[Closed] New Location Proposal & Consultation
Where will Kiez Burn happen in 2020?
Due to noise complaints at Freiland in 2019 our options for running Kiez Burn in 2020 are:
Return to Freiland, but with a “quiet” burn i.e. no large soundcamps like Underworld or Zerzura - This is the only possible option for this year, at our established date in late June. In future years we should be able to return to being more loud.
Move to a new location in Muckwar, located close to our 2017 site and also managed by the Wilde Möhre guys. Muckwar should allow being loud, but also requires additional efforts to figure out everything in a new location.
This proposal’s purpose is to gather input and feedback from the community, and prepare for a community vote on our preferred location.
Proposers:
@Saskia (The Fuzzy Facilitator)
@Erin Jeavons-Fellows
@Andrea Paracucchi
@Amihay Gonen
@Purzel
@Bee
@Jan Thomas
@Ancka
The proposal is brought forward by the group of people above. The people include location scouts of both options, guiding positions and people invested in the process of finding a location for Kiez Burn 2020 in any way (attending meetings, co-working on this proposal).
This group are also the people with the most knowledge regarding the proposal and will try to answer and clarify any questions or concerns raised by the community.
The proposal
Background
We will not be able to burn at our previous location like we did in 2019. Full details can be found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DeFdf5-_9cjAp849_k-AY48JfGoAoCSsYPaxWWcrPN0/edit#heading=h.56kfpodyq5td
The proposal
Move Kiez Burn to a new location in Muckwar, which promises to run a burn without limitations and support our future development and potential growth over the next years:
Location is here: https://goo.gl/maps/sLb1gXGBiwijLgpW8
Muckwar overview as presented by scouting team: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1dOH1sHsqnmYzk-cdpkbUfOxQDZgxA2wO1wtKG8okgVM (only option 1)
More Muckwar photos: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/1/folders/1iIX72XdIyvpCGJaML0zi2tcfzM9K4m0g?fbclid=IwAR0XZwIvxCa2UNKimJcvfDd0RdrpTXMkSa0vmwA6LYrD16jpT-XnTEERsRI
How would the proposal be implemented
Refer to last paragraph about proposal timeline and decision approach.
We hope to gather enough voices and input to make a decision in line with the consensual do-ocracy process.
As other realizers and positions depend on the decision, we wish to present a decision before the end of February.
We take into consideration that this topic is huge and complex and that there might be new information from the side of finance or our contacts at either location OR questions by the community which may result in a delay of said decision. But we hope we have done a throughout job and can stick with this timeline.
What are the advantages & disadvantages of this proposal
With Muckwar we would get the following key advantages:
A new exciting location for a NON-quiet burn
Big open fields as well as forests and 2 swimmable lakes
Possibility to grow and establish there long-term
But there are also disadvantages:
No events have been held in this location yet, so there is also risk around how neighbors will react to it
A new location means moving stuff, and figuring out from scratch how to run & organize everything
If we were to stay at Freiland it we could build upon our existing good relationships with the owners, and benefit from a lot of existing knowledge which makes running the event significantly easier
Also refer to more details regarding both options under https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DeFdf5-_9cjAp849_k-AY48JfGoAoCSsYPaxWWcrPN0/edit#heading=h.5dtq5zepgyi7
The advice process
Information gathered before posting
All gathered information is summarized in this Overview document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DeFdf5-_9cjAp849_k-AY48JfGoAoCSsYPaxWWcrPN0
There you will find information about the meetings that have taken place, the steps that have been taken and all the details.
For convenience, the most important facts in regards to both options are gathered below in a short summary and a table to compare side to side. Again: For details refer to the document linked above.
Topic |
Freiland |
Mukwar |
Tax |
7% If we have a quieter burn we can pass the event for 'camping' and not a 'festival', therefore we can pay less tax |
19% |
Owner |
3 Owners but we rent from Freiland e.V. which takes over negotiations for us |
Several Owners: Forest, Storage & Lake is owned by Wilde Möhre / Alex D. The flat fields which are most crucial are owned by different other people (2 owners for main parts, 5 owners across everything) |
Water |
Water from fire hydrant |
Water from fire hydrant or from (by then) installed grid connection. |
Lake |
Yes, swimmable |
Yes, swimmable |
Ground size |
7 hectares of usable space |
7+ hectares (field alone is 7) |
Money cost (all estimates, no final numbers available for either location) |
Not disclosed publicly. BUT the cost would be similar to the cost for Muckwar INCL. the transport of everything in storage. |
The plain field is owned by 3-4 neighbours, Alex said that they would ask a couple of thousand each but we don't yet have final numbers. |
Conditions |
Serious restrictions in terms of sound levels. |
Won't cost so much money but Mukwar are eager for us to put in work to make the site usable - for example improving storage facility, making the lake or the forest usable. - for sound levels see column ‘sound levels’ |
Neighbours |
Watching us closely, i.e. we need to be super careful to stay within agreed boundaries to keep this location an ongoing option. Closest villages are 0.5km in 2 directions. |
Yet to learn what neighbours are like but closest ones are 0.7km away, but in NW direction there is 5km of forest between us |
Sound levels |
The permit would say: 55 decibel from 07:00-23:00 45 decibel from 23:00-07:00 BUT ultimately these values don't really matter, the key requirement from Freiland and Amt is that we are quiet especially at night times - i.e. that you can't hear music in the neighbouring villages - regardless of decibel levels. |
Sound restrictions need to be defined with the Amt in the process of getting a permit. Most likely along these lines: 55 decibel from 23:00-07:00 Independent of decibel levels we need to be conscious of the neighbours and prevent pissing them off, as we want to build something long term if we move there. |
Population size |
Approx. 1000 max (unless expanding into the fields where gate & campervan parking was) |
1000+ space to grow |
Ongoing relationship |
Existing relationship |
New relationship |
Storage |
We have our things in storage 4km from site |
We need to move our things to a to be figured out new storage on or close to new site (probably to be facilitated by Kiez Burn via a big truck) |
Risk at storage |
Storage is on private property, protected by a family |
Storage will be unmanned and we could be at risk of vandalism. There have been regular break-ins on that site. Would have to build to secure a storage spot at the Muckwar site. Option of storing at guarded Wilde Möhre facilities as well |
Distance from Berlin (km / hrs by car) |
210 kms / 2 hrs |
115 kms / 1hr 20mins |
Public Transport |
Closest station 9 kms (Sternfeld) |
Closest station 3.5 kms (Luckaitztal) |
Terrain |
Hilly + lakes |
Flat field, forest, and 2 lakes |
Safety roads + power |
Existing roads make access easy |
Not sure if sufficiently there. It might be that we need to build them on the field so to be able to use it. Unsure if this be allowed on those fields. The big generators might have issues coming onto the field if wet. |
Burn |
Possible (depends on fire danger level at the time) |
Less likely, since forest space i.e. the fire danger level is assessed more critically |
Growth (see thread) |
probably about +20% max |
decrease or stay at current #attendees |
Miscellaneous POSITIVE / PROs |
We know what we’re getting into. |
Exciting new location with a lot of potential for a less dispersed burn (big open fields as opposed to long roads leading to various fields @ Freiland) |
Miscellaneous NEGATIVE / CONs |
The site is at nearing capacity in terms of population (at least when not considering the field next to it) |
First time in a new location always brings uncertainties + more work for site planning, power & water |
People/roles most affected by this proposal
The complete community is affected by the proposal, which is why it was decided to try gathering input and feedback from everyone. We think it is particularly important to receive feedback from camps and leads affected by the decision - e.g. large sound camps which could not run this year at Freiland, or roles which would have more work to facilitate moving location.
Decision approach & timeline
We suggest engaging the full community in a vote on our preferred location. The idea is to publish a survey to gather input from the community, following this approach:
17th Feb - Send out location survey to the community, targeting camp leads and other people who may be strongly affected by this decision. This survey will be published via Facebook & Talk to reach the wider community. Anyone can participate, but the results will not be public while the survey is running i.e. only get shared with the final location decision
20 Feb - Survey closes, and results are getting reviewed
24 Feb - Final location meeting to review results and reach a location decision. Present & taking part in the final decision:
Update 17th Feb
Following the Leadership Weekend we have taken away some further clarity in running the advice process. We understand that once we have heard any final input from the community that may influence our final decision, we will be undertaking it with the accountability for our decision. The team taking the final decision are 7 people who have been involved in the ongoing process of the proposal, with 3 people having been involved in research for each location.
The following location team members will make a final decision by majority vote after publishing a poll for any last input. We will consider this and any advice or relevant issues raised during the advice gathering process in our decision.
@Erin Jeavons-Fellows, @Bee, @Amihay Gonen, @Andrea Paracucchi, @Jan Thomas, @Ancka, @Purzel
We will announce the decision of the new location shortly after this meeting on 24 Feb. Protokol from the meeting will be made publically available here also.
25.02.2020:
Final decision made to stay at Freiland for this year.
See meeting notes here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OkboN0A8y-1bIQU6ZB36gsZSHSMTL2QXExfZdhZxxO4/edit?usp=sharing
Location Announcement Thread here: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/rBlYuKjS/2020-location-decision-
Advice Process Completed 24.02.2020.
Rainer Thu 13 Feb 2020 10:54PM
Alina, very wise..yes..I sign your words ..👍🙂
Andrea Paracucchi Thu 13 Feb 2020 11:27PM
@Alina, also known as Milda! Dear Alina, even though I completely understand your Dream, I would love to see more of these discussion done in person as I value a lot Participation. I understand you want to stay in Freiland, as you made it clear more than once. Survey will be done for various different reasons that I will not explain here, and vote will be casted by the board and the location team. You have a vision for a "silent burn" and believe me that the sound level imposed by Freiland are not promising anything louder than some ukuleles playing. A Burn is for many (myself in primis) as well a place to not worry about anything, let alone sound, or having the police at the door as in 2019. The vote will cast a location, and ultimately, the Kiezburners will find out if Freiland will see us again or not.
Andrea Paracucchi Thu 13 Feb 2020 11:31PM
@Alina, also known as Milda! regarding continuity, what about my previous response is not clear enough?
1 - CONTINUITY - Muckwar would agree long term
2 - CONTINUITY - consensus from Landowners is there already
4 - FUNDS - Muckwar might will most probably be cheaper (or as expensive) than Freiland, with transport of storage included
Saskia Fri 14 Feb 2020 9:55AM
Hei , @Smallmovez
we are not able to disclose the numbers. To not disclose it in a public forum was a request by Freiland itself. The specific prices are subject to negotiations.
@Jan Thomas - please correct or clarify me if I misrepresent here.
(On a further note: Wohooo buddy. Lots of capslock here. IDK about you, but I feel LIKE I AM BEING YELLED AT!!!!)
Alina, also known as Universe Fri 14 Feb 2020 7:44AM
@Andrea Paracucchi I see you and I hear you (I am very aware we keep talking about the same thing on different threads). I would like to correct you by saying that my vision is for much more than a silent burn - it is, in its essence, a strategic+tactical proposal for future KB development and stabilisation as a community - and I hope I could explain it well enough above. If not, I am available for in-person conversation.
On voting: I do not consider myself well equipped for a vote either - thus, I am proposing that the vote is done by people closest to the "orga action" as they are the ones, in the end, despite do-ocracy, have done and are doing the heavy lifting and directing KB into the future.
And I am sorry, I am going to go ahead and disagree (we can agree to disagree, it's ok) - KB the event is much more for everyone involved in organising than "not worrying about anything" - I have seen enough orga people worried before/on/after the event to make such a statement - and prematurely putting ourselves in a new location is very much worrying about everything.
Andrea Paracucchi Fri 14 Feb 2020 8:15AM
I understand what your vision is, but it will need to be a silent burn at Freiland. And sorry, but I am not going forward in this discussion as I feel I have to repeat myself every time. Decision will be taken by the board and the location team.
CJ Yetman Fri 14 Feb 2020 9:36AM
@Andrea Paracucchi based on what I’ve read/heard about the discussions with the amt and Freiland, I don’t think it’s truly correct or fair to say it requires a “silent” burn. Yes, strong restrictions, but not silent. Personally I favor the new location because the sound restrictions, both legal and don’t-piss-off-the-neighbors, forces us to internally restrict the sound down to almost nothing, which I don’t like and I think will be difficult to do, but I still think it gives the wrong impression to say it needs to be a silent burn.
Jan Thomas Fri 14 Feb 2020 10:20AM
@Smallmovez numbers for neither Freiland nor Muckwar are final, so you will simply have to trust us when saying that the cost for either option would be similar and is NOT a relevant decision criterion.
I have updated the proposal to state this more clearly.
Saskia Mon 10 Feb 2020 10:25PM
Rainer!! So great to have you in the discussion! I am glad you're making your voice heard here. <3
Purzel · Tue 11 Feb 2020 10:59AM
Sadly, I've never seen the storage at freiland, so I can't estimate whether one truck load would be enough, considering the distances that we need to travel, I would say that we would be able to manage on truck load per day. (Depends on how organized is the storage and how many people volunteer for loading and unloading(preferably people with knowledge about the items stored))
As far as I know you usually have to drop the truck where you rented it, so to rent it in berlin, makes sense in my opinion.
If we go for big renting company we might be able to have different pick up and drop off places in bigger city's but that will usually come with additional charges.
I didn't imagine truck renting would be that expensive, thank you for your research, those numbers should definitely go into the consideration process.