[Closed] New Location Proposal & Consultation
Where will Kiez Burn happen in 2020?
Due to noise complaints at Freiland in 2019 our options for running Kiez Burn in 2020 are:
Return to Freiland, but with a “quiet” burn i.e. no large soundcamps like Underworld or Zerzura - This is the only possible option for this year, at our established date in late June. In future years we should be able to return to being more loud.
Move to a new location in Muckwar, located close to our 2017 site and also managed by the Wilde Möhre guys. Muckwar should allow being loud, but also requires additional efforts to figure out everything in a new location.
This proposal’s purpose is to gather input and feedback from the community, and prepare for a community vote on our preferred location.
Proposers:
@Saskia (The Fuzzy Facilitator)
@Erin Jeavons-Fellows
@Andrea Paracucchi
@Amihay Gonen
@Purzel
@Bee
@Jan Thomas
@Ancka
The proposal is brought forward by the group of people above. The people include location scouts of both options, guiding positions and people invested in the process of finding a location for Kiez Burn 2020 in any way (attending meetings, co-working on this proposal).
This group are also the people with the most knowledge regarding the proposal and will try to answer and clarify any questions or concerns raised by the community.
The proposal
Background
We will not be able to burn at our previous location like we did in 2019. Full details can be found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DeFdf5-_9cjAp849_k-AY48JfGoAoCSsYPaxWWcrPN0/edit#heading=h.56kfpodyq5td
The proposal
Move Kiez Burn to a new location in Muckwar, which promises to run a burn without limitations and support our future development and potential growth over the next years:
Location is here: https://goo.gl/maps/sLb1gXGBiwijLgpW8
Muckwar overview as presented by scouting team: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1dOH1sHsqnmYzk-cdpkbUfOxQDZgxA2wO1wtKG8okgVM (only option 1)
More Muckwar photos: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/1/folders/1iIX72XdIyvpCGJaML0zi2tcfzM9K4m0g?fbclid=IwAR0XZwIvxCa2UNKimJcvfDd0RdrpTXMkSa0vmwA6LYrD16jpT-XnTEERsRI
How would the proposal be implemented
Refer to last paragraph about proposal timeline and decision approach.
We hope to gather enough voices and input to make a decision in line with the consensual do-ocracy process.
As other realizers and positions depend on the decision, we wish to present a decision before the end of February.
We take into consideration that this topic is huge and complex and that there might be new information from the side of finance or our contacts at either location OR questions by the community which may result in a delay of said decision. But we hope we have done a throughout job and can stick with this timeline.
What are the advantages & disadvantages of this proposal
With Muckwar we would get the following key advantages:
A new exciting location for a NON-quiet burn
Big open fields as well as forests and 2 swimmable lakes
Possibility to grow and establish there long-term
But there are also disadvantages:
No events have been held in this location yet, so there is also risk around how neighbors will react to it
A new location means moving stuff, and figuring out from scratch how to run & organize everything
If we were to stay at Freiland it we could build upon our existing good relationships with the owners, and benefit from a lot of existing knowledge which makes running the event significantly easier
Also refer to more details regarding both options under https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DeFdf5-_9cjAp849_k-AY48JfGoAoCSsYPaxWWcrPN0/edit#heading=h.5dtq5zepgyi7
The advice process
Information gathered before posting
All gathered information is summarized in this Overview document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DeFdf5-_9cjAp849_k-AY48JfGoAoCSsYPaxWWcrPN0
There you will find information about the meetings that have taken place, the steps that have been taken and all the details.
For convenience, the most important facts in regards to both options are gathered below in a short summary and a table to compare side to side. Again: For details refer to the document linked above.
Topic |
Freiland |
Mukwar |
Tax |
7% If we have a quieter burn we can pass the event for 'camping' and not a 'festival', therefore we can pay less tax |
19% |
Owner |
3 Owners but we rent from Freiland e.V. which takes over negotiations for us |
Several Owners: Forest, Storage & Lake is owned by Wilde Möhre / Alex D. The flat fields which are most crucial are owned by different other people (2 owners for main parts, 5 owners across everything) |
Water |
Water from fire hydrant |
Water from fire hydrant or from (by then) installed grid connection. |
Lake |
Yes, swimmable |
Yes, swimmable |
Ground size |
7 hectares of usable space |
7+ hectares (field alone is 7) |
Money cost (all estimates, no final numbers available for either location) |
Not disclosed publicly. BUT the cost would be similar to the cost for Muckwar INCL. the transport of everything in storage. |
The plain field is owned by 3-4 neighbours, Alex said that they would ask a couple of thousand each but we don't yet have final numbers. |
Conditions |
Serious restrictions in terms of sound levels. |
Won't cost so much money but Mukwar are eager for us to put in work to make the site usable - for example improving storage facility, making the lake or the forest usable. - for sound levels see column ‘sound levels’ |
Neighbours |
Watching us closely, i.e. we need to be super careful to stay within agreed boundaries to keep this location an ongoing option. Closest villages are 0.5km in 2 directions. |
Yet to learn what neighbours are like but closest ones are 0.7km away, but in NW direction there is 5km of forest between us |
Sound levels |
The permit would say: 55 decibel from 07:00-23:00 45 decibel from 23:00-07:00 BUT ultimately these values don't really matter, the key requirement from Freiland and Amt is that we are quiet especially at night times - i.e. that you can't hear music in the neighbouring villages - regardless of decibel levels. |
Sound restrictions need to be defined with the Amt in the process of getting a permit. Most likely along these lines: 55 decibel from 23:00-07:00 Independent of decibel levels we need to be conscious of the neighbours and prevent pissing them off, as we want to build something long term if we move there. |
Population size |
Approx. 1000 max (unless expanding into the fields where gate & campervan parking was) |
1000+ space to grow |
Ongoing relationship |
Existing relationship |
New relationship |
Storage |
We have our things in storage 4km from site |
We need to move our things to a to be figured out new storage on or close to new site (probably to be facilitated by Kiez Burn via a big truck) |
Risk at storage |
Storage is on private property, protected by a family |
Storage will be unmanned and we could be at risk of vandalism. There have been regular break-ins on that site. Would have to build to secure a storage spot at the Muckwar site. Option of storing at guarded Wilde Möhre facilities as well |
Distance from Berlin (km / hrs by car) |
210 kms / 2 hrs |
115 kms / 1hr 20mins |
Public Transport |
Closest station 9 kms (Sternfeld) |
Closest station 3.5 kms (Luckaitztal) |
Terrain |
Hilly + lakes |
Flat field, forest, and 2 lakes |
Safety roads + power |
Existing roads make access easy |
Not sure if sufficiently there. It might be that we need to build them on the field so to be able to use it. Unsure if this be allowed on those fields. The big generators might have issues coming onto the field if wet. |
Burn |
Possible (depends on fire danger level at the time) |
Less likely, since forest space i.e. the fire danger level is assessed more critically |
Growth (see thread) |
probably about +20% max |
decrease or stay at current #attendees |
Miscellaneous POSITIVE / PROs |
We know what we’re getting into. |
Exciting new location with a lot of potential for a less dispersed burn (big open fields as opposed to long roads leading to various fields @ Freiland) |
Miscellaneous NEGATIVE / CONs |
The site is at nearing capacity in terms of population (at least when not considering the field next to it) |
First time in a new location always brings uncertainties + more work for site planning, power & water |
People/roles most affected by this proposal
The complete community is affected by the proposal, which is why it was decided to try gathering input and feedback from everyone. We think it is particularly important to receive feedback from camps and leads affected by the decision - e.g. large sound camps which could not run this year at Freiland, or roles which would have more work to facilitate moving location.
Decision approach & timeline
We suggest engaging the full community in a vote on our preferred location. The idea is to publish a survey to gather input from the community, following this approach:
17th Feb - Send out location survey to the community, targeting camp leads and other people who may be strongly affected by this decision. This survey will be published via Facebook & Talk to reach the wider community. Anyone can participate, but the results will not be public while the survey is running i.e. only get shared with the final location decision
20 Feb - Survey closes, and results are getting reviewed
24 Feb - Final location meeting to review results and reach a location decision. Present & taking part in the final decision:
Update 17th Feb
Following the Leadership Weekend we have taken away some further clarity in running the advice process. We understand that once we have heard any final input from the community that may influence our final decision, we will be undertaking it with the accountability for our decision. The team taking the final decision are 7 people who have been involved in the ongoing process of the proposal, with 3 people having been involved in research for each location.
The following location team members will make a final decision by majority vote after publishing a poll for any last input. We will consider this and any advice or relevant issues raised during the advice gathering process in our decision.
@Erin Jeavons-Fellows, @Bee, @Amihay Gonen, @Andrea Paracucchi, @Jan Thomas, @Ancka, @Purzel
We will announce the decision of the new location shortly after this meeting on 24 Feb. Protokol from the meeting will be made publically available here also.
25.02.2020:
Final decision made to stay at Freiland for this year.
See meeting notes here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OkboN0A8y-1bIQU6ZB36gsZSHSMTL2QXExfZdhZxxO4/edit?usp=sharing
Location Announcement Thread here: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/rBlYuKjS/2020-location-decision-
Advice Process Completed 24.02.2020.
Jeff Spirlock Fri 14 Feb 2020 8:51AM
Why was the cost of Freiland not disclosed?
That is not transparent and it is very relevant.
Maybe the cost difference offsets the price of moving everything from one site to the other. Maybe Freiland is so expensive that not only will it cover moving everything from storage but free up money for other aspects of the events. I personally feel like this proposal intentionally leaves out one of the most relevant details, THE COST OF FREILAND.
I'm interested in factual numbers and less opinionated speculation.
Rainer Fri 14 Feb 2020 10:57AM
How high is the fact that the area in Muckwar is closed by the forest authorities if there is a risk of forest fires? This applies from level 4. Can it happen that you are not allowed to build up or have to clear the area? Has that been resolved?
Erin Jeavons-Fellows Mon 17 Feb 2020 6:54PM
The KB2020 location team wish to gather the broader voice of the community, reaching all the channels and put out a survey before the final decision will be made. The survey will be active until this Friday 21st February at midnight. It should take 2 mins to complete.
Click here to give your feedback now! https://www.surveymonkey.de/r/TYJ5YB6
Many thanks!
Location Team
Alina, also known as Universe Thu 13 Feb 2020 6:31PM
Thank you for the update @Jan Thomas ! And big thank you to the location team for your time and effort! It is seen and appreciated.
I would like to propose that we are missing (clarity on) two important points for the decision to take place:
LOCATION CONTINUITY: as discussed above with and clarified by @Andrea Paracucchi = can we stay at MUCKWAR in the next 3-5 years?
COST OF MOVING: estimated cost of moving (as calculated by @Franzi and mentioned above by @Saskia (The Fuzzy Facilitator) as well as the aprox. cost of
"Mukwar are eager for us to put in work to make the site usable - for example improving storage facility, making the lake or the forest usable"
...if it's labour, not money, who will be taking this labour on? Securing storage facility is also heavy work with potential costs. I would suspect that giving Muckwar a year to prepare for/invest into something new (us) could also be beneficial - at the moment the surroundings of the lake and the forest look rough AF.
Ancka Thu 13 Feb 2020 6:15AM
Thank you Jan
Saskia Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:48AM
I think so too. In the end i think it is not about DB Numbers. It is about weather or not the neighbors feel annoyed and complain about it. Irrespective of true decibel numbers. That’s how I understood it and that’s why I think the massive focus on the number is misleading a bit.
Ancka Thu 13 Feb 2020 6:08AM
Thank you Rainer for your message, hope to see you there this summer
Andrea Paracucchi Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:56PM
I don't see the point of staying another year risking to have the police coming over as last year, when we could already move this year
Owl Tue 11 Feb 2020 10:14AM
I was under the impression that the Saloon and Yalla Hambibi had pretty loud soundsystems and weren't in dips, so their sound probably traveled way better than from Zerzura/Underworld. But that might be only my impression.
But from what I remember from the discussions is that measurements didn't show that we were below the permits noise levels at the neighbors houses, and still they complained. So my question or wish for clarification is for Freiland (and maybe also for the other potential location): are these the levels from the old permit (or how high were they)? and how much would they be influenced if we just have sound zones in the dips and everything else is Kiez-quiet (with sound not leaving the Kiez)?
Alina, also known as Universe · Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:22PM
(EDITED FOR CLARITY 8:33 / 14.02)
Another post as a general comment on the proposal. I'd like to share this with the committee @Saskia (The Fuzzy Facilitator) @Erin Jeavons-Fellows @Andrea Paracucchi @Amihay Gonen @Purzel @Bee @Jan Thomas
I believe that the location decision should not be outsourced to the community this year (yes, I understand that the final decision will be taken by the committee: I believe it should just be so)
Why NO to community survey:
I see a lot of people saying YES to Muckwar just because it's exciting and bigger and we can have sound
I also see (perceive?) that the move will not be that easy (I have read all info on Muckwar carefully)
I sense that our larger community is not engaged enough at this stage to be able to cast an informed and balanced vote
I am worried that an easy YES to Muckwar will mean that a smaller number of people (event lead team and those who take on the labour connected to the move) will have to carry the repercussions, leading to burnout (correct me if I'm exaggerating)
N.B.: If we do go for the survey, how can we share enough knowledge on the topic to be able to partake in an informed way?
WHY YES TO LEAD TEAM 2019 +EVENT TEAM 2020 VOTE
for reasons mentioned above, I propose that the location vote (or a survey) is done (distributed to) a committee of people who lead KB 2019 and are about to engage in leading KB 2020
I believe that these individuals with experience - or those about to carry out the leading/guiding of main tasks are much better equipped to make the decision that is right for us in 2020.
Background thinking (TL;DR warning)
Besides the thoughts I have already shared on Talk (Sound thread, Location thread), I woke up with a dream this morning.
I dream of a KiezBurn 2020 dedicated to community strengthening and to imagining our future
(N.B. I believe this can be done in a festive way - but with an ethos placed on art & strengthening+learning as a community over pure hedonism)
Staying with the old spot and going for a different type of burn, less focused on sound, would liberate our focus and energy to shift to community-building, and ultimately to co-creating better. Imagine do-ocracy exploration meets learning meets empowerment meets burning hedonism.
We could also use a "different kind of burning" to prepare the move to Muckwar better and at less cost.
Important: I am not thinking a boring silent burn with just talks and leadership trainings and nauseam do-ocracy workshops. I am thinking celebrating, regenerating, cross-inspiration, coming-together-in-a different way... with obviously usual hedonistic activities throughout and then in a big way on Sat night.
I have heard the voices that tell me "radical party and loud sound are the way of self-expression for our Berlin (burner) community". I do not deny this statement but I firmly believe there are other reasons for us to (Kiez)Burn and this is what makes a burn a burn. That is, I believe, what makes KB a burn VS Fusion VS Garbicz VS insert other Berlin summer fun.
With love, curiousity & kindness (please don't destroy me for this post!!!)