talk.kiezburn.org
June 21st, 2021 07:54

Swimming in the Lake - Not happening at this stage

Professor Kaos
Professor Kaos Public Seen by 143

OUTCOME - No swimming in either Lake

Until a strong realizer shows up (and there would be a directed ticket for them if they want it), who is qualified and can organize enough qualified lifeguards to monitor the southern lake, it is in the interest of the affected parties (which is currently the legal body responsible if someone drowns at the event) to take the rational and cautious choice of simply enforcing a "No-swimming in any lake policy"

This means that in order to cool down, you will have to be really self-reliant. Remember there's no lake on the real Playa, just sand and alkalized salt, so I think we'll survive the German summer heat. It looks like we will have showers though. Bring a spray bottle and a handheld fan just in case.




There are 2 lakes at Freiland, and at this stage, technically we can't swim in either.

Lake 1 is on the west bank, and is completely forbidden to swim in as it is a recovering natural pond and the wildlife get's severely disturbed and damaged by 1000 sun-screened hippies taking a dip to cool their boots.

We still intend to protect the nature of this lake at the costs of being hot, and this remains non-negotiable.

The southern lake (by the Pirate Kiez) we have permission from the Gelande to swim in, so long as we take adequate precautions (washing sunscreen off beforehand etc).

However - Legally we must ban anyone from swimming in the lake and enforce this ban, as any body of water requires a qualified and designated lifeguard on shift at all times.

Freiland simply enforce the no-swimming ban, but I think the participants of Kiez Burn can do one better.

IMPORTANT NOTE: This whole situation is currently outside of the entire Covid safety protocol discussions, and it may be that the Gesundheitsamt or local Amt decide that the lake is a high risk zone and should be banned anyway. We will find out later in the negotiations.

If someone steps up to being a Lake Realizer, and we can gather enough volunteer lifeguards to watch the lake, Kiez Burn could have a legally swimmable location!

As a board member and Treasurer, I am currently wrapping my head around the legal responsibilities of hosting an event in a Pandemic without putting the verein/board into debt. I would very much like this issue to not be weighing over my shoulders, and for all of you who might think "Bah humbug! Trust in radical Self-reliance! The hippies can take care of themselves":

There have been accidents in this very lake in past events. And the government and bereaved nearly always want someone to blame for the suffering.

So please don't moan, and propose a solution. Because when they blame, they won't be blaming your radically-not-responsible ass!

#1 - Proposal

  • Someone steps up as Lake Realizer (a.k.a Neptune/Merperson/Poiseidon), who would coordinate this proposal.

  • We fill shifts having qualified lifeguards within specific times of the day (most likely daylight hours), stationed at the Southern lake (by the Pirates)

  • Adequate signage and safety materials are supplied

  • We can cool off on the hot august days!

#2 - The current legal alternative

  • We have to create an official swimming ban on the lake

  • Rangers would need to be briefed to enforce this

I recognize I am proposing a role for which I cannot fill, but as I stated above, I have some legal responsibility to the event and the safety of the participants, and I am currently wrapped up in financial as well as other board/korg/camp duties and cannot drive this. By default I have to go with #2, but I think the participants of Kiez Burn should be given the opportunity for #1. Whoever can, will just have to step up if that's the case.


BOARD STATEMENT - Legal Body Representing the Verein Kiez Burn
 Concerning the usage of the lake: we can't keep 950 substantized participants safe for the entirety of the event, nor can we protect the lake from 950 sun-screened participants.

Kiez burn more outsources visit all Amt-required safety services, Feuerwehr, First aid, security. This will now also include lifeguards. It is unfair on everyone involved to place the life of another human being in volunteers' hands. Our philosophy cannot stretch that far at this stage.

We can however at least create a safe space for one artist to fulfill a dream of performing in the lake, safely watched, by both the participants and the undisturbed wildlife.

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman July 4th, 2021 13:31

in my understanding, that is how it's supposed to work.... but don't forget the "consensual" part, that's often the hardest part

MeTaMiNd eVoLuTioN

MeTaMiNd eVoLuTioN July 4th, 2021 13:30

omg if that is really how it works ~ consensual doocracy r0ckz !! :)

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman July 4th, 2021 12:07

I don't have a specific answer to your question, but from my personal perspective as a Korg member (not board)... much earlier this year (like February or March), we defined all the areas that need to be "realized" for the event to take place, and we prioritized them into categories Critical, Too Big to Fail, and Non Critical. Had this been on our radar at that time as something we need to work out, I believe this would have ended up on the Critical list because something that potentially risks serious harm to anyone on-site and that the board could have some legal responsibility for is something that would prevent the event from happening if it's not being adequately handled.

So, I don't think anyone really has the authority to say "no one may search for a lake-realizer anymore", but I'm not aware of any strong push to make this happen, and I believe the default will be no lake access unless someone comes up with a plausible, doable, well defined, adequate plan and all the time, people, money, energy to make it happen is in place.

Patricia

Patricia July 4th, 2021 11:34

Hey dears, I'm a bit confused by the board statement and the discussion. Is the search for lake-realizers called off now?

Cris

Cris June 28th, 2021 15:52

yes, please!!!

DU

[deactivated account] June 27th, 2021 15:00

I think participants should be asked to commit to like the "Swimming_Habit+Preservation Terms & Conditions", which are at the bottom on this post. It is only a draft for your review and consideration.

On Sunday evening, after Spark, just as I was about to make my last skinny dip at Freiland, I was approached by a resident of the area, who immediately took to expressing a variety of concerns of her community regarding events at the Freiland, regarding which she has called the police and has spoken to organizers at the gate and elsewhere (e.g. Erik) on numerous occasions. So I put my pants back on….. ;)

She was adamant about the necessity to preserve the native habitat. She visits the Freiland daily and told me of the numerous bird types and other animals that have returned since Covid bagan, She is concerned that new events will mean they will disappear once more.

She was also adamant of volume levels. Much of what she said indicated more personal frustrations visavis the world (i.e., multi-culti music mixed with other sorts), yet others are likely shared by us by virtue of the 11P alone (i.e. habitat preservation and civic responsibility). She was unable to answer my numerous attempts at a suggestion for hours of load play vs. quiet time, yet repeatedly stated that the volume levels should be “normal und ordentlich.” Nor did she answer my suggestion of a “habitat preservation concept” that could be exchanged with the community. I got the impression that this is a person who will complain no matter what. However, perhaps some of her concerns are taken up in the attached disclaimer and would serve to indicate to the community that Kiez Burn respects their concerns, while reminding participants of our larger role as Burners.

--

Hans approached me Sunday morning re the no-swim lake situation. I think re Covid, we satisfy our requirements visvis our insurance and the state by virtue of the Covid plan being approved and properly executed. However, I do not think we will be able to satisfy the same regarding use of the lake.

I put together the document below, which contains mere suggestions regarding preservation of habitat issues through addressing use of the lake during the event. It is very short at date. Perhaps by the coupling of both, we can better encourage participants to exercise due care.

I am not a German attorney and my suggestions stem from an American legal perspective regarding assumption of risk.

I cannot assume responsibility for these being legally binding or valid in any respect. However, I do believe that a disclaimer/assumption of risk/terms & conditions, does serve to apprise all participants of their responsibilities and encourage responsible behavior. One Section can be taken directly from the BurningMan ticket (I can`t find an old stub), and I expressed that specific law may override any attempt of ours to reduce our risk exposure in terms of inalienable law (unabdingbares Recht).

If you find it purposive, I could take a look at the event insurance and speak with your Vereinsrechtler/in regarding these issues, in order to improve the document or scrap it entirely, if he/she/you all sees no purpose therein.

I do however believe the participant must be apprised of these issues.

Love and Dusties,

Natron

--

Swimming_Habit+Preservation Terms & Conditions

Knowing full well that you will be participating in a Do-it-Yourself event, put on completely by its participants, meaning you as well, it is vital you understand that you are fully responsible for your actions while on the event location. Although the Kiez Burn organizers have taken extensive precautions to ensure all emergency scenarios are properly executed, due to the nature of the event and facility, it is possible that some requirements cannot be properly met without sacrificing core principles of our community (e.g., inclusivity, commodification).

The Kiez Burn e.V. in no manner wishes to exclude you from the event for your refusal to sign this agreement. However, your signature would be very appreciated in the interest of continuing our community and ability to use the event location. Please read the remarks below and take them to heart in the interest of us all having the best burn possible.

Respect of natural habitats:

In the interest of allowing the native water dwelling habitat a respite from our human activities in the lake, swimming and any use of the lake is not allowed after sunset. Repeat violations will be grounds for expulsion from the event. This also applies to repeated entries into spaces that are not part of the event location (i.e., demarcated by xxxxx) or have not been groomed for human entry (cut pastures), as the event location is the direct habitat for a variety of animal species.

Participants should inform themselves daily of what fire standard is applicable for that day of the event (1 through 5) and what type of fire may be used correspondingly for any purpose (matches, lighters, camp fires, small wood burning camp stoves, small fuel driven stoves and fuel driven kitchen stoves (e.g., propane).

Insert Burningman disclaimer modified for our event. From ticket stub back.]

These conditions are in no manner an attempt to supersede overriding law or exculpate responsibility, insofar as required by law. It is intended to encourage self-reliance and community responsibility, so that every one of us has the best burn possible for many years to come.

--

MeTaMiNd eVoLuTioN

MeTaMiNd eVoLuTioN June 25th, 2021 15:10

Malibu BaY-WaTCH: https://youtu.be/O0nqwgu_Us4

Diarmaid

Diarmaid June 25th, 2021 13:46

As this has only received support, I am reapproving it on the platform under the condition that a lifeguard has to be found, and it is made clear in the description that this is an exception to the rule allowing swimming in the lake. This does not mean that it will go ahead or that the exemption has been granted, just that it is once again visible. This dream may still be cancelled.

Purzel

Purzel June 25th, 2021 13:02

I could get one of those ugly tight red swimpants, or the swimming suit that Pamela Anderson wears in this famous show that I don't remember the name of 🤣

Cris

Cris June 25th, 2021 12:26

I'm of the opinion a performance should grant an exception. We were swimming in the lake during Spark, it's not about swimming itself, it's more about the scale of allowing the whole festival.

I think this could be used as an awareness riser and information giver about why such ban exists, like, maybe integrating the no-sunscreen issue, making Hans (thank you for offering!!!) part of it, so that the lifeguard it's necessary and visible, etc. If you think it's doable.

I also think that if this works, a very clear statement about why this is an exception should be made on the description of the dream, to avoid ppl thinking that's ok-ish and jealousies and shit like that.

I would personally love to see this happen ❤️

Diarmaid

Diarmaid June 25th, 2021 12:18

I support this

daniel no

daniel no June 25th, 2021 12:13

Just a little update - I talked to Bucht der Träumer, they never had a Lifeguard. But DLRG Rules in there booklet to be save - same for Nation of Godwana. no Lifeguard - just the common rules in there booklet plus awareness team at the beach to remind ppl that they might be too drunk. NoG is doing this for 20 years now. 🤔

Purzel

Purzel June 25th, 2021 12:03

I'm not certified anymore but would guard you while your performance

Cris

Cris June 25th, 2021 12:01

me too

Melinda Gonzalez

Melinda Gonzalez June 25th, 2021 11:29

I would support this

Nora Flora

Nora Flora June 25th, 2021 11:06

Until the swimming situation is sorted out I would like to ask for an exception so that my DREAM in the lake can be approved and voted for.

Unfortunately, I was not aware of the swimming issue when I came up with my DREAM. In case I can find a lifeguard to supervise me, I would like to try and do my dream if people wanna vote for it. If no one wants to see someone else swim in the lake I understand. 😆 But since the situation is still so unclear I would like to ask for an exception to at least have it on the Dreams platform. Thank you.

My mermaid dream has currently been taken off the Dreams platform. So I’m writing to appeal to the community to be able to swim in the lake for a performance. My performance will be timetabled officially in the program, I will not put any nasty chemicals in the lake, and the performance will only happen if a lifeguard is organised for safety. If a lifeguard cannot be present, I will need to cancel the performance of course.

I put in a disclaimer now:

Disclaimer: As turns out swimming in the lakes is generally not possible this year due to safety & environmental reasons, my performance will depend on having a lifeguard there, which is not guaranteed yet. If you wanna see a mermaid swim, give it a vote and we will see if we can make my DREAM happen. Thank you!

Purzel

Purzel June 25th, 2021 10:59

You'll also need to collaborate with @Professor Kaos concerning our budget.

Purzel

Purzel June 25th, 2021 10:58

I haven't received a draft, where did you send it? 🤔

Nora Flora

Nora Flora June 25th, 2021 10:49

@Bee I will only have time after Monday to look into this more. As far as I understood though due to environmental reasons we will just have no swimming?

DU

[deactivated account] June 25th, 2021 10:23

@Purzel I just spoke with the DLRG Frankfurt and as said in the strings, a silver DLRG Schein/Ausbildung is necessary. I would have to start over with bronze and would not be able to compete it in time. The DLRP rep suggested we contact DLRP MeckPomm, the regional Ortsgruppe (OG) and ask if they can supply life guards for a small hourly rate. To that, I then recommend a strict, 8 mm to 8 am policy of no swimming. I concur. No official training, no life guarding.

Purzel

Purzel June 24th, 2021 13:20

Considering how much fuel they use just doing their normal business, sprinkling us with water wont put a dent in their usual expenses. They are on site anyway and will have a basic amount of gear with them.

👤

Anonymous June 24th, 2021 13:17

Purzel

Purzel June 24th, 2021 12:50

I just spoke to the local FD, they agreed to set up a pump with a massive sprinkler to give us some cool down rain. this would happen on the beach next to your camp and could create some noise (the pumps) on an undecided number of times a day.

I don´t know what pumps they are using, so the noise lvl can range from nothing to quite a lot.

How do the pirates feel about it?

DU

[deactivated account] June 24th, 2021 07:48

@Purzel, I will send you and Bee a draft Swimming/Habitat Preservation assumption of risk, that I believe irrespective of professional lifeguards should be used. It propose no swimming after sundown. Within an hour of you all leaving Sunday night, I was approached by a local. The details are in email to you and Bee and a copy of the draft assumption of risk. As it was not a condition to purchase of the ticket, we cannot compel anyone to sign it, but by signing it, people are committing themselves insofar as allowed by law, which we can discuss. My language is a bit strong, incl power towers and whips, yet it provide a bookend! :) Meeting the lifeguard bar is imo crucial to keeping event insurance protection.

MeTaMiNd eVoLuTioN

MeTaMiNd eVoLuTioN June 23rd, 2021 23:32

"Lake Ranger" basics inspiration:

> knows lake eco-systems and can observe and assess the local wildlife behavioural patterns present at the site, enabling to define and mark with signs "safe" water areas, where wildlife is the least disturbed, seperated into shallow low-risk areas, and deep-water high-risk.

> trained in water rescue DLRG rettungsschwimmer and DRK first-aid while fully sober during the duration of the shift. always maintains close observation of anyone in high risk areas.

> has experience in interacting with tripping people like green dot psycare rangers. especially awareness of body-language of people in special states of consciousness.

when planning to venture into deep water areas participants should actively seek contact with the Lake Ranger on duty beforehand, and maintain a cycle of regular eye-contact, and share the information if they are in elevated states by substance.

this way attention can be focused on aquatic participants currently in deep-water or tripping, while shallow areas are relatively low maintenance and also peer-secured, once the area is cleared of dangerous unnatural moop items in the water.

Bee

Bee June 23rd, 2021 21:03

Hey. Would you like to have a talk through with the fellow lake task force and come up with your proposals to present at the Korg meeting next Monday? Doesn't have to be as urgent if you want more time to go over things and even run by here on Talk if you want, but generally the KORG welcomes folk who want to drop into the planning especially if they're helping us with solutions. :)

Nora Flora

Nora Flora June 23rd, 2021 19:55

Hi @Tibo @daniel no I also registered for that course. (You additionally need to do a first aid course somewhere else.)

Questions are still:

1) Do we get enough (sober) lifeguards

I would be up for a lifeguard shift on Thursday and/or Friday but honestly won't be sober after that. (This is my first big Burn...)


2) Will the lifeguards & the people on the KiezBurn board (as I read in other comments here, they are liable for the safety?), want to officially take this responsibility?

I spoke to the woman teaching the course and there is still the concern for me that people will be on substances... but let us find out more about all these questions. Maybe a small swimming area + only daytime is possible?!


I suppose we make a lake task force @daniel no @Tibo to further look into options?! (how many lifeguards we would (legally?) need, check if/how it is possible to create a small shallow area for swimming that is easy to overlook...?)

WHO ELSE FOR TASK FORCE?

And can this be discussed in a KORG meeting soon?! If we do want more lifeguards we should reach out in the newsletter or social media, but this would need to be discussed in the KORG first, to know what to communicate....?
@Veroca R. Sala @Professor Kaos

Mareike

Mareike June 23rd, 2021 19:01

I SAW THE SNAKE !

daniel no

daniel no June 23rd, 2021 18:30

@Tibo and I are looking into options right now. We know this is a serious topic that's why both of us applied for a 3 weeks DLRG Rettungsswimmer silver training starting next Monday. So lets see what information we can get out of this training. Gonna update everyone on Monday evening here.

Purzel

Purzel June 23rd, 2021 16:28

People not being trained what to look for won't recognize a hippie drowning. It looks nothing like in movies and is a rather silent process. Lifeguards shifts require to be completely sober and constantly focused on everyone in the lake. (A rather boring and exhausting job)

Big part of the training is to "wrestle" ,someone in need for help, into submission. Someone who is drowning is panicking and grasping for anything within reach which often leads to endangering the one that wants to help, leaving two Hippies drowning instead of one.

I veto against anyone untrained doing shifts of watching the lake.

I've seen that you look into trainings but just wanted to give you this insight, why proper lifeguards are a legal requirement.

Tibo

Tibo June 23rd, 2021 15:28

hey, i understand the safety concerns about being in or around the water :) I agree that any activity in the water would best be secured with a trained life guard. I tried to find appointments to do the silver Rettungschwimmer asap, but also because of covid i couldn't find so many close to now. One offer starting 28.06 and finishing 16.07 i could find eventually now and just registered myself. Didn't get a confirmation yet, but there were free spots. If anybody else is interested in registering https://pankow.dlrg.de/kurse-und-anmeldung/rettungsschwimmausbildung/anmeldung/

👤

Anonymous June 23rd, 2021 14:56

Melinda Gonzalez

Melinda Gonzalez June 23rd, 2021 14:52

So according to safety protocol, would the 2 Dreamers be allowed to row a boat in the Lake?

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 23rd, 2021 14:09

totally feasible! let's do it.... I still prefer my snakes idea though

daniel no

daniel no June 23rd, 2021 13:53

There is the option to do a Rettungsswimmer course in Berlin bevor Kiezburn. The Pirates looking into it. 🤓

Cris

Cris June 23rd, 2021 12:48

Love this idea: here we can find the right formulars: www.german-buraucracy4all.de , under "Umplatzierung of natural water bodies".

already in contact with someone as a realizer for Lake Moving Lead, who is in contact with the new Security for hippies who can drawn in 25cm water Lead. All good!

Erin Jeavons-Fellows

Erin Jeavons-Fellows June 23rd, 2021 12:41

Can't we just simply move the lake? If we get enough paper work together and put in enough effort, we can just move it to a safer place and spread it out so its ankle deep so no one gets wet enough to hurt themselves. #problemsolved

daniel no

daniel no June 23rd, 2021 11:45

It will be a fixed island this year.. doesnt go off limits

daniel no

daniel no June 23rd, 2021 11:38

I can confirm @Erin Jeavons-Fellows view on this. With the Pirates on the Beach there is always someone to look after the Hippies. We can even make a shift plan to be more secure. Unluckily we do not have a lifeguard in our rows but we would extend our Kiez if any professional Lifeguard (or more) wanna join the Pirates. No usage of the Lake would as well destroy our dream - the water island. I am happy to join a "Taskforce-Swimming" @Nora Flora @Veroca R. Sala .IF KORG would decide for a "no swimming" policy - dunno if we as Pirates then wanna be the camp telling everyone NOT to swim.. that would be very frustrating.

MeTaMiNd eVoLuTioN

MeTaMiNd eVoLuTioN June 22nd, 2021 18:34

would be interesting to evolve this new branch of "Lake Rangers" ...

who know about biology of the lake ecosystem, and also are trained water life guards.

as well participated in the DLRG junior-life-guard program as a child, and been wondering what it takes to get fully qualitfied to take water life guard shifts at festivals in the future.

once all the legal paperwork is in order, it seems doable to me to have like 2 hours a day where people can swim, or perform in the water at night briefly (in the future).

combine it with the water-guns and sprayers it could also be very fun for all involved :)

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 22nd, 2021 15:25

ooooh.... can you add a lake shift for Rangers and equip them with super soakers (powerful water cannons) and then blast anyone that tries to enter the lake?

Erin Jeavons-Fellows

Erin Jeavons-Fellows June 22nd, 2021 11:56

As previous pirate lead, there were always people on the shore, we were a chill camp during the day time so we were one of the popular day hangout camps (at least 20 people on the shore at any point in time). We didn't "guard" the beach but there were always people watching and we took care of people who were swimming and had no issues AT ALL. We had a rule, no swimming in the lake at night, which people respected.
One of the nice things about Freiland is the lake. super disappointed if this goes. We had signs still from last year that we had no swimming in the lake at night also.
I am not pirate lead this year, but @daniel no can weigh in on this topic alot.

I totally disagree with this initiative. Making more work for ourselves.

Erin Jeavons-Fellows

Erin Jeavons-Fellows June 22nd, 2021 11:49

@daniel no best to comment here.

Erin Jeavons-Fellows

Erin Jeavons-Fellows June 22nd, 2021 11:44

This has never been an issue in previous years. We have had the rule we do not swim at night or alone. 👎👎👎👎👎👎

Jessie

Jessie June 22nd, 2021 10:31

The Rangers will be equipped with handheld Spray Bottles, so we can run around and refresh everyone who wants. You or me could add that in your proposal, if you like.

Cris

Cris June 22nd, 2021 10:09

Maybe at the end eutrophication will do all the work for us. As pointed out, in August the water may look sooo disgusting, that no hippie will dare to set foot on it.

I liked the idea of the island closing the beach as a fence (if someone's up for it) Btw, you don't need any fence, in front of the beach there's a little "swimming pool" no deeper than 1m aprox. with sand floor, closed up with the high grass, communicated with the "open waters" with just a corridor of about 1,5-2 m wide.

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 22nd, 2021 09:15

Maybe just tell everyone about the snakes in the lake, then problem solved. :-D Did anyone get pictures of the snakes?

Diarmaid

Diarmaid June 22nd, 2021 07:30

So overall it looks like there will be no swimming in the lake (I am not going to organise it, it looks like way too much work). Where does this leave us with the dreams? Should we allow the water island to be built, with the requirement that there is a bridge to it? Or should we just ban them from using it?

What about the mermaid dream? If @Nora Flora is able to find a life guard, should we also allow this to happen?

Diarmaid

Diarmaid June 22nd, 2021 07:29

For sure not the dream guides :).

If we were allowing people in the sandy edge of the shore, I would think building the fence should be the responsibility of the general build team, as this fence would be a safety critical structure. But allof the details (e.g. where the fence should go, how deep the water is, do we need a permit, etc.) would have to be figured out by a lake realiser, who would also be in charge of ensuring the corralled off area was safe. If Nora is happy to do all that, great, if not, then no swimming :(.

Mareike

Mareike June 22nd, 2021 07:05

I agree with Vero. Having a swimmable lake adds another huge potential risk on our already kind of risky event plan this year. Plus the environmental aspect. There are animals in the lake (ducks, frogs, fish, snakes (yes, I didn't hallucinate this!)) who will probably be under a loooooot of stress if there are people jumping in every 5 seconds. If there is someone stepping up and fencing off the shore of the lake, okay maybe. But I also think we can get creative with other ways to refresh. Love the firetruck idea! Or lets bring tiny pools etc.

Bee

Bee June 21st, 2021 21:35

Thanks so much for looking into this Nora. Yes unfortunately there will be more than alcohol for a lot of folk and the risk of accidents is much higher (no pun intended). As a fellow board member to Vero I too would hate to have to handle the worst case scenario of allowing free swimming, especially considering there have been cases at other European burns where people have drowned. I would be hesitant to come to any conclusion that doesn't place some considered restrictions for the sake of safety.

We may well end up with a dry summer and not pleasant lake by August anyhow and then it would be ill advised for other reasons. I'm a water lover too and am sad at not being able to swim, but I have responsiblity for more than myself in this choice.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 21st, 2021 20:24

2019 the lake had little water flow so it was muddy and ugly to be in. That kept hippies away.

2018 Im not sure, but it was a smaller event

2017 was in a different location

Nora Flora

Nora Flora June 21st, 2021 20:19

Last 3 questions @Bee @Professor Kaos @Veroca R. Sala
(How did this work at the past KiezBurns? No swimming?
Has it ever been evaluated to hire life guards even just for Saturday and Sunday?
Or was there never swimming and the lake closed off?)

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 21st, 2021 20:18

I d say we could touch it! hehe, but not swim! Lol

Nora Flora

Nora Flora June 21st, 2021 20:15

Firetruck!

Nora Flora

Nora Flora June 21st, 2021 20:11

@Purzel That would be great if you could find out too. I find it hard to get some proper info on our whole scenario, but will keep looking.

Nora Flora

Nora Flora June 21st, 2021 20:10

I think it is not only distance from the shore but also how deep it is.
DLRG also says you need a certain amount of life guards for

a) amount of people
b) size of lake
c) age and if there are Nichtschwimmer (non-swimmers going in)

Given our event size + consumption it unfortunately looks not really great for swimming (and I would be the last to say this) but the DLRG wanted to send me some info and I can try to find out what happens if we mark a specific area. I think chances are bigger we will need to say - no lake this year, but can still look into it.

I might have to modify my DREAM. 😆

Nora Flora

Nora Flora June 21st, 2021 20:06

If we need to say there's absolutely no swimming/touching the lake, these proposals sound good. 👍

Nora Flora

Nora Flora June 21st, 2021 19:58

Hello,
as a mermaid I was a bit in shock that we cannot swim. I was totally unaware of this.

I just called the DLRG and asked some questions about life guard stuff at a lake/event.
I used to do swimming competitions and had a junior life guard training, which I have been thinking to repeat (except the junior...).

I am a total water enthusiast but after talking to this woman from the DLRG is pretty clear to me that at an event where people drink (she did not even consider other substances...) a life guard is taking on a crazy amount of responsibility and potentially endangering her/himself.
It might also be hard to find volunteers, but surely cannot know without asking.

A small section to swim in at a specific time is maybe still an option though?!
Will we be able to stop people to swim in other places? Or is it better to have a small shallow section to refresh rather than nothing?


I would be up for this lead and evaluating the swim options if we think this makes sense to still evaluate.

How did this work at the past KiezBurns? No swimming?
Has it ever been evaluated to hire life guards even just for Saturday and Sunday?
Or was there never swimming and the lake closed off?

Purzel

Purzel June 21st, 2021 18:55

It´s not about the distance and more about the depth. I'd say about 1,20m would be the max. but thats only a guess, if we get more serious about it, I could check on more correct numbers. If I remember right, the drop to "not beeing able to stand anymore" was rather sudden.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 21st, 2021 18:09

I vote for not making the lake swimmable, but I also propose a way to enforce this by raising awareness.

I don't want to underestimate our community and assume all participants will go on the water despite all the valid reasons we have to not allow it. I consider that making public the rules and its reasons should suffice.

I have legal responsibility for the safety of participants, and I am at this point not willing to take the lead to make this happen safely.

I will not get involved in any further discussion in this regard as I think I have been clear in the previous comments.

If someone wants to take the lead and create a solid procedure to allow people swim in the lake, , go ahead I can only review the potential proposal once ready and I could resign from the board position if the proposal is not SAFE for my understanding, because I don't want to bear the consequences around this.

To implement the non-lake policy I propose:

  1. Signs lead: making signs with the environmental and nonenvironmental reasons why is not allowed to swim in the lake.

  2. Work on raising awareness pre event via newsletter and comms WHY we don't allow hippies in the lake. Here we can work on the Draft for the Newsletter realizer @Nora Flora

  3. To promote other ways to keep hippies nice and cool like the water spray bottle. Add it in the Survival guide. volunteering myself to do this

  4. mark perimeter

  5. Recommend/promote the showers.

  6. The only way to enforce it is to make the rule clear and make clear the consequences if these rules are ignored.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 21st, 2021 17:06

i see you address here @Diarmaid yo say, "We could sweep the area" or "We fence off", its unclear who is these "we"... the dream guides? cause if there isn't a name responsible for things to happen, from experience, these will not happen...

Jessie

Jessie June 21st, 2021 16:49

I really enjoyed to swim in the lake, but I also share Purzels concern about the ecosystem.
There is already a lack of time, so I would also say, we close the lake for the event and look for an alternative to cool down.
If the result is, that people are allowed to swim, I would recommend, that people would wear swim shoes and also, that the lake is only open at the pirate side.


Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 21st, 2021 16:11

sounds good...I wonder who will afford that fence? Who will do the fence? general build? the pirates themselves? who who who? Lol...

Diarmaid

Diarmaid June 21st, 2021 15:49

We could also say that a preformed is allowed only if they are able to provide a qualified life guard

Diarmaid

Diarmaid June 21st, 2021 15:47

We would have to build a fence, from the water island to the shore if Water Island gets funded and the pirates agree, otherwise just corralling in the area

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 21st, 2021 14:48

interesting bee😎, however still will mean a lot of work around it + having as Purzel says: more non-hippies around in order to have qualified guards. These cannot be simple volunteers from the crowd.

I would like it if we plan this better for next year with bathing times in the afternoon for the hottest hours.

There is a lot at risk here... I mean, this is not an event risk, but life of participants.

I still vote for No, unless we can come to an agreement to only use the shore.

Lets say 5 meters from the edge or something like that. @Purzel what distance from the shore would be safe?

Even at the shore, the pirates will make sure people are rinsed before going in? creams and stuff?

Bee

Bee June 21st, 2021 14:39

Another idea - having set 'bathing times' for people to swim so that the lifeguards can be on duty only for certain times / this allows for the water based Dreams also to function.

Bee

Bee June 21st, 2021 14:36

While this proposal is still open the answer is unfortunately 'we don't know yet'. If we cannot organise lifeguards and find a lead for this then we would have to avoid encouraging swimmers with a lake ban - meaning the floating dreams won't be accessible. Perhaps we can come to an agreement with these in mind - see Cris' valid suggestion underneath, if this works as a health & safety friendly compromise.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 21st, 2021 14:35

Sounds good, however, we need to have consent from the pirates IF they will actually guard their shore.

  • who will seriously enforce their boat doesnt go off-limits?

  • how do we marK perimeter in the water?

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 21st, 2021 14:35

this is being discussed now 🤓

Bee

Bee June 21st, 2021 14:30

I like the idea of only shore-side dip spots and a shower as a middle ground. Could also mean pirates potentially could be the guardians of the waters with their structure, if funded by Dreams, being the swim perimeter.

Lis

Lis June 21st, 2021 14:19

Hey everyone! The Dreams Team is having a meeting right now and we need to know if we should approve dreams inside the lake. There are two "Water Island" and "Magical Mermaid Lake". Thank you very much in advance for commenting! Love, The Dreams Crew

Purzel

Purzel June 21st, 2021 13:59

Thank you Alex for your proposal I had a similiar idea and you beat me to it (less work for me;) )

From a First Aid Point of view I dont see concerns as long as we have certified Life Guards on duty. I made the training years ago and am not certified anymore but I would like to add that they might need materials to get people who require help out of the water, such as Boards or rescue rings.

For any structure beeing build on the beach, please keep in mind that the Fire Dpeartment need to access the water with a firetruck at all times.

@Natron Deo pitched the idea to hire local professionals, they are usually rather young and don´t cost much. Given all the lockdowns they might be hungry for the work but it would put another dent in our budget and we end up with more non-hippies on site.

On a personal note, I dont look forward to the job of trying to keep people out of the lake but the potential impact on the ecosystem worries me, given all the glitter, make up, body paint, skin cells, Sunscreen of 950 hippies for 5 days.

If we end up banning the lake for swimming (which is the more likely scenario imho) we should consider other means for us to cool down, like mist showers or something. I´ll talk to the FD wether they are able to come with a firetruck and cool us down with a nice rain out of their hoses, I've been to many festivals where they did that and it was always a highlight for people.

Diarmaid

Diarmaid June 21st, 2021 11:03

I like the halfway proposal - if we can fence off so that the water doesn't go above neck height, it becomes much less dangerous. It would provide a clear demarcation between where was allowed to swim and where was not, making the jobs of rangers much easier. It would remove the danger of stepping on broken glass, because the water is very clear and we could sweep the area to ensure that it was clean.

We would need to provide showers beside it so that people can wash off first, and clearly sign that this is required.

Diarmaid

Diarmaid June 21st, 2021 10:59

Pirate Kiez would like to build an island there.

Cris

Cris June 21st, 2021 10:47

Mja, tricky one!

If August gets, as expected, VERY hot, my concern would be that enforcing the ban may create at the end more work than the proposal #1. Including the surveillance and all the discussions with the drunk hippies. And this wont change the fact, that peeps may still get in the water regardless.

I wonder if there's a halfway alternative, in which a little part of the beach's waters are demarcate, between the high grass, where it's just sand and very low waters, enough to dip in a bit, or sit down. (Contamination problem still there though)

Also, some Pirates around in Talk (@Daniel Dinse) ? In case they have plans to conquer the waters again.

CJ Yetman

CJ Yetman June 21st, 2021 10:15

I'd feel safest if the lake was clearly defined and marked as off limits.

Bee

Bee June 21st, 2021 09:25

I appreciate and would echo these concerns. I also am quite concerned about the fact we already had a lake injury this weekend that could have been a lot worse given the huge chunk of broken bottle that was recovered from the lake bed near the shore. I have absolutely no idea how we would be able to ensure the lake is also safe from things like that before letting our inebriated Burners splash around.

Going ahead and tagging @Franzi for safety protocols input. @Hans for first first aid input @Jessie and @Cris for any rangers knowledge. Also @CJ Yetman as this could ultimately add a layer of responsibility for site leads.

Veroca R. Sala

Veroca R. Sala June 21st, 2021 09:09

Thanks alex, As much as I like the idea of swimming on the lake, I don't think is wise to push this with the time we have to actually create a safe procedure to which I, as a participant and as a board member can comfortably rely on.

I value the intention and will love to swim on that lake, but this will need far more attention than what the board and Korg has to offer to this IMO (for review and discussion).

Covid is already a load of work and attention, even though we have a team assigned, the board and Korg need to be on top of it to align. This responsibility (lake) is not something the Korg can just assign somebody and forget, we will need to be on top of it to ensure we cover all risk aspects.

We had one member of the Orga almost sinking this weekend just because underestimating the size of the lake and tried to swim across the lake. The person was totally sober and it was at daylight, Ended up in the bushes by the shore and rescued by Myriam in front of my eyes.

In addition, i also believe is a great risk to contaminate the lake ( do, creams, pee etc) it's hard to enforce people not to use skin products and not to pee in it. No Lake crew can prevent this to happen and we will be leaving a big trace on that beautiful lake.

I don't support this initiative.