(Closed) Proposal to switch from Loomio to Reddit
## Proposer (name, handle, etc.):
## Proposer’s role:
I do things.
# The advice process
## Information gathered before posting
Drunken conversations at bars. A week spent with some of the developers of Loomio on a farm in Sweden. Proprietary information about what Reddit is planning. Reading lots of self-organizy (anarchist) shit. Having been using the Internet since dial-up.
## People/roles most affected by this proposal
The seven people here on talk.kiezburn.org.
## People/roles with the most knowledge and experience relevant to this proposal:
- Talk guides
- @Purzel, @Kate, formerly @Veroca R. Sala @Professor Kaos
# The proposal
Our needs for collaboration tools are:
* A way to disemmenate news
* A place to have discussions
* A way to make decisions
* A store of knowledge
* A way to coordinate
* A place to hang out
Lately we've started using Discord which I think is great, and fulfills the last two points on the list very well.
News disimmenation is the newsletter and Telegram, which also seems to be going well.
Talk/Loomio is supposed to fulfill the discussions and decisions parts. We do not have a store of knowledge, as information discovery on this platform is near impossible.
#### Loomio as a place to have discussions
The moderation tools on here are abysmal, and most "discussions" seem to be very long posts taking at each other. Happy to elaborate if somebody actually needs more reasons.
#### Loomio as a place to make decisions
Without good discussions there are no good decisions.
#### Loomio as a chore
Recently there was a security thing where data got lost. It needs to be upgraded. It probably has some nasty bugs waiting to be discovered.
## The proposal
We sunset Loomio and keep it as a historical document.
We adopt the r/kiezburn wiki, "Decided" advice procesees are copied to the wiki together with other "static" information like the kiez guide.
We move all activity from here over to r/kiezburn, using badges and tags to organisie threads.
APs are kept in their current format, but on a different platform (using a badge to filter them). There's been talk of changing them, but that's out of scope here.
## How would the proposal be implemented
We set up redirections from Loomio over to Reddit, and announce on our usual channels. We set up a mod team that can make the subreddit nice.
## Who would implement this proposal
You and me <3 Together.
## When would this proposal be implemented
I can do it now.
## What would be the cost (time, money, effort, etc.) of this proposal
It's a lot less effort than keeping Loomio. The danger is slight loss of control over user accounts, but we're not taking advantage of that anyway.
## What are the advantages of this proposal (relative to the current situation and/or counter-proposals)
The opportunity to make a nice place online for us.
## What are the disadvantages of this proposal (relative to the current situation and/or counter-proposals)
We relinquish some control compared to other alternatives discussed (like moving to some regular forum software), but we gain much more in features.
Not doing it, have a better idea that also involves setting this website on fire.
CJ Yetman Sun 27 Feb 2022 10:53AM
I have no love for Loomio, but... these perennial efforts to switch to yet another platform are frankly exhausting. There are pros and cons to all. To me, it's not super clear how any of the options are miles ahead of any other. Some of the points here, like the length/style of discussions, would likely continue regardless of what platform we use... they're more of a community effect than a technology effect I would guess.
Kaliope Wed 2 Mar 2022 2:34PM
Thanks for bringing this proposal @Kris and for seeking our advice! I used to be a fan of this idea too 😌 However, with current knowledge and experience, I would argue against it – especially since that would be open heart surgery, our planning for this year has already started. Talk is not perfect, but to have quicker discussions and better connect with each other we just moved to another new platform, Discord. This already helps a lot. Getting the website up and running again, cleaning up our drive and storing data more securely is a priority now....
What I really appreciate about Talk is the ability to create links, lists, tables and lots of text clearly above the discussion to summarize the most important points. In threads, that often gets lost and can't be easily updated. Also, this is our archive for the last few years. Maybe many Kiez Burners just think they can't handle this platform because they've never received an introduction and checked it out properly? The escalating discussions thing just highlights our capacity to be respectful of each other (or not) – I think that would happen on other platforms as well.
All in all, I think it's less about technical solutions or more innovative tools, but about knowledge gaps! So let's better organize a workshop on how we make decisions and how we use Talk? (edit: or on how to be nice to each other :P)
edit 2: Aren't Reddit and Discord quite similar...?
Kitt Fri 4 Mar 2022 1:46AM
TL;DR - this will probably be a no-brainer to most people already using reddit and I don't feel strongly enough to oppose the measure, but I proposes these gentle challenges. I mostly lurk and read everything on talk and discord. I have used reddit on and off for probably 8-10 years.
I don't see anything reddit does better than Discord, which already has 200+ people on it. I think we're just starting to scratch the surface of what we can build there. I can think of a few things that reddit imo does worse (I prefer the channels over threading on reddit, discord has voice tools.) I also have a personal preference on staying on a platform that has no advertising (no commerce principle) and no plans for advertising. We can host our own server on Discord. And honestly, I've found reddit a really hostile environment and anti-discussion... that's not to say our corner of it wouldn't be great, I just feel like it would be uphill to hold space on reddit if people are already used to communicating a certain kind of way. I also think the 'immediacy' of having a bubble that is KB-only within discord is helpful --> if someone I'm burning with is being an asshole on another subreddit I really don't need to have access to it, it wouldn't be within moderation to bring it up with that person (plus, time and energy,) and it seems a massive faff for people to create kb-specific accounts. (For reddit-naieve folks, if you click on someone's username on reddit you can see their post history in other subreddits, which might include political, humour or 18+ boards.) Heck, I would have to create an alt as I don't want certain personal content linked back to KB.
it sounds like you're also suggesting a wiki? In which case why not Discord + wiki? I don't think Reddit is any good for archiving, or at least I've not seen any of the tools for that, I could be wrong.
I'm not going to be moderating it nor have I moderated Loomio, so I can't comment on that. I've found Loomio fine, though annoying at times, so I'm up for refining the process, but I think this only makes sense if someone is already an avid reddit user. I guess I wonder whether bots show up more to reddit or discord, and how easy is it to automate/train people to minimise their impact.
THAT SAID a casual reddit seems like it could be okay? Easy way to share pictures (with consent)? I guess burns feel very immediate to me, and I'm less interested in a social news aggregator that collects what is popular... Perhaps we would have the same problem of folks feeling like they've said their peace on a couple of social channels but it never impacting a result/reaching the busy people who are doing the thing. Like, someone might volunteer to help with something or raise a concern on reddit, and it would have to travel back to whatever core platform we are using...
Jaina Hirai Fri 4 Mar 2022 9:41AM
I, as a non-Reddit user, am strongly opposed to switching from Loomio to Reddit. It took me 2 years to get used to Talk and to use it regularly. Please do not switch the platform again! Please. I am begging, let’s leave Discord and Loomio as our main ways of comms, at least for 2022.
Kaliope Sun 6 Mar 2022 12:00PM
Who is ok with pausing this proposal until Kiez Burn 2022 has happened? I have the impression that there are very ambivalent opinions out there.
The activity happening on Talk before the event will definitely increase significantly... Last year we used Telegram instead of Discord, and Talk still ran hot.
I've done a lot of communication for Kiez Burn and my own camp, plus I'm in it professionally. At least from this perspective, a change during ongoing planning would make not much sense.
Kris Thu 7 Apr 2022 3:35AM
Paused is a bullshit state for this proposal to be in. We need a new decision regime, and I want to focus on that instead of the forum aspect. The latter is just a tool after all. Opening another AP in due time.
walto Fri 8 Apr 2022 7:29PM
@Kris I love the drive and super support us moving away from Loomio. I know this is now closed, but I would like to suggest moving to Discourse. It is the 21st century loomio and offers all we need plus waaaay more. I have in the past given some examples of how it could help, happy to also talk to you in case this interest you + help out in the transition.
As potentially inspiring in this regard: https://talk.theborderland.se/d/wlsCaGWx/migrating-talk-from-loomio
Kris Fri 4 Mar 2022 11:05AM
I'm suggesting moving this particular kind of discussion to Reddit :)
Reddit also has a decent wiki integrated, see something like r/skincareaddiction for a subreddit that uses it well. We could have a separate one, but then again discoverability suffers.
Kitt Fri 4 Mar 2022 1:55AM
I think Burning Nest uses Loomio pretty well...and I would say the transparency of Talk is helpful as someone who reads everything about the event. I know I can ignore facebook telegram (and probably discord) as long as I read Talk and the survival guide (and the newsletter,) then I will know probably 95% of what has been an issue, what is going to happen, and who to ask about what.
Kris Fri 4 Mar 2022 12:32PM
I hear that you don't want to spend energy on this.
I'm not sure if the timing matters a lot, does Loomio become more critical closer to the event? It seems most things move over to Telegram/Discord then since we need to be snappy.
It does sound like Loomio was a pain to get into and you assume other platforms are the same. I'd posit that other platforms are easier to pick up and that we have to think of all the new people that can skip the pain of onboarding to Loomio.
Kris Mon 14 Mar 2022 3:22PM
The event is not actually that far away. I'd rather have a decision on this with the caveat that we don't go do comms around until after the event, but that enables us to start the preparations since it's not a trivial thing to do.
Alex Kaos Fri 4 Mar 2022 10:05AM
I don't believe the proposal is suggesting to move away from Discord. It's just a Loomio->Reddit switch.
Alex Kaos Sun 6 Mar 2022 12:26PM
I would be inclined to agree that a full transfer is too late now. But it's good that the conversation started.
I would re-iterate the idea of certain teams trialing reddit as a substitute platform would be very helpful for reviewing this proposal after the event, when we could instigate a slow migration.
So area leads, just keep it in mind.
Kitt Thu 7 Apr 2022 10:45PM
Don't know what you mean by 'bullshit state' but sounds good to open this after KB 2022, looking forward to the discussion then <3
Kris Fri 8 Apr 2022 2:45AM
There's a list of potential states for APs in the guidance (I think). "Paused" doesn't make any sense, you're either gathering advice or not (and yes, I am miffed that someone just went ahead and put "paused" on there). I've thrown in a topic about this at the unconference (sorry, I mean KiezCon 22) with a different angle that's hopefully more constructive.
Kris Sun 10 Apr 2022 3:24AM
Thanks :) I was part of that discussion at BL and have thought long and hard about it - and it's better, but I don't think Discord is good enough.
I have a proposal that I need to write. I want to bring a "from first principles" approach to solving this at KiezCon.
Kris Sun 27 Feb 2022 12:03PM
They are miles ahead of each other though. We seem to successfully be migrating from Facebook and Telegram to Discord, I’m sorry it’s exhausting but it does make a difference.
The posts being long is just an example, there are plenty of other things wrong - like discoverability. Moving to Reddit would have an immediate effect on post length I think, because with the default settings it’s easier to determine the value of a long post.
Kris Wed 2 Mar 2022 2:58PM
Reddit looks much more than Loomio (this place) than Discord. I suggest checking it out, there's already a Kiez Burn subreddit: https://reddit.com/r/kiezburn/. It's pretty sparse with not a lot of things in there yet, but you get the general sense of it. Instead of having lots of categories and subcategories, most large subreddits use tags to filter different types of post. It's a forum, and not a chat.
I'm not sure if Talk is crucial for Korg to be honest, there are a few things that are relevant that's easy to copy out, but the day to day is mostly done in chats? Maybe some korgis can chime in?
I'm against sinking more work into this platform tbh. It's a pain in the ass just to keep it running*, and even if it was a simple matter of teaching people how to use it - why bother when we can teach people to use something easier? I'd also suggest looking at other Loomio users, like Borderland, it's not going much better there :P
*(I'm pretty sure email might be broken again so people can't log in or sign up with email ...)
Kris Wed 2 Mar 2022 3:01PM
Quoting myself here:
* A way to disseminate news (Discord, Telegram)
* A place to have discussions (Here, or Reddit)
* A way to make decisions (Here, or Reddit)
* A store of knowledge (Reddit)
* A way to coordinate (Discord)
* A place to hang out (Discord)
Discord is not suitable for having (formal) discussions, decisions, or as an archive. Reddit works well for that, Loomio is failing pretty badly at some aspects related to that like discoverability and moderation.
Alex Kaos · Sat 26 Feb 2022 5:56PM
Love it. I'm down. I think change is wonderful and terrifying and the 7 current talk users are probably tech savy enough to figure out Reddit. Let me know how I can help