021.

Agreements:

  1. There will be a Dog Lead present and available via radio throughout the event. The Dog Lead will be the point of contact in any incident involving a dog onsite, and takes full responsibility in resolving matters, alternatively together with other leads, depending on what the given circumstance requires.

  2. All dogs accompanying their humans shall be registered with the Dog Lead beforehand. This first year a maximum of 6 dogs will be allowed. We will only allow vaccinated dogs with “Hundehaftpflicht” insurance. No female dogs in heat. All dogs will be clearly marked and will carry either electrical lights or reflectives at nighttime.

  3. All dogs shall be supervised by a Responsible Human at any given time, and on leash when walking around onsite. The responsibilities of a Responsible Human includes making sure the dog only goes where it’s allowed to go, collecting dog M(p)OOP and removing it appropriately from site, and covering their dogs needs (shielding from loud sounds/agitated humans, providing sufficient water and food etc.) Dog Lead will provide appropriate and mindful guidelines for all Responsible Humans prior to the event.

  4. Dogs are not to be allowed in the First Aid Tent, Welfare or any kitchen areas. Camps and art installations can choose if their area is dog-friendly or not. Quiet hours also apply to dogs.

  5. One human can be a Responsible Human for several dogs at a time if necessary, for example when helping other Responsible Humans while they do their respective volunteer shifts.

  6. Designated areas for dogs in enclosed spaces and structures where the dogs can play or rest safely and unleashed while supervised by at least one Responsible Human can be provided. Dog Lead will make sure that these designated areas are sufficiently secured.

  7. Dogs come second to meeting the needs of other humans in physical areas and activities throughout the event. Concerns, wishes and needs shall be respected without any further questions in all areas that are not designated areas for dogs.

  8. All Responsible Humans are completely liable for the actions of their dog. If an incident occurs where a dog have caused fear or harm during the event, such an incident is initially the responsibility of the Dog Lead. Depending on severity, Site Lead will make the final call, and the Responsible Human and their dog must leave the event. Protocols for these scenarios will be cleared with Site Lead and Ranger Lead prior to the event.

  9. Dog Lead will make sure that all protocols, agreements and guidelines as well as a bullet list with crucial details for dogs at Kiez Burn is available and communicated to Gate, Welfare, First Aid, Site Leads and Rangers. A list with contact details, photos of dogs and their Responsible Humans will also be provided.

  10. Dog Lead will have close contact with all Responsible Humans prior to and throughout the event. Dog Lead is also responsible to collect feedback, experiences and register incidents involving dogs at Kiez Burn. In order to summarise this test run, a report will be presented to the community sometime after the event. If we manage to go through with this test run without any serious incidents, complaints or objections, we propose to continue with our arrangement in the future, and adjust the Kiez Burn regulation excluding dogs from our event accordingly.

Who would implement this proposal

@Sunniva and @Hanna-Maija (Animal) will volunteer as this year’s Dog Leads. @Veroca R. Sala will support when necessary.

When this proposal would be implemented

We would like to close the advice process within a week’s time: Friday 11th of June at 15.00. The proposal would be set in action immediately after.

The cost (time, money, effort, etc.) of this proposal

Our proposal should have no direct impact on the finances of Kiez Burn. In regards to time and effort, our goal is to be as independent as possible from other functions during the burn, and that we will only include other leads in the event of a severe incident.

Dog Lead will make sure that all protocols, agreements and guidelines as well as a bullet list with crucial details for dogs at Kiez Burn is available and communicated to Gate, Welfare, First Aid, Site Leads and Rangers. A list with contact details, photos of dogs and their Responsible Humans will also be provided.

What some advantages of this proposal are

Our understanding is that this proposal is in line with the Kiez Burn principles, and that it especially honors the principles of Inclusion, Immediacy and Radical Self-Expression. We would be able to welcome and include community members together with their canine companions.

What some disadvantages of this proposal are

At the time of making this proposal, Kiez Burn has a strict NO PETS POLICY (with the exception of service dogs) that is listed under “inclusion” in one of the eleven Kiez Burn principles. The goal of a test run with dogs accompanying their humans to Kiez Burn in 2021 is an alteration to the no pets policy in the Kiez Burn principles IF this year’s test run is successful.

 

Decision

We would like to make a decision about this proposal by next Friday 11th of June.

Thank you for reading through!

Are there any disadvantages you think we should consider? Any advantages we didn't think of yet? Do you think we forgot to consider something crucial? We are curious to receive your feedback on this proposal within the next week!

Mareike

Mareike July 28th, 2021 10:47

@Sunniva @Hanna-Maija (Animal) once the 6 Dogs/Dog Owners are registered could you pass on the list to me so we have it at the Gate? :)

Jarrod Wright

Jarrod Wright July 22nd, 2021 18:19

Gotcha! sync'd 😎

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 22nd, 2021 15:31

getting lost on talk? lol! welcome to the jungle!

Sunniva

Sunniva July 22nd, 2021 11:32

Hi @Jarrod Wright! Yep that's right - I posted it in the program thread here on Talk. Here's the direct link: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/IvTp4cxU/event-program-coordination-/34

Jarrod Wright

Jarrod Wright July 20th, 2021 21:28

@Sunniva @Hanna-Maija (Animal) I'm fairly certain that I saw a document or post on talk that contained the information that was requested to be placed in the program about dogs at Kiezburn. I don't seem to be able to find it so please can one of you message me through talk to arrange :)

Purzel

Purzel June 26th, 2021 19:57

I appreciate the thought but I don't think that first aid needs such a sheet, I'll let them know about the dogs on site and that should be enough for their field 😊

Cris

Cris June 24th, 2021 09:10

Congratulations on the successful outcome!

When you are ready, please check with Clément about where to place your dog-spaces: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/FCwUBtR8/site-planning

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 18th, 2021 10:05

@Cris Just to be clear, I don't think a dog on-site should immediately be treated as an emergency incident and trigger a bunch of activity. Keep in mind, we know from previous experience that there are a few local dogs that show up on-site during the event, with or without their owners. So I probably would not respond to seeing a dog on-site at all, unless I had reason to believe it was/is/will be problematic for some reason. Now that we will also have dogs on-site attached to KB participant responsible humans.... since they should be easily identifiable as one of the KB dogs, I might react a bit more if I saw one of those randomly walking around by itself in the middle of the night, because that would imply that it somehow escaped its supervision, probably without its responsible human knowing.

After that, what you have said makes sense to me: Rangers would try to contact the Dog Lead, if that was unsuccessful the Ranger Lead might try alternative ways of reaching the Dog Lead and/or assess if the unsupervised dog is a danger to itself or other people, if that did not resolve things they would contact the Site Lead and they would ultimately figure out what to do.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 12th, 2021 21:15

Heya, I guess this is in the making, stay tuned and of course, take part in the making process too if you wish! Find me on Telegram for more efficient communication @VerocaRS

Sven Schulte-Rummel

Sven Schulte-Rummel June 12th, 2021 14:16

Dear Sunniva - Sven, Steffi and Inka write here 🐩 - and it is so wonderful that some dogs will be allowed. Inka would like to be part of the Kiezburn pack - but it is not yet entirely clear to us how and if we can "apply"!

https://www.instagram.com/100grenzen

A woof and best regards, s & s & p

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 11th, 2021 21:21

yup, makes sense

Hanna-Maija (Animal)

Hanna-Maija (Animal) June 11th, 2021 19:43

Thank you so much Mareike! Great input. I also would not like if a stranger dog would ran towards me or jump on me and I think dog owners everywhere should be more conscious about their dogs behaviour. I think having dogs on leash and the owners being alert should stop this behaviour.

I absolutely LOVE the idea of a workshop <3 Yassssss let's do it!

Sunniva

Sunniva June 11th, 2021 16:24

Thanks for this suggestion. To my understanding, there's a whole bunch of different things that may or may not work out as we imagine. In addition, something that seems minor to me might be considered a serious incident for someone else, and vice versa. In order to have an open mind to make a comprehensive assessment afterwards, I would like to avoid specifying any nuanced scenarios beforehand. If there are numerous serious complaints, we won't suggest to continue with our arrangement in the future. Or the other way around: If we manage to go through with this test run without any serious incidents, complaints or objections, we propose to continue with our arrangement in the future, and adjust the Kiez Burn regulation excluding dogs from our event accordingly. I'll add this to our proposal. Does that sound fair to you @CJ Yetman?

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 10th, 2021 11:36

I have one other suggestion for this already wonderful proposal...

Since this is a proposal for a trial run, it might make sense to state beforehand what are the criteria with which it will be judged, e.g. if a dog bites someone this year, then we will just drop this idea completely, or if nothing significant happens and there are no serious complaints, we expect to extend this to the following year with no limit on the number of dogs allowed, or if there are numerous complaints online and on-site related to the dogs being allowed on-site this year, then we will have to strongly reconsider continuing this in future years, recognising that a very limited portion of the community actually participates here on Talk, etc.

Jan-Christian Kaspareit

Jan-Christian Kaspareit June 9th, 2021 08:48

Great advice process.

I personally don't have a problem with dogs on site, but agree with CJs reasoning. If a dog causes trouble we will probably need to handle the situation as if the corresponding human causes trouble.

As this is a new idea, I would always prioritize other participants needs and boundaries over dog owners and make sure that every dog is supervised at all times.

It will be a fun experiment, if it happens.

Mareike

Mareike June 8th, 2021 20:06

So I'm not super afraid of dogs, but also not very comfortable. More because I don't know how a dog reacts and how a dog reacts to how I react ;) To me what scares me is when a (big) dog runs towards me (probably out of excitement). I immediately do sudden movements which might again scare the dog. Also it freaks me out if a dog jumps me. --> I think this is already part of the protocol that this is not cool. The rule to be on a leash when around people also prevents it. Also Dog-humans should be watching out for this not to happen and being understanding about other peoples reservations/fears. The dog can't ask for consent to approach someone, so the owners have to be even more aware (But this also goes hand in hand with humans not just approaching and touching the dogs but asking the humans for consent!) But this is already well communicated in the proposal.

One more thing I was just thinking about: Maybe it would be good for the Dog owners and Lead to know who might not be super comfortable around dogs. They could go around the camps and check-in with people and communicate this to the owners to be extra aware. Or the Dog Lead could do a info workshop or even a "Meet the dogs" (no petting zoo though!)

So me personally I feel good about this proposal and these very responsable Dog Leads. Wuff

Otto

Otto June 8th, 2021 09:34

This is the most beautiful and perfectly written advice process I have ever seen. I am truly in awe

Sunniva

Sunniva June 7th, 2021 19:23

Me and @Hanna-Maija (Animal) will alternate the role of the Dog Lead throughout the event, and it looks like we've got the radio covered from our side. Our goal is to be reachable at any given time throughout the entirety of the event. I guess what you're describing here @Cris is a worst case scenario, and I appreciate the specifics. I just added under point 8 today that "Protocols for these scenarios will be cleared with Site Lead and Ranger Lead prior to the event." Does that offer some reassurance from our side?

I also wanna add that all of our dogs will be clearly marked, and I guess it makes sense from the scenario you're describing to make it extra clear where and to whom the dog belongs. There's a black neighbour dog that's shown up the last two burns at Freiland. Very friendly and without a leash or a collar. I feel confident that with our system we would be able to differentiate quickly between outsider dogs and our dogs.

Cris

Cris June 7th, 2021 17:56

Allow me to be very specific here: If in the middle of the night some ranger sees a loose dog or some dog-related problem, and they don't have a phone, and we cannot find the Dog Lead (because they don't know where they are and don't answer on the radio) they would pass it on to the Ranger Lead, then to the Site Lead. In the meanwhile, I guess the community may have taken care of the situation and/or the dog is am Ostsee swimming already. Just to put ourselves in the situation.

Cris

Cris June 7th, 2021 17:33

I survived several years and I'm certain, dogs are better prepared than I am 🐢

Sunniva

Sunniva June 7th, 2021 13:55

I would consider a sleeping dog supervised if it's in a calm area and enclosure in close proximity to it's Responsible Human. If they wake up or something unexpected happens, the Responsible Human should be able to hear it and react to it pretty fast.

Hanna-Maija (Animal)

Hanna-Maija (Animal) June 7th, 2021 13:45

I would not even dream about taking my dog to Nowhere. It's way too hot there for furry friends

Sunniva

Sunniva June 7th, 2021 13:41

I just edited our proposal according to the feedback we've received this far! Thanks y'all!

I'm also working on getting touch with someone from NOrg (Nowhere Orga) to learn more about why they decided to discontinue their arrangement allowing dogs onsite. I assume it's due to the particular climate and environment at Nowhere, but I'm still curious to hear more. I'll update here when I learn something new about that.

Hanna-Maija (Animal)

Hanna-Maija (Animal) June 7th, 2021 11:30

I would love to hear from someone who is afraid of dogs about what would make them comfortable! I myself can also be a little alert around dogs I don't know if they are running free. Dogs on leashes are not a problem.

Hanna-Maija (Animal)

Hanna-Maija (Animal) June 7th, 2021 11:27

I guess when the dogs responsible human is sleeping the dog doesn't need another human to watch him/her? In this case I would just require that the dog is either on lead or in a grate / van / some other place where it can't escape.

Hanna-Maija (Animal)

Hanna-Maija (Animal) June 7th, 2021 11:22

I actually have one walkie-talkie of my own that can serve as a dog lead one. Maybe we can charge it at the camp while resting.

Bee

Bee June 7th, 2021 10:23

In terms of walkies these should still be in storage (we used a couple for the Summer Camp event). @CJ Yetman and @Cris we can make a note during the Spark weekend of the amount in case there's need for more.

Remy Schneider

Remy Schneider June 7th, 2021 08:07

Thanks @Sunniva for the super thorough responses! Wishing you guys all the best - just a note that with the low noise levels this year, I think it's a great experimental time. I hope it works out for everyone involved :)

Sunniva

Sunniva June 6th, 2021 18:24

Thank you @Cris!

  • I'll prepare a bullet list with the most important details for Rangers, Site Lead, First Aid and Gate + anyone else who wants it.

  • Yeah I'm feeling optimistic that we can have one Dog Lead throughout the burn that is prepared to be waken up when necessary, but I'll make sure to arrange with a backup/substitute that could step in at last minute. This is one of the details we'll have to reassess afterwards and keep in mind for the sake of the test run.

  • I'll add that about marking the 3-6 dogs onsite well. Maybe we'll make little reflector belt bags for them or some kind of sign, and/or MAYBE EVEN A COSTUME ONE? The possibilities are endless and I just got myself a sowing machine. I'm confident we'll find a smart solution for this.

Cris

Cris June 6th, 2021 15:05

Oh, right. Just a little note: Dog Lead may have their phone all the time on them, but phones are often very! scarce on site during the event.

Cris

Cris June 6th, 2021 15:04

Beautiful proposal, thank you! I can only subscribe to all the kuddos.

From my (Ranger) side, I'd add:

  • We love protocols, and surely yours are flawless and precise. I know from experience, peeps don't read them. And if they do, they forget. Would it be possible to have a bullet list on 1 page of the most important and common stuff, that we could hang at the Rangers HQ, for the fast trainings prior to shifts? Thinking about easy clear info to see, read, consult, for a ranger starting their shift at 4am.

  • I guess the Dog Lead will sleep at some point, probably on top of their dog, but Rangers don't sleep. What do we do if a dog is wondering unattended in the middle of the Dog Lead siesta? Should that tent be known by any Ranger to be shaken if needed?

  • I know several of your lovely dogs personally, but please take into account there may be around 100 volunteers on site insgesamt. Pictures of humans+dog AND the super visible number I find good ideas. As contact info, name AND camp/free camping spot, plus a tlf number is useful.

  • So far from me. Thank you for opening such an interesting conversation

Cris

Cris June 6th, 2021 14:50

  • When I striked Rangers Headquarters last time, we had:

– 21 (+ 4-5) Walkie Talkies

– 12 (+ 1?) Walkie charger

– 13 Walkie earplugs

Which went into a closed separate box, that I handed to the site lead lead (oder, @CJ Yetman ?) I don't know were that box is now, tho.

The uncertainty about the numbers is due to the fact, that some radios were still in use, when I did this.

  • Although we cannot say yet, how many radios we'll exactly require this year, we managed last time with that amount, and there were always several radios charging. I'd say, we have enough for a potential Dog Lead.

  • Important consideration, what CJ mentioned: if you need one radio at any given time, you need actually 2 radios, so the other is charging.

  • Radios Handover: last time, radios were centralized in the Rangers Headquarters, where we kept a list of the radios usage. Everyone having a radio signs up with name there by picking up and return.

    I'd gerne have the name and times of radio use some weeks prior to the event to include the Dog Lead in this list :)

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 6th, 2021 14:11

I can't say for certain... I don't know exactly how many radios we have. I believe they are stored with the Rangers' supplies. Generally speaking, we have had more than were needed at any given time, but you also have to account for some (maybe close to half) need to be charging while the others are being used. Maybe @Cris has an idea of the exact number we have? I think maybe we should consider getting a few more... looks like maybe Welfare will be needing more this year also, I'd like to keep 4 of them specifically at the Site Lead station.

Sunniva

Sunniva June 6th, 2021 13:56

Thanks for putting this into perspective as a Site Lead @CJ Yetman! Sounds completely reasonable to me. I agree with your judgement here, and will keep that in mind when communicating our agreements, guidelines and protocols with the other Responsible Humans bringing their dogs to Kiez Burn.

Sunniva

Sunniva June 6th, 2021 13:53

@CJ Yetman: Is there a surplus radio that the Dog Lead could have on them throughout the event?

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 6th, 2021 13:25

Some interesting questions/scenarios raised here. To add some color, here's how I would deal with all of these situations as a Site Lead assuming there were no specific rules about the situation....

The responsible human being for a dog is 100% responsible, therefore anything that the dog does I would treat as something the human did themselves, and approach a solution with that, e.g.

  • if a dog was brought to an area where people were hanging out and started barking at people, someone was particularly frightened by it and someone one else on their behalf asked the responsible human if they would take the dog a way but the responsible human said something like "it's ok, she doesn't bite... she's actually really nice" and then didn't take the dog away from the area, and then eventually that story got to me.... I would treat that as if the responsible human was aggressively frightening people and refused to back away from people who asked them to leave them alone, which would probably put them dangerously close to an eviction

  • if a dog was frequently barking at people while walking around the site and we had received multiple reports of it, I would treat that as if the responsible human was aggressively frightening people, and although they may had not necessarily broken any consent rules by persisting with specific people, their behaviour had become problematic and it would need to be addressed

  • if a dog bit someone or otherwise physically harmed someone, I would treat that as if the responsible human had physically harmed someone out of negligence

  • it could also go the other way, e.g. if a person harmed or mistreated a dog, I would treat that as if they had done the harm or mistreatment to the responsible human (assuming the responsible human was being responsible and was with the dog during the incident)

Maybe that gives a sense of where I'd be coming from. Happy to add more detail or respond to specific questions about that.

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 6th, 2021 13:07

what do you want to know about radio?

Sunniva

Sunniva June 6th, 2021 11:15

Hi Remy! Thank you for asking all these great and considerate questions and addressing so many important details.

Safety of the Animal

  • As Dog Lead, I'll be connecting all the Responsible Humans and do my best to ensure that we are equipped to help each other out in the event of a severe incident.

  • I agree that dogs should be supervised to some extent at any given time, and that when safely guarded and in an enclosure, one Responsible Human could supervise more than 2 dogs. I'll change this in our proposed agreements.

  • I'll develop a protocol for missing dogs and other unfortunate incidents and make sure these are also shared with Rangers and Site Leads. Because the dogs will be supervised at any given time, we hope to avoid any unwanted escalation.

  • There are 6 vet practices surrounding the Kiez Burn site and all at 20-40 minutes driving distance. Werner Mengel Tierarzt (Eichenweg 5) is open 24/7 and is a 33 minute drive away. I'll prepare a list of vets and numbers to call that I'll carry with me.

Safety of Participants

  • Dog Lead will be instructing the Responsible Humans about our agreements and guidelines prior to the event. I'll be making it very clear that dogs come second to meeting the needs of other humans in physical areas and activities. I'll make it a rule that whenever someone voices a concern or wish, this shall be respected without any further questions. I'm positive that those of us who'll be having our dogs with us will do our best to be considerate in this regard. I will add this to our agreements listed above.

  • Our goal is to have this proposal decided upon within next Friday, so that we have time to focus on developing guidelines and protocols and communicating these well. Ideally this will be included in the handbook and on any info boards as well as at the gate. Similarly to how camps can mark their areas as "not suitable for kids", I hope to have the same markers for dogs.

  • If there is unclarity about whether an area or installation is dog-friendly, Dog Lead will be responsible to check in with those involved.

  • If an incident occurs where a dog has caused fear or harm during the event, such an incident shall be handled and mediated by the Dog Lead. Depending on severity, Site Lead will make the final call, and the dog and their Responsible Human must leave the event. We will develop protocols for worst case scenarios as well as for milder incidents, and these should be cleared with Site Lead & Ranger Lead prior to the event. I'll update this in the agreements.

Resources required from Kiez Burn

  • Dog Lead will make sure that all protocols, agreements and guidelines for dogs at Kiez Burn is available and communicated to Gate, Welfare, First Aid, Site Leads and Rangers. I'll update this in the agreements.

  • I hope that Dog Lead will have access to a radio/walkie talkie in order to be available at any given time. If not, we might have to depend on phone service for this first test run.

I hope that clears up most of your remarks @Remy Schneider! Let me know if anything is still unclear.

Question: Who do I talk to about radios/walkie talkies? @Franzi? @CJ Yetman?

Sunniva

Sunniva June 6th, 2021 10:12

Hi @Bee! Thanks for the correction on Safety Protocols and for voicing these questions.

  • I'll be volunteering as this year's Dog Lead!

  • As Dog Lead, I will be instructing the Responsible Humans about our agreements and guidelines prior to the event. I'll be making it very clear that dogs come second to meeting the needs of other humans in physical areas and activities. I'll make it a rule that whenever someone voices a concern or wish, this shall be respected without any further questions. I'm positive that those of us who'll be having our dogs with us will do our best to be considerate in this regard. I will add this to our agreements listed above.

  • I'm planning on making a list of recommendations including taking our dogs out for long walks every day, bringing a few extra toys, giving a lot of positive reinforcements, and what signs to look out for in noticing distress in our dogs. Even for experienced dog owners, I imagine it can be nice with an extra reminder.

  • I'll be in close contact with all dog owners throughout the event, and I'll do daily check-ins to see how things are going and to collect feedback for this test run.

Remy Schneider

Remy Schneider June 6th, 2021 08:58

Hey all - really nice proposal - and super cool that you are so thoughtfully challenging this old rule. It was put in place mostly because it was easy - it seems like you all are really taking lots of responsibility which is what we were lacking in a decision to allow dogs onsite for the burn (dogs have always been allowed on site during build and strike).

I have a few thoughts - my input coming from I wrote the "no dogs" rule in the first place.

Safety of the Animal

  • There seems to be a conflicting statement --> Point 6 "One human can be a Responsible Human for a maximum of two dogs at a time if necessary" and then Point 7 "Camps and Responsible Humans can create their own designated areas for dogs either with crates or fence structures where the dogs can play or rest safely and unsupervised."

    Point 6: Is there a reason why you want to cap the # of dogs someone can watch at 2? Thinking that A) a dog walker handles more than 2 dogs often, and B) when someone is watching e.g., kids at kinderkiez it's often more than two... which leads me to point 7: Does this mean dogs can be left unsupervised? I think that a person needs to be watching/responsible for dogs at basically all times to avoid injury/distress to dog and/or human.

    Would you consider changing the max. # of dogs that can be watched by someone, but always have the dogs supervised? I worry that a "secure enclosure" might not be that secure after day 3 when the dog who has spent a bunch of time there figures out how to escape. Or someone sees the dog in there, wants to interact with the dog, and accidentally lets them out (or even just decides to move the structure/open the crate for their own purposes. )

  • Have you considered what will happen if a dog is in a dangerous situation? Will this become the responsibility of the Rangers? (Please also see resources required from Kiez Burn). What if someone leaves a dog in a hot place (car, tent, crate that move into direct sun)? What if the dog were to escape and become injured, or go missing? We have protocols for humans - I assume the dog owners will self-organize?

  • We will not have a vet onsite - how will you determine that your dog is under too much stress and/or otherwise unfit to continue being at the event?

Safety of Participants

  • It has been brought up a few times, but I don't see an answer specifically to this (only something vague about dog density in Berlin): What will you do in situations where people are uncomfortable with dogs and those dogs are in close proximity? Say you are at a workshop with your dog, someone doesn't like dogs/feel comfortable, will the dog owner always be expected to be the ones who leave?

  • How will you inform participants and or Kieze/Camps that dogs will be onsite, and they have the choice to make their spaces dog friendly or not - and that participants have the right to voice their objection to physical proximation with a dog?

  • Stressful situations can arise - what will you do if your dog accidentally hurts someone? Does the dog have to leave site immediately (I assume for the human they will rely on services on site, and then Dog Lead will mediate?)


Resources required from Kiez Burn

  • What exactly are the resources that will be required from Kiez Burn to facilitate this experiment? Right now I see that rangers will be informed of the dog owner/dog and perhaps receive a pairing picture of the two --> "we will only include other leads in the event of a severe incident." I think that this is not super fleshed out yet, because of course other people need to be informed (camp leads, gate, participants through comms, etc) and of course people on site will need a little information (welfare, first aid, rangers, etc)? I love that it appears there will be no additional burden for the KB services or volunteers, but I also find this lack of information circulation quite concerning.

  • What are the steps if someone reports a problem with a dog to say Welfare or a Ranger? Does this always go to the dog lead on site? How will this person be found at all times that there could be an incident?

Thanks again for bringing this up - I want to point out again that I am SUPER SUPPORTIVE of your proposal in general and I hope that it is successful! I don't see any major blockers at all the way you have listed things out. I hope that you will consider the questions above not to be nit-picky, but to address specific incidents as they can arise. I saw you mention Borderland as an example that allows dogs - I think this is a trend as more and more festivals do allow animals. But there can be LOTS of challenges too - Nowhere for example initially allowed dogs and then revoked that and banned them. So it goes both ways. Wishing you the best <3

Bee

Bee June 5th, 2021 14:33

Hey, Franzi is now the lead for the Saftey Protocols. :) here are my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Amazing work on the proposal. Will one of you 3 proposers be taking the role on as Dog Lead or will we outsource this role to the community?

I echo Franzi's concern about those who are fearful of dogs, but also would like to believe in the self reliance that if someone is not comfortable they can make this known. (which brings up a little bit of though on inclusion. Does the person uncomfortable need to leave the group space, or do Responsible Humans assume this by default? Or perhaps proactively ensure check ins)?

The leash & safe play pen area sound like good measures to keep most people safe and dogs happy. I would trust the dog lead & owners to also make the call if their pet is clearly very distressed in some way to remove them from site. Given that they may act in unpredictable ways which could lead to filing an incident report, as well as for the well being of the animal.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 5th, 2021 11:22

Thanks for bringing up all questions, answering quickly to some of them not much time to do a nice writing. So o my understanding:

  1. Dog owners do register and dog leads arrange the signup and control vaxx, registration etc, picture of owner and dog to give to rangers to easier localize dog+owner by the way they look. Dogs could have a very visible number tagged too.

  2. max amount proposed this year as try out: 6 dogs

  3. ppl not comfortable around dogs will probably see more dogs on the streets than at freiland. However, we hear them; dogs will be on leash or in a fenced area arranged and afforded by dog owners and approved safety by dog lead. ( size of crate/installation is secure and dog cannot scape or jump out)

  4. As ppl with kids, when going party or for a shift, they find someone responsible for their kids on-site, or they just stay put, same modality here with dogs.

  5. this burn is not too loud as far as I know

Franzi

Franzi June 5th, 2021 08:23

wow, this is such a wonderful by the book advice process! so great to see all the different aspects you discussed, gathered data from and thought through. love it!

One qq:

  • will we ask humans to register their dogs as part of the sign up? how do we do this? who controls that doggo has an insurance?

  • what is the max amount of dogs we will allow on site?

  • what is with doggos during build and strike? (cuz responsible human cant be dog responsible when they are working 24/7 on build/strike, or?)

  • will you also check if doggos have their vaccination in check? especially for coming outside of Germany. (I know its required in Germany). So in case someone gets bit there is no chance to catch rabies etc. Which would be a huge liability for Kiez Burn eV

My two concerns are here:

  • A lot of people not comfortable around animals, are scared/afraid of dogs. This can be really stressful especially when in alternate states.

  • My worry is that a burn is too long, too intense, too loud (I guess thats not a problem this year), too much stimulus etc. I know you can say the same for tiny humans but kids can wear noise canceling headphones, can communicate their needs, have activities where they can be entertained - etc

  • I know nowhere banned dogs again after they allowed them because (one reason) it was too stressful for people that were afraid of dogs etc -> have you checked with someone from nowhere what their learnings were?

otherwise, I wish you good luck with your advice process and that we find the best solution for all doggos, humans and kiez burn ❤️❤️

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 5th, 2021 08:08

Id like to add: the deadline 11th of June is because in case this proposal goes through, we need to work on integrating these on the safety protocols and make sure all is in line. On the other hand, If the proposal doesn't go through, some people might not even go to the event, or will have to resolve what to do with the dog during that time.