Power and energy consumption
A place where we can Discuss about power,
things what come to mind now are:
•the source of the power
•how much power we will be needing for kiez burn 2019
•what can we do to keep our energy consumption as low as possible (E.G. Led lightning)
•who will be working on what
•which company will be renting out their equipment for our needs
•a way to measure our power consumption over the whole burn per camp with a timeline for upcoming years
probably there are still quiet a few points missing
@johannes5 @relativityrltvty You guys did the power last year, any suggestions? will you guys this year also be doing the power? are there more people who feel like helping out with the power?
if anyone has some stuff to add feel free to write whatever comes to mind (about power :D)
Henrik 🤖 Thu 21 Feb 2019 8:17PM
Reach out to the guys at "Communications!" https://talk.kiezburn.org/g/QFJUXcNq/communications
They can help you get the proper attention in the social media channels :sound: :scream_cat:
walto Wed 20 Feb 2019 10:15PM
Thanks Sven and CJ! This is the discussions on it last year: https://talk.kiezburn.org/g/GQkcR2sL/2018-archive-site-planning-water-power-signs
I was mainly involved with the planning together with Zach & Johannes, where Johannes, Rel & Zach (hope I didn't forget anybody) did a great job on-site. I'd be suuuuper happy to do a hand-off. In fact, happy to write a complete thing this weekend on what happened, when and potential resources :)
Sven Dudink Thu 21 Feb 2019 9:32AM
@cjyetman Okay that is great that you want to participate to organize the power with us, im not sure how we are going to start off with this, if i understand it right we have to apply for power also through the dreams platform, @waldo that would be great and very helpfull, thank you,
CJ Yetman Thu 21 Feb 2019 10:15AM
Yeah, that’s the part I’m not willing to do (dreams platform etc.). If you bring me a well-defined task, give me the authority to do it and the resources I need to do it (sufficient time, money, information, etc.), then I’ll get it done.
Henrik 🤖 Thu 21 Feb 2019 8:19PM
oh, now I get it. Makes sense. We will address this in the "How to Organize Art Grants"-Meeting
walto Mon 4 Mar 2019 10:48PM
The path and learnings of last year + responsibilities are mapped in realities now: https://kiezburn.org/create-a-kiez/
Also moving this thread to the power group
walto Sun 17 Mar 2019 4:03PM
@svendudink I heard you estimate power at less than we had last year. Last year we spent just above 8000€ for the generators, cables & cable road crossings. Given that we will be more people, more Kieze, I was surprised we could go lower than that? Are you sure?
Sven Dudink Sun 17 Mar 2019 6:37PM
@waldo no im not sure if we can get it cheaper, i will know the final answer when i get feedback from the power companys, i suppose this will be around wednesday
Poll Created Sun 24 Mar 2019 9:16PM
1st power meeting Closed Mon 1 Apr 2019 8:00PM
Lets get together for the first power meeting
There is still a lot to be done to build up kiez burn, one of them is power,
so it would be great to make a meeting where we can talk about how to organize the power and answer questions for power users on what we can and should not do,
we already have a working plan from last year, and now its time to build further on this plan so we can create a even better kiezburn,
For who is this meeting:
Everyone who is interested in a role helping to realize power
Artists and kiezes who will be using power
Everyone who has questions or suggestions about power or anyone who feels like they should be on this meeting
i put in some suggested dates, if you want to add a date feel free to do so
|Results||Option||% of points||Voters|
||Wednesday 17 April 19:00||33.3%||8||RR JB C KB DN H|
||Monday 8 April 19:00||12.5%||3||RR|
||Thuesday 9 April 19:00||12.5%||3||JB C|
||thursday 11 April 19:00||12.5%||3||JB C H|
||Monday 15 April 19:00||12.5%||3||RR JB|
||Thuesday 16 April 19:00||12.5%||3||JB C|
||Thursday 18 April 19:00||4.2%||1||JB|
|Undecided||0%||78||DU SE N L JT T RH J CD J NP JP H DL K L|
10 of 88 people have voted (11%)
Relativity Rltvty Mon 25 Mar 2019 10:12AM
I'll have to join remotely. I'll be in Austin, Texas for these dates and 7 hours behind y'all.
Saskia Sat 30 Mar 2019 10:43AM
I am unable to commit to any more meetings currently. i will see where the date falls and I will amke it if that evenening is still free
Sven Dudink Sun 7 Apr 2019 11:26AM
The first power meeting will be on the 17th of april, for now i can host the meeting at burgsdorfstrasse 15 13353 doorbell dudink, depending on how many people will be there this might still change last minute
walto Mon 8 Apr 2019 5:25PM
is this a meeting just for power helpers, or also for Kieze & artists wanting to know more?
Sven Dudink Tue 9 Apr 2019 5:47AM
The meeting will be mainly for helpers for power or people who need to know more about the infrastructure of the power this year, ofcourse everyone is welcome, for power questions about the kiezes i will be on the first kieze meeting and for artists i will be on the next dreams meeting
walto Tue 9 Apr 2019 8:15PM
Hey @svendudink how do we want to collect power requirements for infrastructure stuff? (so besides the Kieze, where we have the kieze registration form, and the art projects, where we have the dreams platform). Some infrastructure projects are on drams (e.g. rangers & welfare), but not sure if they actually put in the needed power there + some infrastructure is not covered there, such as first aid/feuerwehr etc.
Is there maybe already an overview?
Sven Dudink Wed 10 Apr 2019 9:02AM
@waldo this weekend i will be working on a overview/google maps layout (after precompression recovery :D) , and extend the excel for all the needs for infrastructure, build, strike, etc this will be online from 15.04,
Sven Dudink Sun 14 Apr 2019 9:53PM
Power is now added on the shared maps and is to be find overhere https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1fhpi3G7HS7TI4CG6PBHeF_3lgtDuK_XQ&ll=53.832565243110125%2C13.238831996917725&z=17
if you have any needs for infrastructure build or strike you can fill in your power needs here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1orbZ8w0-9Cb62yvR7jbGEG5Dcykk8cS18LIn1fkYvEY/edit?usp=sharing
as soon as there will be a lead for these roles we can get in contact and make a power plan
Sven Dudink Tue 16 Apr 2019 8:52PM
Hi everyone, the power meeting will be tomorrow 19:00 at burgsdorfstrasse 15 13353 Doorbell Sven Dudink
see you tomorrow
walto Mon 22 Apr 2019 7:03PM
I have added the 2 infrastructure projects that I remember, but there might be more. Also: I believe we might want to support gate & welfare in terms of power costs for these kind of public services.
Btw, could you store all power related google files in https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1X_FakR1a3QpLgk4KJoFLVeEZddusQC3o?usp=sharing please? Tnx!
Dylan (Lemon Camp) Fri 26 Apr 2019 9:19AM
@svendudink Can you quickly give me your input on these speaker specs for power consumption when you get a chance? on first sight it appears that the speakers are 500W, but looking closer in the specs they say 65w consumption. We are using the 500 model. Thanks for the help Sven! https://jp.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/7/322347/STAGEPAS500_300_datasheet.pdf
Sven Dudink Mon 29 Apr 2019 11:36AM
i have bin a bit busy these days, the power usage in this case will be max 65 watt so not the 300 watt,
Dylan (Lemon Camp) Mon 29 Apr 2019 12:32PM
@svendudink Thats a treat. Thanks for taking the time to confirm!
Poll Created Sun 5 May 2019 12:41PM
Water boilers and Coffemakers Closed Sun 12 May 2019 12:00PM
We closed the poll with 13 Yes and 6 no,
today I had a meeting with the company who provides us with the generators to get their professional opinion,
I read some of the concerns about using water boilers on the event so I would like to clear some things up,
We have a very strong powergrid but ofcourse it is wise to keep our power consumption low,
We cant make sure every one will keep on the allowed times, my idea is to make a small sign that we can hang on the boiler and pass by the camps who use water boilers to give them out with the allowed times on there
If people accidently boil water out of the allowed times it will most certainly not be a problem for our power grid, but I think its good to see how much the power consumption will be in the quiet power hours ( still please only run your boilers only in allowed times )
If 10 boilers will be turned on at exactly the same time this will not be a problem for the grid
In case we go over the maximum power for a generator this will not damage the generators, they are very well protected and will shut down, to put them back on is as easy as switching on a lightswitch in your home ( but will only be done by the power team)
There might be lower power boilers but they will boil a smaller amount of water or take longer, water needs a certain amount of energy to start boiling, unfortunately the standard boiler is already the most energy efficient as a boiler
if this is something what needs further discussion we can ofcourse talk about this a bit more
Last year Water boilers and coffemakers where not alloud on site for their high power consumption, there was a very good reason for this,
We did not know yet what our power consumption over the event was, and we learned from last year that we dont use a lot of power at daytime
This year i would like them to be aloud since a lot of people are very happy with a cup of coffee or tea in the morning,
I would like to allow this from 07:00 in the morning till 20:00,
This is out of our peak hours, this will only be allowed for camps who have ordered 3KW or more and ofcourse dont use other high powered installations while running the water boilers/Coffeemakers,
One liter of water costs around 93Watt Hour since its 2800Watt only for a few minutes.
Out of the peak hours it would not even be a problem if all of kiezburn will put their water boilers/coffeemakers on at the same time ( as long as its in your ordered power budget )
|Results||Option||% of points||Voters|
||Yes||68.4%||13||RR TT F CM JT SD|
||No||31.6%||6||SL DR D D(C|
|Undecided||0%||93||DU J SE N L C T RH J CD J NP JP H DL K L P|
20 of 113 people have voted (17%)
Daniel Regev Sun 5 May 2019 6:36PM
I don't see a way to make sure people will not use it out of "allowed times". Would be nice to trust the people, but if this could potentially harm the KB finances or be a big burden for KBorg, I'm personally cool without it. What about early birds who get up at 6 AM? What about people who like their afterparty tea?
People can still boil water using gas (or solar heating)
Dylan (Lemon Camp) Mon 6 May 2019 8:27AM
This might give the wrong impression for many campers/camps. Who will 'control' water boilers at the camps where this is allowed? Will the boilers need to be locked away during evening hours to prevent uninformed/lazy/drunk campers from abusing the water boilers? In addition, other camps might get the wrong idea and hook up their own that they randomly brought, or will bring for next year.
Better a total ban if there is a problem with peak watts, in my opinion
Bobschi Mon 6 May 2019 11:42AM
The potential problems way outweigh the benefits. Get a gas cooker, lazy hippies. Especially if you are part of a camp, that shouldn't be a problem, and is more efficient than using a kettle. This is a bad idea in my opinion.
Steffen Lepa Mon 6 May 2019 1:05PM
What I don't get: there are low-energy consuming water boilers (300W instead of 3000W) and they are not expensive (less than 50 EUR). Why not simply buy them as we did at Welfare?
Melina Moeller Wed 15 May 2019 4:33PM
@svendudink how can i contact you privately? maybe we wanna raise our watt for basic witches?
Melina Moeller Mon 27 May 2019 12:10PM
i didnt get anything try my fb: melina Moeller or email: email@example.com
Benjamin Uphues Wed 15 May 2019 10:18PM
Just wanted to post in here that the teledisko will be at kiezburn again this year. About the same location on top of the plateau. All I need is one 230V Socket. It draws 500W at max. Anything else I need to do? If not I will be there in the afternoon on Wednesday to setup. Love. Der Disko König
Sven Dudink Wed 22 May 2019 6:50PM
Noted 500W for the teledisko, you are in the map located next to the generator so easy power, Thank you for bringing your awesome invention, i love these things :D
James Fish Sat 18 May 2019 11:04AM
@svendudink - i was told to re-contact you about our camp’s power needs just to give updates. Is that necessary? Or can we just edit our form responses on the Kiez registration (the part about power?)
We are camp Schlampagne (center east of map, blue zone, funny shape.) Looks like there is a power cable running under the road to our camp area. Of course we are happy to help with laying/setting that cable during build. I updated our power needs in the Kiez registration form - pretty minimal/average for kitchen and lights, no big sound system.
Sven Dudink Wed 22 May 2019 6:51PM
All help will be welcome for digging trenches do you know what will be your updated power needs? if you need help deciding your power needs just contact me
ponk Mon 20 May 2019 4:32PM
Hi there, this is Ponk. Please see our powerrequirements for waylighting and intstallations in the google docs-spreadsheet under infratructure: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1orbZ8w0-9Cb62yvR7jbGEG5Dcykk8cS18LIn1fkYvEY/edit#gid=1535354298
Sven Dudink Wed 22 May 2019 6:53PM
thanks ponk for doing the waylighting, i have put it in the calculation
Brendan Tue 21 May 2019 2:52PM
@svendudink For the power, will there be cabling supplied to camps or do we need to run cables. If so, is there a distance we can estimate? Second, The connection to the main 'power hub' will be with what type of connectors? Will it be European Standard Plugs or Camping-Caravan Style or some other style? Thanks so much :) Also please let me know if I can support, on paper Im technically a power engineer :D
Sven Dudink Wed 22 May 2019 6:57PM
Hi brendan, you will have a power connection at max 15 meters from your camp, from this point on you will need to arrange cables yourself, it will be standard European plug (schuko) or if you have higher power demands we can also give you camping caravan style (3-Phase plug)
Carlos Vieira Thu 30 May 2019 2:49PM
I also would like to know final costs for Mellow Yellow. Where can we get that info?
Sven Dudink Fri 31 May 2019 6:50AM
@berlinette @carlosvieira there will be a letter posted to the kiezes in the next few days, for now you can also take a look in the power spreadsheet or multiple your power needs in KW by 50euro
Annette Mon 3 Jun 2019 9:23AM
last year we also had 12kw and paid 240 EUR (as far as i remember) - how come its now 600 EUR for the same amount going with the same company?
walto Sun 9 Jun 2019 4:26PM
@berlinette power has always been very expensive. Camps do no tpay hte fully price, not even with 50€ per Kw. The vision is that the price would increase even more going forward in the years and that slowly a camp might standup and say "we will organize it" or so, and then the power&prices can be self-organized, potentially greener with windmill/solar/... and KBORG is no longer involved either... Let's see where that goes.
Annette Wed 12 Jun 2019 8:07AM
thank you for the explanation - which is totally comprehensibly and a great approach for more decentralization! Is it possible to pay via bank account?
Sven Dudink Sat 8 Jun 2019 5:08PM
Last year a bigger amount was payed by KBorg, the power cost was indeed 20 euro per KW, this year that is less, the amount Kborg pays per KW is around 80 euro
Sven Dudink Wed 12 Jun 2019 8:28AM
@berlinette Yes sure, this year we only do Bank account for power, which greatly contributes to having a cash free kiezburn on site :) i send you a message with the bank details
CJ Yetman · Wed 20 Feb 2019 2:56PM
I'd potentially be willing to do this... at least replicate what was done last year. I'm not willing to run a social media campaign to get support for it though.