PROPOSAL: Swimming pools instead of swimming in the lake
i would like to propose the use of swimming pools around kiezes
this idea has not been born from the fact we cant swim in the lake, this proposal has been born from a safety perspective,
the feuerwehr requires us to have a minimum of 1000Liters of water around each camp, more is always better
when there are no unexpected fires, this water will be unused and thrown out,
so i was thinking, how can we still do something useful with this water, and swimmingpools seem to be a good solution for this,
Camps can bring their swimmingpool, ofcourse this will not be mandetory, if they dont bring a swimmingpool they get a cube provided by freiland (not for drinking water)
Camps need to register their swimmingpool before XX.XX.XXXX and it needs to be at least 1500 Liter Capacity (some might evaporate or splash out)
Water team will fill this swimmingpool for them
Issues to overcome:
Where to dump the water afterwards (is an issue regardless of using swimming pool or mandatory water cubes)
Water gets dirty, chlorine cant be disposed in the nature, but there are clean pumps, don't know if this is enough to keep the water fresh for 4 days,
who is affected by this:
Covid-team @Hanna-Maija (Animal) can we have swimming pools at all?
fire-Safety @Purzel does the feuerwehr allow pumping from swimmingpool?
Purzel Mon 19 Jul 2021 7:18PM
Weee still waiting for some more feedback from the board.
The pump is not mandatory, it's more a suggestion that the water doesn't turn into human soup. The fire department won't care whether the water is green or clear. 😉
If you use something like the stuff you mention, please make really sure it's biodegradable and not just a marketing slogan. (I say that without having done any readership on it myself)
Personally your concept sounds pretty solid to me. 😊💪
Alex Kaos Tue 20 Jul 2021 9:13AM
I agree with @Cris, @Mareike, @Purzel, @Sven Dudink and anyone on that frame.
Pools are nowhere near as dangerous as the lake. The biological harm is the only factor for consideration by the board.
The hygiene element for me is more of a "Choose your own danger level" discussion. If you jump in a filthy pool at an event you might get sick, people concerned about hygiene will likely avoid these things anyways.
Put the 3 signs up:
1- Max 2 people at a time
2 - Use at own risk
3- Don't use under the influence
and cover it at night.
Then I'm fine with it. Might be cool..... pardon the pun...
Fernando Segundo Wed 21 Jul 2021 8:13AM
Not an expert, but found this:
Seems eco friendly and cheap
Veroca R. Sala Wed 21 Jul 2021 8:17AM
I second the general opinion of my fellow boardies here, paste as reference:
Id say yes to pools (up to 70cm high). Camps need to put up a sign saying: 1. max. nr of people 2. using at own risk 3. don't use when under the influence. Put a tarp over it during the night (and when not used - might keep it a little cleaner also). Put some lights next to it so nobody stumbles in.
Alex Kaos Thu 22 Jul 2021 8:14AM
I think our budget can accommodate the water use. The site in general would probably prefer the extra grey water (uneducated opinion here) than no extra water.
And we have a perogative to protect the lakes. They are shrinking every year, we should not be taking water out.
Veroca R. Sala Thu 22 Jul 2021 3:40PM
Here moderator/admin pasting this comment above onto the water thread for documentation
Lise Wed 4 Aug 2021 9:59AM
Sorry for testing your patience @Sven Dudink, one more: the person who brings our pool cannot arrive at KB before Wednesday night/Thursday morning. Will it still be possible to get the pool filled on Thursday or does it have to happen on Wednesday?
Sven Dudink Wed 4 Aug 2021 11:14AM
@Lise , it would actually need to happen earlier, the main purpose of the pools is fire security, its part of our agreement with the local authorities that we provide over the duration of the whole event, filling up that pool also takes around 3-4 hours, when done during the event it will also take a good amount of pressure away, so the earlier it is on site the better
Lise Mon 9 Aug 2021 11:36AM
Hi @Sven Dudink, We're trying to get our pool to KB earlier, but the earliest we can get it there is Wednesday around midday/afternoon (then have to set it up). Is that still timely enough / can we be the last stop on the water-fill tour around the site? 😁
Purzel Fri 25 Jun 2021 9:18PM
They have used this System with the water cubes already.
I reckon if the water stays Bio degradable we will do that area a favor if we dumb the water on site. Given the dryness of the area.
Veroca R. Sala Fri 25 Jun 2021 10:41PM
So people should still care about sunscreen. Thinking we should just openly encourage all burners to use bio sunscreen in the survival guide and comms
Sven Dudink Sun 27 Jun 2021 10:17AM
Pepper maybe ? (Might not be great for eyes and bathingsuit area) 😜
Erin Jeavons-Fellows Wed 14 Jul 2021 10:56AM
Seems i miscalculated, its not 1.2m. its 76 cms which is better. My concerns still stand :(
Erin Jeavons-Fellows Wed 14 Jul 2021 10:59AM
PS. here is a suggested pool with the pump that is recommended to keep the water clean during the event
Sven Dudink Wed 14 Jul 2021 12:30PM
Hi @Erin Jeavons-Fellows, thanks for reaching out and posting your concerns, the part about the lake is from my side very easy, I did not put a clear title in my proposal, it should have been replacing fire safety cubes with swimming pools, I would like to create this regardless of the lake,
the pool suggested here is huge, the need from the fire department is 1000 liters, these swimming pools have a capacity of 6500Liter, so even filling them up to 12 centimeters is technically enough,
none of the less, your concern about people passing out is something I did not think about, and I'm happy you bring it up, when someone passes out, I think water depth means very little, anything enough to reach the mouth when laying is a potential drowning danger, this includes wading pools,
I have no idea how big this risk is, maybe we should obligate camps to put a sign from when to when using the pool, a warning not to be alone, or warning not to consume alcohol/substances, I am not sure if anyone would listen to those signs. I find this hard to really give a right answer, because I don't know certain data, I know if a pool is deep enough, drowning from passing out, cramps or exhaustion are a serious risk.
With 76 centimeter, I don't know how big these risks are so the same for me counts, I can only give an unprofessional opinion, and that would be safety first in this case, so it would be great to have input from someone with professional experience, maybe a lifeguard or medical has a better understanding of that? @Purzel would you have some input?
CJ Yetman Wed 14 Jul 2021 9:33PM
I think that’s what the suggestions of using bio-chlorine or
salt were for… to keep the water “clean”.
Sven Dudink Thu 15 Jul 2021 7:51AM
actually to my understanding, the pump is there to clean bigger particles, such as sand, dust and so on, it doesnt seems to fully stop algea and bacteria growth,
for that the biodegradable pool desinfectant might be a good solution
for cleaning the pool there might be another way, i grabbed this from the internet and i would like to have this fact checked and calculated well, tabwater itself smetimes already contains a small amount of chlorine, and chlorine dissipates quick, so putting chlorine in the beginning of the week should cover the swimming pool for some days, and when the swimmingpools are left alone over strike all chlorine should have bin dissipated, again, i don't have the tools or understanding of how quick the chlorine should be dissipating, so before going for this solution someone with the right understanding should take a look into this
Cris Fri 16 Jul 2021 10:01AM
I didn't want to get very involved in this topic, because I don't have real professional feedback, nor much bandwidth.
My guts tell me that hippies could potentially die in every bit of grass, glass of water, or 15cm high step, but they tend not to. So I don't see a real danger in the pools, personally. Anyway, no hard opinion here, I trust you, Leute.
Cris Fri 16 Jul 2021 9:57AM
if pepper, then also some "gebratene" onions, carrots and paprika. Olive oil, of course garlic, 30 min slow fire, and call the cook on shift.
Sven Dudink Fri 16 Jul 2021 10:20AM
in that case we might have to reconsider the material of the swimming pools, I'm not sure if PVC is heat resistant enough for this method
Mareike Mon 19 Jul 2021 7:34PM
Id say yes to pools (up to 70cm high). Camps need to put up a sign saying: 1. max. nr of people 2. using at own risk 3. don't use when under the influence. Put a tarp over it during the night (and when not used - might keep it a little cleaner also). Put some lights next to it so nobody stumbles in. thats just my personal opinion, the Board will vote on and communicate a final decision asap
Sven Dudink Thu 22 Jul 2021 6:11PM
Cool, just curious about the Max 2 people at a time, is this a covid rule? or is this because of safety
Sven Dudink Mon 26 Jul 2021 3:21PM
Hi Lise, the water you will receive is standard tapwater, and will not contain chlorine, disposing of the water needs to happen a bit more carefully, we don't want to overflow the land, we have some thicker tubes and draining the pool over multiple spots, on a slow tempo should do the trick
Lise Mon 26 Jul 2021 2:34PM
Cool that this has been sorted! Can we have a final word on water supply (will Water team fill the pools?) and water disposal (what kind of water is going into the pools, does it contain chlorine? --> can we pour the water into the shrubs or not)? Thaaanks !
Purzel Mon 9 Aug 2021 8:39PM
Sven is on site already and busy with the set up, I'll try to remember to ask him when I see him
Erin Jeavons-Fellows Wed 14 Jul 2021 6:57PM
Thanks Sven <3 You made good points.
Its my understanding we run into some issues with keeping the water clean as the water needs to be of a certain depth to have the filter pump work and its my observation, this is where things get muddy - Pardon the pun). Maybe we can find smaller pools in diameter with filter pumps that are sufficient to keep the water clean for the duration of the event and encourage camps to cover them at sundown to discourage swimming at night.... Which I would argue then we have the same rules as we have had in previous years allowing people to swim in the lake; just more accessible pools, that we would have to monitor with more signs and more responsibility :(
I'm not sure what the solution is here. It's a difficult one!
Purzel Thu 15 Jul 2021 5:39PM
I´m sorry for the late response, life has been busy 🙂
Thank you @Erin Jeavons-Fellows for your feedback, I haven´t considered the aspect of people drowning in swimming pools.
@Sven Dudink You are basically right, there have been drunk AF people whom managed to drown in a small puddle. In conclusion there is no depth of water that we could deem safe. However, I met our fellow burner as a rather self reliant comunity, beeing able to handle themselves and the states of minds they might be in. But it´s also only my second Burn this year so I would trust those more experienced.
I´d still reckon a pool safer than swimming in the lake.
Saving yourself when you have a cramp or are exhausted is quite easy as you´re usually at arms length to the frame.
Same goes for someone saving someone else, it´s mostly possible to grab that someone while standing outside the pool rather than having to swim there.
I don´t have a handy solution here other than telling the camps to not get pools deeper than 1m (i.e) and trusting that nobody tries to take a pool-nap alone in the dark.
I´d like to leave that decision to the board, since they are the ones who are legally responsible.
We do have to reach a decision soon as we don´t have much time left. 🙂
Sven Dudink Thu 15 Jul 2021 8:10PM
Nearly all pools are less than 1 meter, the +1 meter pools are seriously expensive for what I saw right now, we could fill the pools till less deep if we come across such pool,
I agree with you @Purzel, we dont carry any of the legal responsibility, so maybe the board could help to make the decision of having pools or not, and if the risks outweigh the benefits :
@Veroca R. Sala
What do you guys think?
Alejandro Thu 15 Jul 2021 9:15PM
Yes to the pools. Yes to self-reliance. If someone feels like it will drown in a pool just dont get into the pool. Problem fix.
Mareike Wed 21 Jul 2021 4:18PM
hey @Sven Dudink , so most board members have already stated their opinion in the comments and we have also reached a conclusion that isn't much different. We (as the ones liable in case of an accident) feel that putting up small swimming pools is a much lower risk compared to swimming in the lake, also this does not harm the lake's ecosystem like swimming would. Still some risks always remain and using the pool - and basically anything you do at a Burn - always happens at your own risk.
So yey, Pools at KiezBurn!
But, we would ask every Kiez that puts up a pool to please do the following:
Figure out how to keep the water clean (or be okay with dirty water after a while) and dispose of it properly
Cover the Pool at night
Put up a sign saying:
Use at own risk
DON'T use when under the influence
Max. 2 people per pool
@Veroca R. Sala @Cris @Professor Kaos @Bee @Jan-Christian Kaspareit @Alejandro
@Erin Jeavons-Fellows to communicate with camps
@Purzel to communicate with feuerwehr (?)
Lise Mon 19 Jul 2021 2:28PM
Just throwing in here that Yalla pantha rei would also like to bring a big pool (2.5 m in diameter, approx. 5 m³ volume) if a decision is taken in favor of pools. I understand the water supply would not be an issue, but the pump is a condition, regardless of (biodegradable) chlorine in the water?
Regarding pool safety, we could cover the pool with a net or tarp after sunset (which wouldn't really keep anyone out if they really wanted to go in), put up a warning sign (use at own risk - do not swim after dark or under influence of anything - max. x people - no sunscreen or washing in the pool), and maybe leave a light on by the pool during the night, but will not have somebody watch the pool at all times. There might be nobody around at certain times. So we will only go ahead if there are no safety concerns / we do not have to assume responsibility for people's safety.
Erin Jeavons-Fellows Mon 12 Jul 2021 9:33AM
Id like to weigh in here. I speak from being the previous lead of pirate kiez who was down the lake. I am also kieze faciliation lead this year.
I have voiced my opinion about the silly rule about not being able to swim in the lake. I believe this rule to be silly for the reasons that we have had no experience of people swimming in the lake at night and the lake is a decent depth for quite some way out. The ability to wade to the knees or just lightly sit in the water is what most people do. The lake is not swam in by alot of people and there are about 20 minimum people on the shore during day light hours. We have had no incidences this far. I agree its not wise to assume that there would be none going forward. That is not my point.
In my “unprofessional” opinion replacing the lake with a series of pools across the playa could be more dangerous than the lake. I have spoken to the fire lead about what kinds of pools we are suggesting as a guide (as they need to have a filter pump) because i need to communicate this to the kieze. I am aware this is also to help the fire fighters in the case there was a fire but we’re suggesting and encouraging a variety of 1.2m pools to be distributed across site. I predict as a result there to be night swimming and more of it. 1.2m is taller than some children on the playa. I predict the pools to be a place to socialise as opposed to actively and calmly cool off. Also i personally have had an experience where ive had a friend pass out in a jacuzzi and ive had to lift her out. A jacuzzi at least has a step to sit on. I think with more people swimming, more accessible pools in fully lit areas where people are experiencing the affects of substances (in particular a tranquillising drug such as ketamine) - i perceive this to be more dangerous than allowing people day swimming in a shallow lake.
While id like to support the fire brigade in case of a fire, i believe the dangers we are introducing to be higher than the benefit of having pools, in the context of what we've agreed to give up (the lake). To me, this is absurd.
The kunst kunts (group of ex-pirates) may have a small wading pool and we will have spray misters but not participating in the pool endeavour and its our wish for others to also consider what dangers or commitments a pool in their kiez means. A 1.2m body of water of consistent depth is something that needs to be monitored at all hours, esp at the kiez that are in the quiet areas, at night, or early hours of the morning.
Sven Dudink Sat 26 Jun 2021 9:45AM
Here is another possible solution to keep water clean for the whole period, swimming pool salt, the water will taste like the ocean, i am just not sure about the environmental impact of disposing salty water, i read mixed storys, but it very much depends on the kind of landscape, it would be fantastic to have a Biologist onboard who has a better view on this topic
(I just heard salt is a supermoop and definitly terrible for the soil) so please no salt
Veroca R. Sala Fri 25 Jun 2021 8:51PM
I like this idea, def not chemicals in the water but im sure there are other eco-friendly options. The water might still get a bit nasty by day 2>3 but well... we cant have it all.
The Disposal is an issue. what Freiland says about this? What do they usually do or is it the first time they implement this resource or water cubes randomly placed?
Annette Thu 24 Jun 2021 2:54PM
I have to say that UnderWorld is already thinking about bringing a pool. Not final, but if its even very welcomed we would put some more effort into it!
Hanna-Maija (Animal) Thu 24 Jun 2021 12:36PM
I don't see problem with pools right now. We might have to add some rules to them, like how many people at a time etc. but as long as they are outdoors it's a soft yes from my side.
Sven Dudink Thu 24 Jun 2021 11:24AM
As one potential replacement for chlorine, I found this https://whirlpool-lounge.de/chlorfreie-Wasserpflege-biologische-Whirlpool-Wasserpflege-LIMBIO-Whirlpool-500-ml?curr=EUR&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2tCGBhCLARIsABJGmZ6vEol5h_SdVHYQxLN2cxzcnccA6Eng0GSFlIWEaM2kawWyo2zmK5EaAhYOEALw_wcB
the price tag seems a bit high but its actually for 14000Liter of water for 1 week
its a biodegradable replacement for chlorine, if this will be safe to dispose, i dont know, the input of a biologist would be very helpfull here
Purzel Thu 24 Jun 2021 11:07AM
I´ll double check but don´t see any problem from my side, it doesn´t matter much if they dump their pump in a water cupe or swimming pool :) I checked with the local FD and we have a green light.
One thing we should consider is what kind of water we´re using to fill them up (cubes or pools)
Lake water is messy and we don´'t want to drain the lake to much, in addition we would need pumps and hoses.
Fresh water could become expensive if we pay by the m³ and likely takes ages.
Sven Dudink · Thu 24 Jun 2021 11:18AM
We are connected to the water net, i talked with the aquarius realizer last year, and 1000Liter takes around 30 min, which puts the waterflow around 33L min, the water price today at Mecklenburg vollpomern is 1,66 euro per M³
Renting pumps and hoses, especially on such long distances will almost certainly surpass the costs of using clean water where we have hoses available for