talk.kiezburn.org
June 4th, 2021 13:07

[Decision] Dogs at Kiez Burn 2021

Sunniva
Sunniva Public Seen by 182

Last edited: 18.6.21

A decision has been made

  • Who made the decision: @Sunniva, @Veroca R. Sala & @Hanna-Maija (Animal)

  • When the decision was made: 11.6.21

  • Decision Summary: We will have a Dog Lead + up to 6 dogs at Kiez Burn this year! Following a week of community engagement and discussion about our proposal, and after getting in touch with all the leads and positions affected and adjusting our suggested agreements based on the feedback we have received, we have decided that we have sufficient support and agreement to give this test run a try. We will now move forward with organising everything for this to happen as smooth as possible.

  • If you have any concerns about this proposal, please reach out to any of us or comment in this thread!

  • If you would like to bring your dog to Kiez Burn 2021, please get in touch!

💕🐶💕

Short summary:

This advice process is about a proposal for a test run with up to 6 dogs accompanying their humans for Kiez Burn 2021.

Proposers

@Sunniva, @Veroca R. Sala & @Hanna-Maija (Animal)

We have all been engaged in the Kiez Burn community at different levels for several years and we are all happy dog parents in the default world. For this year’s Kiez Burn, we would like to propose a test run with having our dogs accompany us and possibly 3 more humans onsite for the duration of the event.

 

Information gathered before posting

  • We know that Freiland allows dogs on their land, and that the land usually is an area used for dog walks. Unlike many other burn environments, Kiez Burn offers a particularly dog-friendly environment at Freiland.

  • Some of us already brought our dogs to the Kiez Burn Campout in September 2020 and made some great experiences and fruitful lessons from that.

  • Borderland has allowed dogs to their events at Hedeland. 

  • In an advice process in a Facebook post for Borderlings in 2018, a poll was created with the question: “Should dogs be allowed or should we follow the lines of Burning Man and not allow pets at all?”. As a result, 154 people voted “Ban dogs completely - this event is not a suitable environment for pets”, while a majority of 265 people voted for either “Allow dogs” (121 votes), “I don’t have the right to ban other people’s expression of joy, community and love” (78 votes), “I do not mind either alternative” (37 votes), or “Allow dogs BUT on a leash at all times and kept away from crowded spaces” (29 votes). Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/theborderland/permalink/1853599764659448

  • In the case of protecting potential allergic humans, we know that allergens from dogs are commonly spread in indoor environments. Because Kiez Burn takes place outdoors, it is our understanding that the risk of allergic reactions are severely decreased. In having restricted areas for dogs, and providing areas and spaces completely free of dogs, we believe that any allergic burner can peacefully coexist with our dogs during Kiez Burn. Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/pet-allergy/symptoms-causes/syc-20352192

People/roles most affected by this proposal + with the most knowledge and experience relevant to this proposal

  • Safety protocols: @CJ Yetman and @Franzi

  • Rangers: @Jessie and @Cris

  • The community

  • Insurance: @Holger Wessels

  • Site planning: @Cairn (Clément)

@Sunniva will check-in with the leads tagged above if we don't hear back from them within the next week.

The proposal

Background

Freiland is a beautiful dog-friendly area, and the Kiez Burn community consists of many passionate dog owners and friends of dogs. For Kiez Burn 2021, we propose to implement the following agreements for dogs to accompany their humans throughout the event. We see this year’s burn as a great opportunity to test run bringing dogs to Kiez Burn. Allowing some dogs onsite would be an inclusive alteration for some of our community members, and it could make all of us better equipped to welcome service dogs in the future.

Proposal & implementation

These are the agreements we propose in order to allow dogs onsite during Kiez Burn 2021.

Agreements:

  1. There will be a Dog Lead present and available via radio throughout the event. The Dog Lead will be the point of contact in any incident involving a dog onsite, and takes full responsibility in resolving matters, alternatively together with other leads, depending on what the given circumstance requires.

  2. All dogs accompanying their humans shall be registered with the Dog Lead beforehand. This first year a maximum of 6 dogs will be allowed. We will only allow vaccinated dogs with “Hundehaftpflicht” insurance. No female dogs in heat. All dogs will be clearly marked and will carry either electrical lights or reflectives at nighttime.

  3. All dogs shall be supervised by a Responsible Human at any given time, and on leash when walking around onsite. The responsibilities of a Responsible Human includes making sure the dog only goes where it’s allowed to go, collecting dog M(p)OOP and removing it appropriately from site, and covering their dogs needs (shielding from loud sounds/agitated humans, providing sufficient water and food etc.) Dog Lead will provide appropriate and mindful guidelines for all Responsible Humans prior to the event.

  4. Dogs are not to be allowed in the First Aid Tent, Welfare or any kitchen areas. Camps and art installations can choose if their area is dog-friendly or not. Quiet hours also apply to dogs.

  5. One human can be a Responsible Human for several dogs at a time if necessary, for example when helping other Responsible Humans while they do their respective volunteer shifts.

  6. Designated areas for dogs in enclosed spaces and structures where the dogs can play or rest safely and unleashed while supervised by at least one Responsible Human can be provided. Dog Lead will make sure that these designated areas are sufficiently secured.

  7. Dogs come second to meeting the needs of other humans in physical areas and activities throughout the event. Concerns, wishes and needs shall be respected without any further questions in all areas that are not designated areas for dogs.

  8. All Responsible Humans are completely liable for the actions of their dog. If an incident occurs where a dog have caused fear or harm during the event, such an incident is initially the responsibility of the Dog Lead. Depending on severity, Site Lead will make the final call, and the Responsible Human and their dog must leave the event. Protocols for these scenarios will be cleared with Site Lead and Ranger Lead prior to the event.

  9. Dog Lead will make sure that all protocols, agreements and guidelines as well as a bullet list with crucial details for dogs at Kiez Burn is available and communicated to Gate, Welfare, First Aid, Site Leads and Rangers. A list with contact details, photos of dogs and their Responsible Humans will also be provided.

  10. Dog Lead will have close contact with all Responsible Humans prior to and throughout the event. Dog Lead is also responsible to collect feedback, experiences and register incidents involving dogs at Kiez Burn. In order to summarise this test run, a report will be presented to the community sometime after the event. If we manage to go through with this test run without any serious incidents, complaints or objections, we propose to continue with our arrangement in the future, and adjust the Kiez Burn regulation excluding dogs from our event accordingly.

Who would implement this proposal

@Sunniva and @Hanna-Maija (Animal) will volunteer as this year’s Dog Leads. @Veroca R. Sala will support when necessary.

When this proposal would be implemented

We would like to close the advice process within a week’s time: Friday 11th of June at 15.00. The proposal would be set in action immediately after.

The cost (time, money, effort, etc.) of this proposal

Our proposal should have no direct impact on the finances of Kiez Burn. In regards to time and effort, our goal is to be as independent as possible from other functions during the burn, and that we will only include other leads in the event of a severe incident.

Dog Lead will make sure that all protocols, agreements and guidelines as well as a bullet list with crucial details for dogs at Kiez Burn is available and communicated to Gate, Welfare, First Aid, Site Leads and Rangers. A list with contact details, photos of dogs and their Responsible Humans will also be provided.

What some advantages of this proposal are

Our understanding is that this proposal is in line with the Kiez Burn principles, and that it especially honors the principles of Inclusion, Immediacy and Radical Self-Expression. We would be able to welcome and include community members together with their canine companions.

What some disadvantages of this proposal are

At the time of making this proposal, Kiez Burn has a strict NO PETS POLICY (with the exception of service dogs) that is listed under “inclusion” in one of the eleven Kiez Burn principles. The goal of a test run with dogs accompanying their humans to Kiez Burn in 2021 is an alteration to the no pets policy in the Kiez Burn principles IF this year’s test run is successful.

 

Decision

We would like to make a decision about this proposal by next Friday 11th of June.

Thank you for reading through!

Are there any disadvantages you think we should consider? Any advantages we didn't think of yet? Do you think we forgot to consider something crucial? We are curious to receive your feedback on this proposal within the next week!

Mi Go

Mi Go
Abstain
August 6th, 2021 14:54

Speaking as an animal lover, I feel a lot of compassion for Kudra and his friends. On a personal level, I do hope the best for him and Aly, and I recognise that it's an emotional topic.

From a place of care I do recommend finding a solution that allows Aly to go to the burn for a couple of nights while Kudra is cared for offsite.

Mi Go

Mi Go
Disagree
August 6th, 2021 14:52

Speaking as an animal lover, I feel a lot of compassion for Kudra and his friends. On a personal level, I do hope the best for him and Aly, and I recognise that it's an emotional topic.

From a place of care I do recommend finding a solution that allows Aly to go to the burn for a couple of nights while Kudra is cared for offsite.

Sunniva

Sunniva August 6th, 2021 11:50

I’m out of capacity to offer a mediation process until after the event, and I can assure you the same is true for @Hanna-Maija (Animal). We definitely won’t have a mediation without you. If it’s your preference I can help organize for a third party to be present when we do finally find an appropriate and agreeable time to talk. Unfortunately we cannot help you any further right now. We still hope that you will find a way to enjoy this year’s Kiez Burn nevertheless!

A

Aly August 6th, 2021 11:36

Hello! I am writing this to clear up miscommunication and hopes that if you speak about my dog in the future, that you can abstain from saying things that are not true or out of context. But please, just do not speak about my dog is my preference. : )
I preface this by saying: I am a VERY thorough person, and I plan for worst case scenarios in case it is needed. I wrote you to let you know that even in the worst worst worst worst case scenario (that I wouldn't imagine happening in 30 million years), that I had a plan of action. My dog is not dying within a week. This is written incredibly out of context and paints things in an especially bad light.

1. Yes, Kudra does have cancer, we were told that she has less than a year to live

2. She does has incredibly low levels of activity since she was 3 months old, and sleeps 90% of the day (quite normal for large breed dogs). I found that she is even more picky about having a soft surface, but otherwise her activity levels are about the same (/ not significantly changed over the last 5+ years).

3. She also always got hot easily before. She cannot walk more than about 20 minutes without overheating (and when I say overheating, I just mean... she wants to lay down and rest, she is not suffering heat stroke, dying, or greatly suffering) compared to about 40 minutes - 1 hour several years ago. The ambient Berlin temperature is more than acceptable for her.

4. Kudra cannot take public transportation because she did not grow up with it. She is not trained to be on public transportation and is fearful of it. This causes unnecessary stress, therefore I avoid it.

5. As stated before, she has always had low levels of energy for her entire life. She still comes on walks with me every day, but her preference is (and has always been) to cuddle and sleep unless there is something very exciting.

6. Kudra's mouth can still open, she can still eat food, and she can still drink water. Her mouth cannot open very wide due to her terminal illness. I mentioned this to you to assure you that she would be physically unable to bite someone.

7. I wrote to demonstrate to you that I am prepared in case of absolute worst case scenarios, because I like to be 100% prepared as I cannot know the future with certainty and neither can you. :D

A

Aly August 6th, 2021 11:12

Unfortunately, i am not really comfortable going to the burn without mediation towards the beginning of the event. But i respect your wishes. I would greatly appreciate if you all did not discuss about me or my dog at the burn even if i will not attend.

Sunniva

Sunniva August 6th, 2021 10:02

Thank you @Professor Kaos.

I would be happy to volunteer my time to talk with @Aly and @Carnelian King sometime after the burn. Just let me know if that's something you both would want. I'm online and available again from the 23rd of August. You have my contact details and invitation to reach out.

Professor Kaos

Professor Kaos August 6th, 2021 09:51

I'm reaching out in response to the troubling situation that has occurred with the whole 'Dog's at Kiez Burn' experiment.

I understand this has been confusing and troubling for everyone who has been apart of the discussion. It is clear there has been some miscommunication and/or misunderstandings during the discussion, and it is not my place to decide on where those faults lie.

In the light of a lack of any evidence to either parties claim, and with the event being so close and everyone's time and energy being so limited and focused on much more dangerous and pressing matters, we do not have enough time to go through a full second advice process to allow Kudra to join Kiez Burn. The people that need to give it the time and energy simply don't have that available in the next 2 days that would be required.

As such, the board voted on whether we can or should interfere with this situation or not, and decided the we should not interfere, and as such we cannot make any further changes to our current safety protocols and regulations, which have been recently finalized and the site leads have been trained upon. That means that we can't support an exception to the Dog proposal, which has been active for months, we will respect the decision of the Dog Leads, and the general rule of 'No pets at Kiez Burn' applies. Which unfortunately means Kudra cannot be welcomed at Kiez Burn this year.

In remaining neutral on the topic, the previously well-executed Dog proposal stands and is set in place in the on-site protocols.

I understand this will be heavy blow for Kudra's humans, and I send this message solemnly and with empathy. And I hope that everyone can empathize that this decision was not taken lightly, in spite of all the other craziness we are having to deal with this close to being on site.

I am also aware that this decision might affect some participants participation in Kiez Burn. And have already reached out to provide whatever support I can to assist in their continued inclusion, at both the Burn, and in the Camp we share.

<OPINION - Do with as you wish>

I would finish by highly recommending that the affected parties who have all felt harm throughout this recent discussion to consider following our conflict escalation process in order to clear the air. Whilst the decision can't be changed or overturned at this stage, by addressing the emotional harm all parties have felt, directly and respectfully, may make space for a beautiful growth experience at the burn we are all working so hard to make happen.

If you believe a mediator would be preferred I am happy to volunteer, but I look up to all of you as skilled and experienced mediators and non-violent communicators in your own right, when talking face-to-face. And as such, I do not believe it necessary to jump to phase 3 (mediated discussion) of the conflict escalation process. But I'm happy to assist in any way I am able.

Much love to you all.

@Aly @Carnelian King @Hanna-Maija (Animal) @Sunniva

Sunniva

Sunniva
Abstain
August 6th, 2021 09:47

I'm of the opinion that a dog as sick and immobile as Aly describes Kudra does not belong at a burn, and I was genuinely curious to see if people in the community disagrees with this. I'm using my vote to abstain and share that without engaging relevant leads and getting them aboard with your proposal, I don't see you getting this proposal through despite a few passionate and well-intended friends voicing their support.

Professor Kaos

Professor Kaos
Disagree
August 6th, 2021 09:40

My apologies, but we can't have another counter-proposal so close to site. It is an unreasonable weight to place on other very stressed and over-worked volunteers to make an exception. If this practice was encouraged, the whole advice process that we are trying to develop and embody would come deeper into question.

I hope you can understand my position

K

Kitt
Abstain
August 6th, 2021 02:11

Asked to vote, would like to abstain w/comment. I don't want to be part of the decision-making process. (I am also not a 'dog person.') It's ridiculous to apply 'radical inclusion' to an animal, &the principles aren't 'rules' that can be broken. If that's the case, we also cannot ask the consent of the dog. Appreciate the safeguarding measures proposed by participants on dog-roles and the intention of the dog-owning participant, and wishing all well in the outcome.

Mi Go

Mi Go August 5th, 2021 17:05

If I understand you correctly, the whole proposal disrespects, and does not take into account people with a dog phobia (but you yourself do not have such a phobia). Allowing dogs at all disrespects people with phobias and lacks accountability. Despite the participation of people with phobias. Despite a well-formed and vouched-for proposal that went through many rounds of feedback leading to a trial implementation of a very limited group of dogs controlled at all times, with explicit human veto power in any space, and an immediate assumption of responsibility and accountability by responsible humans for any issues, etc.

Bee

Bee August 5th, 2021 17:01

Inclusion is shown here through active discussion, listening to feedback and compromise. There is nothing wrong with having a different opinion but the Dog Proposal/Leads specifically asked for these opinions 2 months ago when they were creating the protocols to shape them and with time to reflect on the feedback they received to consider what harm reduction could be done to make humans with phobias or concerns feel comfortable.

DU

[deactivated account] August 5th, 2021 16:41

How does allowing dogs respect people with dog phobias? Can I have a different opinion here or not? And with this I will eject myself from this conversation as it seems I cannot think the way I do here Bye!!!!

Jessie

Jessie August 5th, 2021 16:34

Printed out one in b/w but we sure take a nice colored one as well :-) @Sunniva @Cris

Melinda Gonzalez

Melinda Gonzalez
Agree
August 5th, 2021 16:17

Mi Go

Mi Go August 5th, 2021 15:34

Complaining in this context as others have said, isn't really helpful. IF the thrust of the complaint is the feedback "if any dogs can come, all dogs should be able to come" or "no dogs should come because some people have phobias", 1) it should have been offered as feedback weeks ago, and 2) the dog leads have reasonably and explicitly addressed those, and as far as I can tell, remain very open to hearing such concerns

"if any dogs can come, all dogs should be able to come" : Kiez Burn has a no-pets policy and a trial is proposed, with a limited number of dogs. They are aware that a limited test is the best approach to possibly opening the event to dogs in the future.

"no dogs should come because some people have phobias": The dog leads are very aware that some people have phobias, and that human needs come first at a Burn. For example, in the proposal:

"Dogs come second to meeting the needs of other humans in physical areas and activities throughout the event. Concerns, wishes and needs shall be respected without any further questions..."

Now I am aware, living in Berlin, that there are a ton of dog owners that do not really subscribe to that ethic - it is common to encounter unleashed dogs running at you, the dog owners assuming that it is my issue if I am not "cool with it" etc - and I am not even phobic. How, without some framework of cooperation, communication, and limits, can dog leads ensure that every responsible human at the Burn will comply with that ethic, let alone agree to it? This proposal absolutely respects people with phobias and it seems an uncritical complaint to suggest otherwise

Burning Man takes place in a desert where the weather is often violent. It is in the middle of Nowhere, 100K+ people in an area of 7 square miles. Kiez Burn takes place in a tiny green wonderland that is partly wooded, and is equally tiny in by most measures.

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman August 5th, 2021 15:31

Guess we have very different sense of what it means to “take into account” something. I see explicit discussion of this concern, and a person who said they were afraid of dogs participating.

DU

[deactivated account] August 5th, 2021 14:26

Fair enough. This is when I read the comment so this is why I shared my view only now.

Cris

Cris August 5th, 2021 14:22

@Andrea Very legitimate point and valuable feedback. However, as you already read and wrote, an advice process with enough time and a decision have been made.

I feel this comment one day before build starts only brings anger and frustation.

At this point, desagreements should be brought to the Arena!

DU

[deactivated account] August 5th, 2021 14:15

@CJ Yetman I did. And still believe the decision does not take into account people who have fobia for dogs.

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman August 5th, 2021 14:06

@Andrea have you actually read the discussion here? Seems disingenuous to suggest that these concerns have not been thought about.

DU

[deactivated account] August 5th, 2021 13:53

Hi Sunniva. I just believe it is a very bad idea to have pets at a Burn. How about I bring my snake along? SOme people fear dogs as some other fear snakes (not me btw) . Food for thought

DU

[deactivated account] August 5th, 2021 13:51

@Mi Go with all due respect, yes, I am complaining as I do not see why dogs should be around at a Burn. Have you seen any dogs at Burning Man? There might be a well thought reason since they have been doing that thing for more than 35 years. SOme people have a fobia for dogs, and this decision basically does not take them into account (I am not one of the btw)

DU

[deactivated account] August 5th, 2021 13:42

Will do thanks.

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman
Disagree
August 5th, 2021 12:55

Kiez Burn has always banned dogs, so that’s the default. The only difference with that this year is that a few people went through a long, genuine advice process and are taking full responsibility for a pilot project structured and implemented in a way they feel comfortable with. In order for it to work for Kudra, a similar advice process would need to happen, and honestly one week before the event is not sufficient time to genuinely do that… a quick poll is not adequate.

Hanna-Maija (Animal)

Hanna-Maija (Animal) August 5th, 2021 11:18

Hi @Andrea, please come to Deine Muddi camp and find me (Animal). Happy to offer you a drink for some face to face feedback.

Mi Go

Mi Go August 5th, 2021 10:40

@Andrea with all due respect, it is a misunderstanding of consensual doocracy and the principle of radical inclusion to assume any dog should be welcome, particularly during a trial in which people have worked hard to draft a proposal, to take community input, and take responsibility for the outcomes. may as well take the same logic to "all vans should be free to park wherever they want" or "no permits needed for art cars" or "camps can play any sound as loud as they want whenever they want". You are just complaining.

Sunniva

Sunniva August 5th, 2021 10:26

Hi @Andrea! Thank you for sharing. I'm not sure if you saw that we are only doing a test run this year, hence the capped number of maximum 6 dogs onsite which turned into only 3 dogs in the end. We've never had dogs onsite during the main event before and we want to start out carefully. We'll take your concerns into consideration for the summary of this test run.

DU

[deactivated account] August 5th, 2021 10:20

Hi. Decision has been made I understand, but still I believe you guys should stop looking at the Borderland as if it was the sacred Grail.
First of all allowing only "6 dogs" is against the radical inclusion principle. Either you allow all dogs or none. AS SIMPLE AS THAT. Then you might consider the fact that even if people love dogs in general (I do), some of them don't and some others definitely don't want to have a dog around at a festival (that is me). If you have a dog, you can also find a dogsitter for the event (easier than a babysitter) and maybe think about the fact that your joy of bringing the dog along, might actually be the NOT JOY of someone else.

But anyways, decision has been made. 1 principle broken from the organization, 10 to go.

Caroline

Caroline
Disagree
August 5th, 2021 09:43

While I notice you're wanting to make this right for Kurda, I believe you've steped in too late for everybody involved to be at peace with what's happening.

The dog leads tried to make this right and Kurda's human failed and now we're one week away from the burn and everyone is getting ready. It's too late. It is not ok to endengered a long planned trial. If anything goes wrong with Kurda, all the dog and their humans will suffer from that in the future.

Sven Schulte-Rummel

Sven Schulte-Rummel
Agree
August 5th, 2021 06:28

Jaina Hirai

Jaina Hirai
Disagree
August 5th, 2021 06:12

Nothing personal against Kendra or her peeps, but I feel that only dogs approved by the dog lead process should be on site.

Erin Jeavons-Fellows

Erin Jeavons-Fellows
Agree
August 4th, 2021 15:08

#alldogslivesmatter. If they are able to look after it, convinced of its ability to be at the event and care for it in the state they are aware that it is in, i don't see it as a problem. I am actually opposed to the entire idea of dogs at Kiez burn, but the initial proposal for me was created and closed too fast for me to have a say. I find dogs annoying and disruptive at festivals. But if this is an experiment, then the dogs can come and are the responsibility of the owner.

Sunniva

Sunniva August 4th, 2021 13:32

All good. I'll find a solution to get it printed and handed out for the Rangers and anyone who wants it 😊

Cris

Cris August 4th, 2021 13:15

Mist! I just came back from the copy shop. I think I already ask this mehrmals but.., could the Ranger Station have this printed out? Thank you for the poster, looks great!

Sunniva

Sunniva August 4th, 2021 10:24

This year we will have a small handful of rescue pups joining our adventure at Freiland ✨ These 3 dogs + 2 human Dog Leads will be part of this year's trial run for dogs at Kiez Burn!


Unlike many other burn environments, Kiez Burn offers a particularly dog-friendly environment at Freiland. The dogs will be supervised by a Responsible Human at any given time, and on leash when walking around onsite. Dogs will not be allowed in the First Aid Tent, Welfare or any kitchen areas. Camps and art installations can choose if their area is dog-friendly or not. You will find the detailed agreements and guidelines for this at the Gate onsite and on Talk!


The Dog Leads are responsible to collect feedback, experiences and register incidents involving dogs at Kiez Burn. In order to summarise this test run, a report will be presented to the community sometime after the event. If we manage to go through with this test run without any serious incidents, complaints or objections, we propose to continue with having dogs at our burn in the future, and adjust the Kiez Burn no pets policy to allow our canine companions in years to come 💕


If you see a dog onsite, please always ask before trying to pet or feed them, no matter how cute and fluffy they look! If you have any concerns about dogs at Kiez Burn, please reach out to Dog Leads Sunniva or Hanna-Maija. With a decent amount of responsibility, considerations and do-ocracy and plenty of fluffy love, we're excited to give this a try!

Sunniva

Sunniva August 4th, 2021 09:44

In that case your best option might be to simply start a new thread and copy paste the information.

A

Aly
Agree
August 4th, 2021 09:38

I am very biased as Kudra's human. However, we were very much looking forward to our first burn. : ) My dog is super sweet, not reactive at all, well socialized, and very lazy. She has never bitten or been threatening to anyone in her life. I clean up after her and and am trying to make her last year as awesome as possible.

Carnelian King

Carnelian King August 4th, 2021 09:04

Yes, I am attempting to move the proposal to a new thread as you directed but am not finding it as an option listed here upon clicking these three dots.

Sorry if I made the assumption you hadn't tried your best to communicate, I don't mean to imply you could have done better- just that we would like for the chance to attend not to be taken away from Kudra, and instead the responsibility passed over to us.

Sunniva

Sunniva August 4th, 2021 08:29

Hi @Carnelian King if you go to your proposal post and scroll down to the bottom, you will see three dots aligned in the bottom right corner. If you press them you'll find the option to "Move item" and make a new thread for your proposal. Good luck with that.

I will say this: I told you on the 26th of June that Aly would need to get in contact with us for us to make a final decision. I reached back out again on the 20th of July to say that if Aly still wants to bring their dog, they would need to get in touch with us that week. On the 22nd of July I asked them to suggest a time for a call. On the 27th of July I reminded them that we still need to have a call, and I suggested the following day. Unfortunately, Aly was unable to show up for a call, and at the end of last week I was out of resources to facilitate a call for them. I told them that I’m noticing that I’m out of capacity to engage with their communication style and unreliable tendencies of the short time we’ve been in contact. As this years dog leads, we decided to make a decision based on the information Aly had shared with us up until that point in writing. Aly had told us that their dog is sick and dying, and they had shared many worrying details about the state of Kudra as listed in my comment beneath. Following our decision this Sunday, we expressed to you and Aly that our decision was final and that unfortunately we cannot help you any further.

I understand that we have different perspectives and understandings of the situation. I would appreciate it if we could all do our best not to make any assumptions or overstatements, and to honour each other's time and energy. Thank you.

Carnelian King

Carnelian King August 4th, 2021 07:19

Thank you for your comment Vero. It is clear that you all put a lot of work into planning this trial run for the dogs and want it to go well without too much stress.
 I would like to help facilitate this, while also including our dog.

To clarify what happened with communication, it’s not as simple as was stated.
I thought we were told to receive approval from our Kiez before Kudra was to meet one of the dog leads, then once we did I put Sunniva and Aly in touch (July 7th).

 After this, Aly missed a meeting with Sunniva who did not reach out that she was waiting for this meeting or try to get in contact. When we spoke and I asked if she would be willing to talk to Aly during our last meeting she said no and that Aly’s communication style was so frustrating that she no longer wanted to have anything to do with them.

This lapse in communication was partially to do with having just gotten Kudra’s diagnosis and having been very involved with the Prometheans and getting things ready for our camp. Also my fault for incorrectly realizing that we needed to get approval from the Kiez first and not that they should be put in touch immediately.

The phrase “sick and dying” is also misleading and creates a more simplistic picture than exist.
Kudra is not suffering any symptoms at this point, and although she has only a few months to live this should not affect the quality of her interactions with other Burners- nor be at all obvious to anyone. It is not as if she is throwing up or having heat stroke, she just often looks a bit tired and relaxed.
 
Happy to move our proposal to another thread however, I wanted to bring up how things were from our perspective- as we received this information just a few days ago and are also doing our best to deal with it. 🤞

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala August 3rd, 2021 22:07


Hi all, I can see the urge of bringing Kudra to Kiez Burn. However, I dont think the way this is moving forward is the way we reach decisions.

From the dog team:
I know it looks like Kiez Burn has added a lot of apparently unnecessary bureaucracy to its planning. The reality is, we did plan this trial run for dogs at Kiez Burn in advance. We collected advice, refined the proposal, and reached a decision. Then we created a team, a protocol, and a procedure to allow dogs at the event along with an application process that included the possibility of either admitting or rejecting the dog.

Unfortunately, Kudra has been declined because the paw parent hasn't been able to meet us for a call + Kudra doesn't seem to be in good health or up to the standard the Dog Leads are willing to handle at the event during this trial run.

Now we understand your frustration and you are welcome to propose, seek advice and run the process separately but that would be an independent proposal from this one on this thread.

The Dog Leads have made it clear that they cannot support bringing a sick and dying dog to Kiez Burn, and that they do not want to have a part in this plan.

From a Talk moderation perspective:

@Carnelian King Please move your proposal to a separate, new thread. The initial advice process for a trial run on this thread has been done and it is complete.

In addition, those affected should be tagged to call their attention, here is the process more in detail - I recommend you to take a look into it before pushing forward, so as to reach a legitimate consensual decision: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/9EYZqPrk/the-advice-process

My personal input: I wish the current dog team not to be stressed out so close to the event for which they have worked so hard, they have done already a lot and they have set boundaries on what is that they dont want to take.

I wish for myself to have a relaxed 3 day pre-build after all these months of madness orga, Im not to stand in your way.

I wish you and Kudra the best.

Patsy

Patsy
Agree
August 3rd, 2021 19:53

Kudra's a good dog and she deserves a trip. We've agreed to give her the care she needs and she won't be a trouble to anyone.

I've personally seen her enjoying the company of a large group of people in the park only a few weeks ago, and all agreed she was a pleasure to be around.

It seems to me that voting to allowing her to join us at the Burn would be a benefit to the camp and its members, at no cost to anyone.

A

Ale
Agree
August 3rd, 2021 19:45

Can totally understand both perspectives and where they come from. The proposal seems well thought out and as one of the prometheans I’m really looking forward to our wise and gentle creature spirit in our middle, so that she may feel as loved and included as she deserves. ❤️

I’d love her to soak up all the good energy and vibes. Especially as she seems to be an experienced festival goer ;)

Carnelian King

Carnelian King August 3rd, 2021 19:06

Thank you for this suggestion and your support- we have put together a proposal as you requested. The two of you have done so much work to make this trial run possible and I wish you both a lot of luck with your dogs.

Carnelian King

Carnelian King August 3rd, 2021 19:06

I appreciate your comment, You clearly have thought about this a great deal and this shows a lot of empathy.
If Kudra were in a terminally ill state where she was not able to function, then I think this would be a different story. She's not in a state where she will be anywhere close to being put down.
I can see how you'd be scared of the idea of her dying while people were trying to relax and have a good time, but as she has not yet shown any symptoms and she's meant to live another half a year- it's not an outcome which is likely to occur- especially not suddenly.

Still, I think Aly wishes to spend as much time as possible with her and won't attend if she cannot come.

Carnelian King

Carnelian King
Agree
August 3rd, 2021 18:57

Carnelian King

Carnelian King started a proposal August 3rd, 2021 18:40

Proposal: A Promethean Pup Closed 7:00pm - Friday 6 Aug 2021


Our Proposal

Our friend Aly has been looking forward to bringing their dog Kudra to the burn, and had gotten approval for her to be one of the six dogs there from the dog leads on the 26th of June.

Our camp, the Prometheans, reached consensus with ~35 people to bring her even though they were aware of she has less than one year to live. Kudra was diagnosed with cancer just last month however she is still very alert, mobile, and in good spirits. She has been to many festivals and loves being around people and outside.

The reason I am bringing this up is that we received a verbal agreement that she would be allowed, but the Dog Leads @Sunniva@Hanna-Maija (Animal)   asked us to make our own proposal letting the community know about this situation instead of them taking on the responsibility for her.

We are happy to do so and would like to present you all with our plan. 

This is our protocol for responsibility

We have five people from our camp who will assist Aly in keeping an eye on Kudra while we are at the burn. However she has not yet shown any signs of her deteriorating health in the last month.

We will have a car for her on site if she needs to visit the vet for a check in as well as a plan for one of us who can drive to stay sober each night to make sure she could be taken off site, because this is imporant to us.

Thus we are creating this proposal to make it possible for her to attend, as a final hurrah.

 

Our proposal

  • We bring Kudra along with us to Kiez Burn, and she mostly hangs out with the Prometheans in our camping area except for a few walks

  • We are able to have a 12 year birthday ritual to celebrate her rich life and live like a God among the Prometheans.

  • Kudra provides a calming presence to those who seek chill company

  • We are prepared to follow all guidelines mentioned in the previous dog proposal.

Who would implement this proposal

We create a small dog team within the Promeatheans who will be sure this dog is looked after- this team will be composed of @Aly (Dog Lead), @Carnelian King (Co-lead), Patsy Mcdowell, Sophia Manske & Max

 

Issues to overcome

If Kudra becomes unwell or shows signs of illness our plan will be threefold:
1) Be sure she has had enough food and water
2)  Return her to our personal tents so that she can rest
3)  Drive her to one of the off site vets located within 30 minutes from the site
(thank you to the Dog Leads for finding these resources @Sunniva & @Hanna-Maija (Animal) )

The cost ( Money, time, effort) of this proposal

We have already secured a ride for Kudra and Aly- so the only cost would be to make sure she is marked and illuminated- which we already have the supplies for. The cost will also be us chosing to be more present at the burn and each chosing a night to stay sober, but that is one we are willing to pay in order to have her here.

Closing thoughts

We are 95% certain nothing will happen, as Kudra has not shown any signs of deterioration,
but we wanted to be open about the situation and take responsibility for her health.

We didn't think it was right not to mention it and just let her come to the Burn-
however we just found out two days ago that her sickness was going to result cause this rejection.
We have planned a place in our camp for her to hang out comfortably, and arranged her transportation.
Please allow us to bring her along and make this possible.

We welcome community feedback but due to time constraints we hope to reach a decision by Friday

Results
Agree - 7
Abstain - 3
Disagree - 4
14 people have voted (73%)
Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala August 3rd, 2021 17:20

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala August 3rd, 2021 17:19

HI, am not a current Dog Lead, but I have participated in conversations, meetings and participated in drafting the proposal itself.

I believe the decision made by the dog leads who realized and carried out the dog trail run at Kiez Burn 2021 is thoughtful and aligned with what they (we) have proposed.

We are convinced that if a dog needs a backup plan in case it needs to be euthanized, it does not belong at a burn. As this year's dog leads we cannot support bringing a sick and dying dog to Kiez Burn, and we do not want to have a part in this plan.

This mentioned above is definitely something we /I dont want to experience at the burn.

It is evident that if something like this would happen, I as a human and an animal lover, will not be able to look away.

On a personal level, I want to say to Aly that I feel her concerns and the impact that not bringing Kudra to the event might mean, I also understand you might not be fully aware of how we make the decisions and how we present and carry out ideas at Kiez Burn (Or at least, how we try to!!) But I can assure this advice process for the trial run has followed all protocols.

I am happy to help you find a better place for Kudra during the event or find a dog sitter. I can even offer mine who I trust. Feel free to contact me directly to put you in touch with her.

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman August 3rd, 2021 16:44

Speaking purely from my perspective of Consensual Doocracy, if someone makes a proposal, genuinely goes through the whole process of getting feedback and making adaptations, and is taking responsibility for the result and how it is implemented, etc., etc. then yes, I believe that person has full right to refuse taking on some responsibility that falls outside of what they envisioned and what they feel comfortable with.

Sunniva

Sunniva August 3rd, 2021 16:33

Dear all,

this is a response to the two recent comments in this thread by @Aly and @Carnelian King.

On Sunday we made a final decision not to allow Aly’s dog Kudra to Kiez Burn this year. Unfortunately, Aly was unable to meet our minimum requirement to meet in person or have a call in order to check in with them and give them the approval to bring their dog along for this year’s test run. With the information available to us up until about one week before the event, we saw a need to make a final decision. 

In their written communication, Kudra’s owner Aly shared that their dog has cancer and does not have very long to live. Aly said that Kudra has incredibly low levels of activity, that she sleeps 90% of the day, that she gets overheated very easily, that Kudra is unable to take public transport and is not very mobile, and that she is unable to open her mouth due to her health issues. We were concerned about the welfare of the dog, and we were not assured that the owner could take full responsibility for bringing a terminally ill dog to a burn with everything it involves. 

As this is just a trial run for dogs at this year’s Kiez Burn, it’s important for us that everyone bringing a dog knows each other and/or are open communicators, and that we try and make this experience as pleasant as we can for our dogs and for the humans present. Our implied goal has been to set a good example to the community by responsibly integrating our dogs as a part of the burn. We are convinced that if a dog needs a backup plan in case it needs to be euthanized, it does not belong at a burn. As this year's dog leads we cannot support bringing a sick and dying dog to Kiez Burn, and we do not want to have a part in this plan.

If @Aly, @Carnelian King and the Prometheans want to make a new proposal to allow Kudra to attend as an exceptional event unrelated to this year’s dog trial, we will not stand in the way of that as dog leads.

Your dog leads,

Sunniva & Hanna-Maija

Sunniva

Sunniva August 3rd, 2021 16:25

Edit: I moved my response to a separate comment in the thread that you can find here 👉 https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/D20BEOi4/-decision-dogs-at-kiez-burn-2021/53

A

Aly August 3rd, 2021 16:21

​​

Hello,

I am the human of Kudra. I have been with her since she was a baby and quite a few participants of the burn can vouch for her excellent behaviour.

Here is a video of my dog from today doing tricks (to show that she is in pretty good shape and spirits): https://photos.app.goo.gl/Aj2U1rFQYNW1GJMY8
She can also regularly walk with me ~20 minutes.

Due to some miscommunication and confusion (maybe partially due to my being a first time burner?), my dog was banned from the event one week before it starts.

My dog has a terminal illness (a type of cancer), and probably will not have more than a year to live. Her health has been very stable since her diagnosis approximately one month ago or else I would not even consider bringing her. Even in the worst of worst case scenarios (which I do not foresee happening based on her current stable health), I have extra medicines to give her and the ability to take her to the emergency vet via the help of some members of my camp in case should it become necessary.

She grew up in New York City, has been to tons of festivals with me, and truly loves the outdoors and being around lots of people.

Carnelian King

Carnelian King August 3rd, 2021 15:17

Our friend Aly has been looking forward to bringing their dog Kudra to the burn, and had gotten approval for her to be one of the six dogs there from the dog leads on the 26th of June.

Our camp, the Prometheans, reached consensus with ~35 people to bring her even though they were aware of terminal illness. Kudra was diagnosed just last month, and was told she will have less than a year to live. She is still very alert, mobile, and in good spirits.

 She's an old dog and usually spends a lot of her time relaxing, and although I personally am afraid of dogs she has helped me to get over that fear by being so calm.

She has been to many festivals and loves being around people and outside.

The reason I am bringing this up is that we received a verbal agreement that she would be allowed, but yesterday were told by the dog leads she would actually be banned.

Their reasoning was that a dog who is unwell does not align with "the values this group is trying to promote of responsibly integrating the dogs into the community". Yet none of these values were stated here in this proposal. This feels unfair to us and goes against the community's commitment to inclusion.

We have created a responsibility plan to have a car available for her if something goes wrong and a person to stay sober each night to make sure she would be looked after. However she has not yet shown any signs of her deteriorating health in the last month.

 We are really unhappy about this choice because we had planned a ritual for her, and this dog has been a friend to us for many years. It will also mean Kudra's owner Aly cannot attend, which will be difficult for them and their role in our camp is a helpful one. We have worked hard to come up with solutions to all the problems we could foresee arising.

We were told that the dog team's decision yesterday was final and have been recommended by Sunniva that if we want this to happen then we must make our own proposal or go to the core org. Thus we would like to appeal to the community.

Does the decision of these leads represent the views of this community?
 I would like to get a larger consensus.

Cris

Cris August 3rd, 2021 13:59

And to the Rangers, please! @Jessie

Sunniva

Sunniva August 3rd, 2021 13:29

@Mareike Yep doing this today! Thank you for the reminder!

Mareike

Mareike July 28th, 2021 10:47

@Sunniva @Hanna-Maija (Animal) once the 6 Dogs/Dog Owners are registered could you pass on the list to me so we have it at the Gate? :)

Jarrod Wright

Jarrod Wright July 22nd, 2021 18:19

Gotcha! sync'd 😎

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala July 22nd, 2021 15:31

getting lost on talk? lol! welcome to the jungle!

Sunniva

Sunniva July 22nd, 2021 11:32

Hi @Jarrod Wright! Yep that's right - I posted it in the program thread here on Talk. Here's the direct link: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/IvTp4cxU/event-program-coordination-/34

Jarrod Wright

Jarrod Wright July 20th, 2021 21:28

@Sunniva @Hanna-Maija (Animal) I'm fairly certain that I saw a document or post on talk that contained the information that was requested to be placed in the program about dogs at Kiezburn. I don't seem to be able to find it so please can one of you message me through talk to arrange :)

Purzel

Purzel June 26th, 2021 19:57

I appreciate the thought but I don't think that first aid needs such a sheet, I'll let them know about the dogs on site and that should be enough for their field 😊

Cris

Cris June 24th, 2021 09:10

Congratulations on the successful outcome!

When you are ready, please check with Clément about where to place your dog-spaces: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/FCwUBtR8/site-planning

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 18th, 2021 10:05

@Cris Just to be clear, I don't think a dog on-site should immediately be treated as an emergency incident and trigger a bunch of activity. Keep in mind, we know from previous experience that there are a few local dogs that show up on-site during the event, with or without their owners. So I probably would not respond to seeing a dog on-site at all, unless I had reason to believe it was/is/will be problematic for some reason. Now that we will also have dogs on-site attached to KB participant responsible humans.... since they should be easily identifiable as one of the KB dogs, I might react a bit more if I saw one of those randomly walking around by itself in the middle of the night, because that would imply that it somehow escaped its supervision, probably without its responsible human knowing.

After that, what you have said makes sense to me: Rangers would try to contact the Dog Lead, if that was unsuccessful the Ranger Lead might try alternative ways of reaching the Dog Lead and/or assess if the unsupervised dog is a danger to itself or other people, if that did not resolve things they would contact the Site Lead and they would ultimately figure out what to do.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 12th, 2021 21:15

Heya, I guess this is in the making, stay tuned and of course, take part in the making process too if you wish! Find me on Telegram for more efficient communication @VerocaRS

Sven Schulte-Rummel

Sven Schulte-Rummel June 12th, 2021 14:16

Dear Sunniva - Sven, Steffi and Inka write here 🐩 - and it is so wonderful that some dogs will be allowed. Inka would like to be part of the Kiezburn pack - but it is not yet entirely clear to us how and if we can "apply"!

https://www.instagram.com/100grenzen

A woof and best regards, s & s & p

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 11th, 2021 21:21

yup, makes sense

Hanna-Maija (Animal)

Hanna-Maija (Animal) June 11th, 2021 19:43

Thank you so much Mareike! Great input. I also would not like if a stranger dog would ran towards me or jump on me and I think dog owners everywhere should be more conscious about their dogs behaviour. I think having dogs on leash and the owners being alert should stop this behaviour.

I absolutely LOVE the idea of a workshop <3 Yassssss let's do it!

Sunniva

Sunniva June 11th, 2021 16:24

Thanks for this suggestion. To my understanding, there's a whole bunch of different things that may or may not work out as we imagine. In addition, something that seems minor to me might be considered a serious incident for someone else, and vice versa. In order to have an open mind to make a comprehensive assessment afterwards, I would like to avoid specifying any nuanced scenarios beforehand. If there are numerous serious complaints, we won't suggest to continue with our arrangement in the future. Or the other way around: If we manage to go through with this test run without any serious incidents, complaints or objections, we propose to continue with our arrangement in the future, and adjust the Kiez Burn regulation excluding dogs from our event accordingly. I'll add this to our proposal. Does that sound fair to you @CJ Yetman?

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 10th, 2021 11:36

I have one other suggestion for this already wonderful proposal...

Since this is a proposal for a trial run, it might make sense to state beforehand what are the criteria with which it will be judged, e.g. if a dog bites someone this year, then we will just drop this idea completely, or if nothing significant happens and there are no serious complaints, we expect to extend this to the following year with no limit on the number of dogs allowed, or if there are numerous complaints online and on-site related to the dogs being allowed on-site this year, then we will have to strongly reconsider continuing this in future years, recognising that a very limited portion of the community actually participates here on Talk, etc.

Jan-Christian Kaspareit

Jan-Christian Kaspareit June 9th, 2021 08:48

Great advice process.

I personally don't have a problem with dogs on site, but agree with CJs reasoning. If a dog causes trouble we will probably need to handle the situation as if the corresponding human causes trouble.

As this is a new idea, I would always prioritize other participants needs and boundaries over dog owners and make sure that every dog is supervised at all times.

It will be a fun experiment, if it happens.

Mareike

Mareike June 8th, 2021 20:06

So I'm not super afraid of dogs, but also not very comfortable. More because I don't know how a dog reacts and how a dog reacts to how I react ;) To me what scares me is when a (big) dog runs towards me (probably out of excitement). I immediately do sudden movements which might again scare the dog. Also it freaks me out if a dog jumps me. --> I think this is already part of the protocol that this is not cool. The rule to be on a leash when around people also prevents it. Also Dog-humans should be watching out for this not to happen and being understanding about other peoples reservations/fears. The dog can't ask for consent to approach someone, so the owners have to be even more aware (But this also goes hand in hand with humans not just approaching and touching the dogs but asking the humans for consent!) But this is already well communicated in the proposal.

One more thing I was just thinking about: Maybe it would be good for the Dog owners and Lead to know who might not be super comfortable around dogs. They could go around the camps and check-in with people and communicate this to the owners to be extra aware. Or the Dog Lead could do a info workshop or even a "Meet the dogs" (no petting zoo though!)

So me personally I feel good about this proposal and these very responsable Dog Leads. Wuff

Otto

Otto June 8th, 2021 09:34

This is the most beautiful and perfectly written advice process I have ever seen. I am truly in awe

Sunniva

Sunniva June 7th, 2021 19:23

Me and @Hanna-Maija (Animal) will alternate the role of the Dog Lead throughout the event, and it looks like we've got the radio covered from our side. Our goal is to be reachable at any given time throughout the entirety of the event. I guess what you're describing here @Cris is a worst case scenario, and I appreciate the specifics. I just added under point 8 today that "Protocols for these scenarios will be cleared with Site Lead and Ranger Lead prior to the event." Does that offer some reassurance from our side?

I also wanna add that all of our dogs will be clearly marked, and I guess it makes sense from the scenario you're describing to make it extra clear where and to whom the dog belongs. There's a black neighbour dog that's shown up the last two burns at Freiland. Very friendly and without a leash or a collar. I feel confident that with our system we would be able to differentiate quickly between outsider dogs and our dogs.

Cris

Cris June 7th, 2021 17:56

Allow me to be very specific here: If in the middle of the night some ranger sees a loose dog or some dog-related problem, and they don't have a phone, and we cannot find the Dog Lead (because they don't know where they are and don't answer on the radio) they would pass it on to the Ranger Lead, then to the Site Lead. In the meanwhile, I guess the community may have taken care of the situation and/or the dog is am Ostsee swimming already. Just to put ourselves in the situation.

Cris

Cris June 7th, 2021 17:33

I survived several years and I'm certain, dogs are better prepared than I am 🐢

Sunniva

Sunniva June 7th, 2021 13:55

I would consider a sleeping dog supervised if it's in a calm area and enclosure in close proximity to it's Responsible Human. If they wake up or something unexpected happens, the Responsible Human should be able to hear it and react to it pretty fast.

Hanna-Maija (Animal)

Hanna-Maija (Animal) June 7th, 2021 13:45

I would not even dream about taking my dog to Nowhere. It's way too hot there for furry friends

Sunniva

Sunniva June 7th, 2021 13:41

I just edited our proposal according to the feedback we've received this far! Thanks y'all!

I'm also working on getting touch with someone from NOrg (Nowhere Orga) to learn more about why they decided to discontinue their arrangement allowing dogs onsite. I assume it's due to the particular climate and environment at Nowhere, but I'm still curious to hear more. I'll update here when I learn something new about that.

Hanna-Maija (Animal)

Hanna-Maija (Animal) June 7th, 2021 11:30

I would love to hear from someone who is afraid of dogs about what would make them comfortable! I myself can also be a little alert around dogs I don't know if they are running free. Dogs on leashes are not a problem.

Hanna-Maija (Animal)

Hanna-Maija (Animal) June 7th, 2021 11:27

I guess when the dogs responsible human is sleeping the dog doesn't need another human to watch him/her? In this case I would just require that the dog is either on lead or in a grate / van / some other place where it can't escape.

Hanna-Maija (Animal)

Hanna-Maija (Animal) June 7th, 2021 11:22

I actually have one walkie-talkie of my own that can serve as a dog lead one. Maybe we can charge it at the camp while resting.

Bee

Bee June 7th, 2021 10:23

In terms of walkies these should still be in storage (we used a couple for the Summer Camp event). @CJ Yetman and @Cris we can make a note during the Spark weekend of the amount in case there's need for more.

Remy Schneider

Remy Schneider June 7th, 2021 08:07

Thanks @Sunniva for the super thorough responses! Wishing you guys all the best - just a note that with the low noise levels this year, I think it's a great experimental time. I hope it works out for everyone involved :)

Sunniva

Sunniva June 6th, 2021 18:24

Thank you @Cris!

  • I'll prepare a bullet list with the most important details for Rangers, Site Lead, First Aid and Gate + anyone else who wants it.

  • Yeah I'm feeling optimistic that we can have one Dog Lead throughout the burn that is prepared to be waken up when necessary, but I'll make sure to arrange with a backup/substitute that could step in at last minute. This is one of the details we'll have to reassess afterwards and keep in mind for the sake of the test run.

  • I'll add that about marking the 3-6 dogs onsite well. Maybe we'll make little reflector belt bags for them or some kind of sign, and/or MAYBE EVEN A COSTUME ONE? The possibilities are endless and I just got myself a sowing machine. I'm confident we'll find a smart solution for this.

Cris

Cris June 6th, 2021 15:05

Oh, right. Just a little note: Dog Lead may have their phone all the time on them, but phones are often very! scarce on site during the event.

Cris

Cris June 6th, 2021 15:04

Beautiful proposal, thank you! I can only subscribe to all the kuddos.

From my (Ranger) side, I'd add:

  • We love protocols, and surely yours are flawless and precise. I know from experience, peeps don't read them. And if they do, they forget. Would it be possible to have a bullet list on 1 page of the most important and common stuff, that we could hang at the Rangers HQ, for the fast trainings prior to shifts? Thinking about easy clear info to see, read, consult, for a ranger starting their shift at 4am.

  • I guess the Dog Lead will sleep at some point, probably on top of their dog, but Rangers don't sleep. What do we do if a dog is wondering unattended in the middle of the Dog Lead siesta? Should that tent be known by any Ranger to be shaken if needed?

  • I know several of your lovely dogs personally, but please take into account there may be around 100 volunteers on site insgesamt. Pictures of humans+dog AND the super visible number I find good ideas. As contact info, name AND camp/free camping spot, plus a tlf number is useful.

  • So far from me. Thank you for opening such an interesting conversation

Cris

Cris June 6th, 2021 14:50

  • When I striked Rangers Headquarters last time, we had:

– 21 (+ 4-5) Walkie Talkies

– 12 (+ 1?) Walkie charger

– 13 Walkie earplugs

Which went into a closed separate box, that I handed to the site lead lead (oder, @CJ Yetman ?) I don't know were that box is now, tho.

The uncertainty about the numbers is due to the fact, that some radios were still in use, when I did this.

  • Although we cannot say yet, how many radios we'll exactly require this year, we managed last time with that amount, and there were always several radios charging. I'd say, we have enough for a potential Dog Lead.

  • Important consideration, what CJ mentioned: if you need one radio at any given time, you need actually 2 radios, so the other is charging.

  • Radios Handover: last time, radios were centralized in the Rangers Headquarters, where we kept a list of the radios usage. Everyone having a radio signs up with name there by picking up and return.

    I'd gerne have the name and times of radio use some weeks prior to the event to include the Dog Lead in this list :)

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 6th, 2021 14:11

I can't say for certain... I don't know exactly how many radios we have. I believe they are stored with the Rangers' supplies. Generally speaking, we have had more than were needed at any given time, but you also have to account for some (maybe close to half) need to be charging while the others are being used. Maybe @Cris has an idea of the exact number we have? I think maybe we should consider getting a few more... looks like maybe Welfare will be needing more this year also, I'd like to keep 4 of them specifically at the Site Lead station.

Sunniva

Sunniva June 6th, 2021 13:56

Thanks for putting this into perspective as a Site Lead @CJ Yetman! Sounds completely reasonable to me. I agree with your judgement here, and will keep that in mind when communicating our agreements, guidelines and protocols with the other Responsible Humans bringing their dogs to Kiez Burn.

Sunniva

Sunniva June 6th, 2021 13:53

@CJ Yetman: Is there a surplus radio that the Dog Lead could have on them throughout the event?

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 6th, 2021 13:25

Some interesting questions/scenarios raised here. To add some color, here's how I would deal with all of these situations as a Site Lead assuming there were no specific rules about the situation....

The responsible human being for a dog is 100% responsible, therefore anything that the dog does I would treat as something the human did themselves, and approach a solution with that, e.g.

  • if a dog was brought to an area where people were hanging out and started barking at people, someone was particularly frightened by it and someone one else on their behalf asked the responsible human if they would take the dog a way but the responsible human said something like "it's ok, she doesn't bite... she's actually really nice" and then didn't take the dog away from the area, and then eventually that story got to me.... I would treat that as if the responsible human was aggressively frightening people and refused to back away from people who asked them to leave them alone, which would probably put them dangerously close to an eviction

  • if a dog was frequently barking at people while walking around the site and we had received multiple reports of it, I would treat that as if the responsible human was aggressively frightening people, and although they may had not necessarily broken any consent rules by persisting with specific people, their behaviour had become problematic and it would need to be addressed

  • if a dog bit someone or otherwise physically harmed someone, I would treat that as if the responsible human had physically harmed someone out of negligence

  • it could also go the other way, e.g. if a person harmed or mistreated a dog, I would treat that as if they had done the harm or mistreatment to the responsible human (assuming the responsible human was being responsible and was with the dog during the incident)

Maybe that gives a sense of where I'd be coming from. Happy to add more detail or respond to specific questions about that.

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 6th, 2021 13:07

what do you want to know about radio?

Sunniva

Sunniva June 6th, 2021 11:15

Hi Remy! Thank you for asking all these great and considerate questions and addressing so many important details.

Safety of the Animal

  • As Dog Lead, I'll be connecting all the Responsible Humans and do my best to ensure that we are equipped to help each other out in the event of a severe incident.

  • I agree that dogs should be supervised to some extent at any given time, and that when safely guarded and in an enclosure, one Responsible Human could supervise more than 2 dogs. I'll change this in our proposed agreements.

  • I'll develop a protocol for missing dogs and other unfortunate incidents and make sure these are also shared with Rangers and Site Leads. Because the dogs will be supervised at any given time, we hope to avoid any unwanted escalation.

  • There are 6 vet practices surrounding the Kiez Burn site and all at 20-40 minutes driving distance. Werner Mengel Tierarzt (Eichenweg 5) is open 24/7 and is a 33 minute drive away. I'll prepare a list of vets and numbers to call that I'll carry with me.

Safety of Participants

  • Dog Lead will be instructing the Responsible Humans about our agreements and guidelines prior to the event. I'll be making it very clear that dogs come second to meeting the needs of other humans in physical areas and activities. I'll make it a rule that whenever someone voices a concern or wish, this shall be respected without any further questions. I'm positive that those of us who'll be having our dogs with us will do our best to be considerate in this regard. I will add this to our agreements listed above.

  • Our goal is to have this proposal decided upon within next Friday, so that we have time to focus on developing guidelines and protocols and communicating these well. Ideally this will be included in the handbook and on any info boards as well as at the gate. Similarly to how camps can mark their areas as "not suitable for kids", I hope to have the same markers for dogs.

  • If there is unclarity about whether an area or installation is dog-friendly, Dog Lead will be responsible to check in with those involved.

  • If an incident occurs where a dog has caused fear or harm during the event, such an incident shall be handled and mediated by the Dog Lead. Depending on severity, Site Lead will make the final call, and the dog and their Responsible Human must leave the event. We will develop protocols for worst case scenarios as well as for milder incidents, and these should be cleared with Site Lead & Ranger Lead prior to the event. I'll update this in the agreements.

Resources required from Kiez Burn

  • Dog Lead will make sure that all protocols, agreements and guidelines for dogs at Kiez Burn is available and communicated to Gate, Welfare, First Aid, Site Leads and Rangers. I'll update this in the agreements.

  • I hope that Dog Lead will have access to a radio/walkie talkie in order to be available at any given time. If not, we might have to depend on phone service for this first test run.

I hope that clears up most of your remarks @Remy Schneider! Let me know if anything is still unclear.

Question: Who do I talk to about radios/walkie talkies? @Franzi? @CJ Yetman?

Sunniva

Sunniva June 6th, 2021 10:12

Hi @Bee! Thanks for the correction on Safety Protocols and for voicing these questions.

  • I'll be volunteering as this year's Dog Lead!

  • As Dog Lead, I will be instructing the Responsible Humans about our agreements and guidelines prior to the event. I'll be making it very clear that dogs come second to meeting the needs of other humans in physical areas and activities. I'll make it a rule that whenever someone voices a concern or wish, this shall be respected without any further questions. I'm positive that those of us who'll be having our dogs with us will do our best to be considerate in this regard. I will add this to our agreements listed above.

  • I'm planning on making a list of recommendations including taking our dogs out for long walks every day, bringing a few extra toys, giving a lot of positive reinforcements, and what signs to look out for in noticing distress in our dogs. Even for experienced dog owners, I imagine it can be nice with an extra reminder.

  • I'll be in close contact with all dog owners throughout the event, and I'll do daily check-ins to see how things are going and to collect feedback for this test run.

Remy Schneider

Remy Schneider June 6th, 2021 08:58

Hey all - really nice proposal - and super cool that you are so thoughtfully challenging this old rule. It was put in place mostly because it was easy - it seems like you all are really taking lots of responsibility which is what we were lacking in a decision to allow dogs onsite for the burn (dogs have always been allowed on site during build and strike).

I have a few thoughts - my input coming from I wrote the "no dogs" rule in the first place.

Safety of the Animal

  • There seems to be a conflicting statement --> Point 6 "One human can be a Responsible Human for a maximum of two dogs at a time if necessary" and then Point 7 "Camps and Responsible Humans can create their own designated areas for dogs either with crates or fence structures where the dogs can play or rest safely and unsupervised."

    Point 6: Is there a reason why you want to cap the # of dogs someone can watch at 2? Thinking that A) a dog walker handles more than 2 dogs often, and B) when someone is watching e.g., kids at kinderkiez it's often more than two... which leads me to point 7: Does this mean dogs can be left unsupervised? I think that a person needs to be watching/responsible for dogs at basically all times to avoid injury/distress to dog and/or human.

    Would you consider changing the max. # of dogs that can be watched by someone, but always have the dogs supervised? I worry that a "secure enclosure" might not be that secure after day 3 when the dog who has spent a bunch of time there figures out how to escape. Or someone sees the dog in there, wants to interact with the dog, and accidentally lets them out (or even just decides to move the structure/open the crate for their own purposes. )

  • Have you considered what will happen if a dog is in a dangerous situation? Will this become the responsibility of the Rangers? (Please also see resources required from Kiez Burn). What if someone leaves a dog in a hot place (car, tent, crate that move into direct sun)? What if the dog were to escape and become injured, or go missing? We have protocols for humans - I assume the dog owners will self-organize?

  • We will not have a vet onsite - how will you determine that your dog is under too much stress and/or otherwise unfit to continue being at the event?

Safety of Participants

  • It has been brought up a few times, but I don't see an answer specifically to this (only something vague about dog density in Berlin): What will you do in situations where people are uncomfortable with dogs and those dogs are in close proximity? Say you are at a workshop with your dog, someone doesn't like dogs/feel comfortable, will the dog owner always be expected to be the ones who leave?

  • How will you inform participants and or Kieze/Camps that dogs will be onsite, and they have the choice to make their spaces dog friendly or not - and that participants have the right to voice their objection to physical proximation with a dog?

  • Stressful situations can arise - what will you do if your dog accidentally hurts someone? Does the dog have to leave site immediately (I assume for the human they will rely on services on site, and then Dog Lead will mediate?)


Resources required from Kiez Burn

  • What exactly are the resources that will be required from Kiez Burn to facilitate this experiment? Right now I see that rangers will be informed of the dog owner/dog and perhaps receive a pairing picture of the two --> "we will only include other leads in the event of a severe incident." I think that this is not super fleshed out yet, because of course other people need to be informed (camp leads, gate, participants through comms, etc) and of course people on site will need a little information (welfare, first aid, rangers, etc)? I love that it appears there will be no additional burden for the KB services or volunteers, but I also find this lack of information circulation quite concerning.

  • What are the steps if someone reports a problem with a dog to say Welfare or a Ranger? Does this always go to the dog lead on site? How will this person be found at all times that there could be an incident?

Thanks again for bringing this up - I want to point out again that I am SUPER SUPPORTIVE of your proposal in general and I hope that it is successful! I don't see any major blockers at all the way you have listed things out. I hope that you will consider the questions above not to be nit-picky, but to address specific incidents as they can arise. I saw you mention Borderland as an example that allows dogs - I think this is a trend as more and more festivals do allow animals. But there can be LOTS of challenges too - Nowhere for example initially allowed dogs and then revoked that and banned them. So it goes both ways. Wishing you the best <3

Bee

Bee June 5th, 2021 14:33

Hey, Franzi is now the lead for the Saftey Protocols. :) here are my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Amazing work on the proposal. Will one of you 3 proposers be taking the role on as Dog Lead or will we outsource this role to the community?

I echo Franzi's concern about those who are fearful of dogs, but also would like to believe in the self reliance that if someone is not comfortable they can make this known. (which brings up a little bit of though on inclusion. Does the person uncomfortable need to leave the group space, or do Responsible Humans assume this by default? Or perhaps proactively ensure check ins)?

The leash & safe play pen area sound like good measures to keep most people safe and dogs happy. I would trust the dog lead & owners to also make the call if their pet is clearly very distressed in some way to remove them from site. Given that they may act in unpredictable ways which could lead to filing an incident report, as well as for the well being of the animal.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 5th, 2021 11:22

Thanks for bringing up all questions, answering quickly to some of them not much time to do a nice writing. So o my understanding:

  1. Dog owners do register and dog leads arrange the signup and control vaxx, registration etc, picture of owner and dog to give to rangers to easier localize dog+owner by the way they look. Dogs could have a very visible number tagged too.

  2. max amount proposed this year as try out: 6 dogs

  3. ppl not comfortable around dogs will probably see more dogs on the streets than at freiland. However, we hear them; dogs will be on leash or in a fenced area arranged and afforded by dog owners and approved safety by dog lead. ( size of crate/installation is secure and dog cannot scape or jump out)

  4. As ppl with kids, when going party or for a shift, they find someone responsible for their kids on-site, or they just stay put, same modality here with dogs.

  5. this burn is not too loud as far as I know