It's very unclear for me what "quiet" means.
will for instance the sound level at the saloon be okey? or must it be even more quiet? - can we have some reference points as 45db doesn't really tell me much.

(and great work!)

@Saskia (The Fuzzy Facilitator) Some estimations on transport costs we would add to the proposal. @Franzi investigated transport costs. Per truck will be approx 2€/container/kilometer
2x2x400 = 1600 euros. Might even be more if we include the drive from berlin to freiland then from freiland to kottbuss way and then back to berlin. could be 2x2x650 = 2600 euros
Plus people to load the truck and their transport costs and food and stuff. Maybe @Purzel with your trucking experience, you have insights? not sure if this includes move drivers or not.

aloha from Broock (next village from Freiland)

for those who don't know me: my name is Rainer and I live 500 m from Freiland. Just as a quiet burn is described, I see it as exaggerated. Freiland Sommerfest is not a quiet event and is accepted by the population. If Kiez Burn is not louder, that's enough. Two floors (lake stage and hollow) like at Freiland Sommerfest and smaller, quieter camps in selected hollows should ensure an accessible burn. There is so much more than noisy! Kiez Burn 2018 was ok, 2019 was definitely too loud. 2020 -> I hope you come because you are welcome here.

and, by the way:
https://www.maz-online.de/Brandenburg/Das-bedeuten-die-Waldbrandgefahrenstufen

love burn
Rainer

I might be confused, Is it really 55/45 decibels for the old spot? The biggest part of the conversation seems to be around sound, but it's hard to believe it's really 55/45 decibels. That is quieter than a refrigerator. Does anyone know what the actual limits would be? Attached is a link from Yale saying what decibels correspond to with familiar sounds. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ehs.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/decibel-level-chart.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjbr_u9l8nnAhXIVsAKHcJCCP4QFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw3oBbSeXtLj7FiPHatP7kcx

http://www.verwaltungsvorschriften-im-internet.de/bsvwvbund_26081998IG19980826.htm

I quote from the overview document.
hat does a ‘quiet burn’ mean specifically?
we can’t have any big sound systems / floors – unless it’s a silent disco

• in terms of volume of music that would mean for example Musotopia and Camp Schlampagne sound level might be acceptable, Underworld and Zerzura sound level will not

• to put it in technical terms, that would mean in the neighboring villages the decibels levels cannot go over 55 decibel from 07:00-23:00 and 45 decibel from 23:00-07:00

• drumming, live music with small guitar amps or similar, and small personal systems in camps should all be fine

• we would need to do some tests about what exactly can work well before the event, e.g. during the prep+planning camp-out in spring
  

That is as concrete as we can be at this point.

Added a growth section based on the input collected in the population growth assessment thread.

Hello!

The new location sounds like fun, but I would support staying with Freiland for now. My why's:

• TRANSFORM, NOT DESTROY Let's try to work with the existing community/rebuild the relationship - it's good for us. Let's try something different sound-wise - it's good for us

• LOCATION CONTINUITY This will make our lives so much easier. Would Muckwar agree to a relationship of 3-5 years from the get-go? Danger: the fact that the land that we need belongs to 3-4 neighbours. Consensus will be very difficult?

• SAVE ENERGY AND MONEY Let's avoid spending the extra funds for a move now, and plan this in a bit better for 2021, if needed? Let's concentrate on Dreaming and fostering and activating our community instead? Maybe 2020 could be the year of BIG ART as initiated by @Benjamin Langholz instead of BIG SOUND?

• TIME It's mid February and the time will run out fast from now on. Let's do with what we have, and give ourselves time and energy to prep. for the move in 2021, if decided?

• GROWTH Do we need to grow now? And if yes, parking was a great place for camping in 2019 - empty, too :)

• SOUND QUESTION I personally am convinced we can still have a blast at Freiland. Can we all agree as a community that 2020 was too much and practically speaking the big dancefloors were NEVER to capacity, and sometimes empty? Can we be sober on this one?

• SOUND ADDENDUM Wouldn't we benefit from the convos about sound to stay in the sound thread? I know that it's important, but we keep saying the same things? One thing to note here are @Rainer 's words = a clear and practical direction on how to manage sound, to be double-checked on location visit  

  Two floors (lake stage and hollow) like at Freiland Sommerfest and smaller, quieter camps in selected hollows should ensure an accessible burn

Regarding the noise level questions for Freiland, and what "a quiet burn" would mean: We were within legal limits (i.e. decibel levels) last year, but still very audible and that pissed off many neighbours. As the locals need to give their approval for us to receive a permit, the negotiations with Freiland and Ordnungsamt (who issues the permit) have resulted in our only option being to return with a quiet burn. Regardless of the legal decibel limits this means that we have to be quiet, especially at night times - i.e. it's critical that you can't hear music in the neighbouring villages. It is up to us to figure out what we can still do within these limits, i.e. which 'quieter' sound options could be feasible - assumption is that small sound camps like Musotopia should be OK, especially when placed strategically and with technical measures (like limiters on the system) to prevent them from going too loud. But this will take effort and make it hard for "quiet" sound camps to plan. And if we don't stick to the agreement of not being audible at night from the neighbouring villages, then it's likely we won't ever be able to go back.

I have also updated the table in the thread description to make this more clear (hopefully).

Outcome from location team call tonight (with @Erin Jeavons-Fellows , @Andrea Paracucchi and @Purzel ) to decide on the approach to reach a location decision:

• 13/14 Feb - Send out location survey to the community. This survey will be published via Facebook, Newsletter & Talk to reach the wider community. Anyone can participate, but the results will not be public while the survey is running i.e. only get shared with the final location decision.

• around 21 Feb - Survey closes, and results are getting reviewed.

• around 24/25 Feb - Final location meeting to review results and reach a location decision. Present & taking part in the final decision should be all key people involved in the location process, as well as affected/interested core event leads, board members and camp leads.

(EDITED FOR CLARITY 8:33 / 14.02)

Another post as a general comment on the proposal. I'd like to share this with the committee @Saskia (The Fuzzy Facilitator) @Erin Jeavons-Fellows @Andrea Paracucchi @Amihay Gonen @Purzel @Bee @Jan Thomas

I believe that the location decision should not be outsourced to the community this year (yes, I understand that the final decision will be taken by the committee: I believe it should just be so)

Why NO to community survey:

• I see a lot of people saying YES to Muckwar just because it's exciting and bigger and we can have sound

• I also see (perceive?) that the move will not be that easy (I have read all info on Muckwar carefully)

• I sense that our larger community is not engaged enough at this stage to be able to cast an informed and balanced vote

• I am worried that an easy YES to Muckwar will mean that a smaller number of people (event lead team and those who take on the labour connected to the move) will have to carry the repercussions, leading to burnout (correct me if I'm exaggerating)

N.B.: If we do go for the survey, how can we share enough knowledge on the topic to be able to partake in an informed way?

WHY YES TO LEAD TEAM 2019 +EVENT TEAM 2020 VOTE

• for reasons mentioned above, I propose that the location vote (or a survey) is done (distributed to) a committee of people who lead KB 2019 and are about to engage in leading KB 2020

• I believe that these individuals with experience - or those about to carry out the leading/guiding of main tasks are much better equipped to make the decision that is right for us in 2020.

Background thinking (TL;DR warning)

Besides the thoughts I have already shared on Talk (Sound thread, Location thread), I woke up with a dream this morning.

I dream of a KiezBurn 2020 dedicated to community strengthening and to imagining our future

(N.B. I believe this can be done in a festive way - but with an ethos placed on art & strengthening+learning as a community over pure hedonism)

Staying with the old spot and going for a different type of burn, less focused on sound, would liberate our focus and energy to shift to community-building, and ultimately to co-creating better. Imagine do-ocracy exploration meets learning meets empowerment meets burning hedonism.

We could also use a "different kind of burning" to prepare the move to Muckwar better and at less cost.

Important: I am not thinking a boring silent burn with just talks and leadership trainings and nauseam do-ocracy workshops. I am thinking celebrating, regenerating, cross-inspiration, coming-together-in-a different way... with obviously usual hedonistic activities throughout and then in a big way on Sat night.

I have heard the voices that tell me "radical party and loud sound are the way of self-expression for our Berlin (burner) community". I do not deny this statement but I firmly believe there are other reasons for us to (Kiez)Burn and this is what makes a burn a burn. That is, I believe, what makes KB a burn VS Fusion VS Garbicz VS insert other Berlin summer fun.

With love, curiousity & kindness (please don't destroy me for this post!!!)

Why was the cost of Freiland not disclosed?

That is not transparent and it is very relevant.

Maybe the cost difference offsets the price of moving everything from one site to the other. Maybe Freiland is so expensive that not only will it cover moving everything from storage but free up money for other aspects of the events. I personally feel like this proposal intentionally leaves out one of the most relevant details, THE COST OF FREILAND.

I'm interested in factual numbers and less opinionated speculation.

How high is the fact that the area in Muckwar is closed by the forest authorities if there is a risk of forest fires? This applies from level 4. Can it happen that you are not allowed to build up or have to clear the area? Has that been resolved?

The KB2020 location team wish to gather the broader voice of the community, reaching all the channels and put out a survey before the final decision will be made. The survey will be active until this Friday 21st February at midnight. It should take 2 mins to complete.

Click here to give your feedback now! https://www.surveymonkey.de/r/TYJ5YB6

Many thanks!

Location Team

The lake at muckwar has vegetation in it, is surrounded by close trees and isn't huge. The gigantic field might enough space for a spot in the middle away from the surrounding forest, depending on a fire assessment, but I think the fact the lake is situated within the forest itself would be a high hazard.

And yes the local input by wilde Möhre nearby was that they get hot weather during those weeks (on the freiland site the locals tell of the predictable storms around the time we are there).

Is it possible to see the results of the survey now that the poll has closed and a location has been chosen?

@Smallmovez I like you are interested in this topic. We had a chat with the steuerberater and what we will need is documentation of what makes our event "artsy". I will make a post for someone to potentially do this for 2019. And then for 2020, we would need a booklet again with art projects & workshops, so we can make the case more easily.

Here is the results of the community survey for the location. The community represented an "i dont care about the location" + 6 points towards muckwar

Rainer, we know the Vorschriften and we were within legal limits and permit limits. There were still complaints. All the rules do not really matter if we do not get the permit. 🤷🏻‍♀️

So are we willing to pay this as a community? @Alexxx needs to say this. CAN we do it? Do we see the money better invested elsewhere?

Sadly, I've never seen the storage at freiland, so I can't estimate whether one truck load would be enough, considering the distances that we need to travel, I would say that we would be able to manage on truck load per day. (Depends on how organized is the storage and how many people volunteer for loading and unloading(preferably people with knowledge about the items stored))

As far as I know you usually have to drop the truck where you rented it, so to rent it in berlin, makes sense in my opinion.

If we go for big renting company we might be able to have different pick up and drop off places in bigger city's but that will usually come with additional charges.

I didn't imagine truck renting would be that expensive, thank you for your research, those numbers should definitely go into the consideration process.

Alina, very wise..yes..I sign your words ..👍🙂

@Alina, also known as Milda! Dear Alina, even though I completely understand your Dream, I would love to see more of these discussion done in person as I value a lot Participation. I understand you want to stay in Freiland, as you made it clear more than once. Survey will be done for various different reasons that I will not explain here, and vote will be casted by the board and the location team. You have a vision for a "silent burn" and believe me that the sound level imposed by Freiland are not promising anything louder than some ukuleles playing. A Burn is for many (myself in primis) as well a place to not worry about anything, let alone sound, or having the police at the door as in 2019. The vote will cast a location, and ultimately, the Kiezburners will find out if Freiland will see us again or not.

@Alina, also known as Milda! regarding continuity, what about my previous response is not clear enough?

1 - CONTINUITY - Muckwar would agree long term
2 - CONTINUITY - consensus from Landowners is there already
4 - FUNDS - Muckwar might will most probably be cheaper (or as expensive) than Freiland, with transport of storage included

Hei , @Smallmovez

we are not able to disclose the numbers. To not disclose it in a public forum was a request by Freiland itself. The specific prices are subject to negotiations.

@Jan Thomas - please correct or clarify me if I misrepresent here.

(On a further note: Wohooo buddy. Lots of capslock here. IDK about you, but I feel LIKE I AM BEING YELLED AT!!!!)

@Andrea Paracucchi I see you and I hear you (I am very aware we keep talking about the same thing on different threads). I would like to correct you by saying that my vision is for much more than a silent burn - it is, in its essence, a strategic+tactical proposal for future KB development and stabilisation as a community - and I hope I could explain it well enough above. If not, I am available for in-person conversation.

On voting: I do not consider myself well equipped for a vote either - thus, I am proposing that the vote is done by people closest to the "orga action" as they are the ones, in the end, despite do-ocracy, have done and are doing the heavy lifting and directing KB into the future.

And I am sorry, I am going to go ahead and disagree (we can agree to disagree, it's ok) - KB the event is much more for everyone involved in organising than "not worrying about anything" - I have seen enough orga people worried before/on/after the event to make such a statement - and prematurely putting ourselves in a new location is very much worrying about everything.

I understand what your vision is, but it will need to be a silent burn at Freiland. And sorry, but I am not going forward in this discussion as I feel I have to repeat myself every time. Decision will be taken by the board and the location team.

@Andrea Paracucchi based on what I’ve read/heard about the discussions with the amt and Freiland, I don’t think it’s truly correct or fair to say it requires a “silent” burn. Yes, strong restrictions, but not silent. Personally I favor the new location because the sound restrictions, both legal and don’t-piss-off-the-neighbors, forces us to internally restrict the sound down to almost nothing, which I don’t like and I think will be difficult to do, but I still think it gives the wrong impression to say it needs to be a silent burn.

@Smallmovez numbers for neither Freiland nor Muckwar are final, so you will simply have to trust us when saying that the cost for either option would be similar and is NOT a relevant decision criterion.

I have updated the proposal to state this more clearly.

Rainer!! So great to have you in the discussion! I am glad you're making your voice heard here. <3

decisiones please take a moment to read this. Pause, breathe, and think about how you word things that affect people that are simply trying their best. Thank you

I did read that before I made the original post. Nothing I'm saying is personal to any individual.

Your remark regarding the question of 'will we be able to burn' is relevant. I quote from the table: "Less likely, since forest space i.e. the fire danger level is assessed more critically". So yes, we might not be able to burn at Muckwar.

You're correct.

Is a burning structure floating in the middle of a lake considered to have the same risk as one on land?

Pyraegea in Greece makes a floating effigy in the sea and burns it.

I wonder if providing full financials as proof that the event is not designed to turn a profit and that any profit from a previous year is put back into the planning of the following year would prove the event is more cultural than about making money.

Also don't call them stages. Sound camp or musical art installation, idk

To be clear I'm not against this proposal.

I just think some of these cons aren't actual big issues.

As far as I know, forest fire restrictions are pronounced for the entire district (Oberspreewald-Lausitz), not for individual areas.

@Purzel / @Alexxx do you have any insights here? Would a burning structure on the water be less subjected by fire hazard regulations?

I don't know the specific answer to that question, but my impression is that the fire regulations are equally concerned with embers flying into an adjacent area with dry, flammable stuff... so I would imagine "yes", it would still be considered a risk, unless it was a really big lake.

It's simple: if no fire is allowed to be started, no fire can be started.

https://www.maz-online.de/Brandenburg/Das-bedeuten-die-Waldbrandgefahrenstufen

I Think if we have fire regulations in the Forest, it doesn't matter whether we burn on the lake or elsewhere, one tiny piece of blaze landing in a dry forest can quickly start a fire and lead to material, natural or even human losses.

Looking back on the summer's in the last 3 years, I consider it likely that a burn at muckwar wont be possible.

As far as I remember, we often reached the highest danger level and i see this as a big threat for us. Worst case scenario would be that we wont be allowed on the grounds at all.

Last year the first day of level 5 was April 18th. Muckwar is a risk.

Thank you all for the clarifications. Much clearer!

Great example of why online chats are inferior to in person meetings when it comes to tonality and intentions. Lack of transparency was the most common issue mentioned in the meeting I attended, it is the cause of lots of lengthy conversations that have already happened many times.

Does loud music define a festival regarding taxation?

Are there specific guidelines for events to determine what tax category the event falls into?

If there isn't you could call anything with people camping a campout. I've gone camping with a load sound system before and it was absolutely not a festival. I just enjoy loud music and had a nice sound system.

AFAIK the question of 'how big of a soundsystem is too big' is also unclear at this point. Because the saloons sound system could maybe work well in the underworld-pit, if underworld doesn't claim the space the upcoming year. Testing things like this might be possible on a pre-campout like we do it every year.

I think the general tone of voice in the meetings was: Zerzura / Underworld = too big. Musotopia = super okay. And that is as close to a description as we can get.
Everything in between is & can be influenced by a big amount of factors, such as permit requirements (maybe the city will give us an okay only if we promise to exclude systems above a cetain wattage?) or position of the speakers (see above).

An extensive discussion about sound and what influences its' traveling to the neighboring houses can be found in this thread https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/23eZPYq0/the-sound-of-music-proposals

In general one could think that 'normal home HiFi Systems' are absolutley okay. So are bluetooth speakers and everything that's tiny as that. So 'quiet' burn does not mean 'dead quiet' but more like 'a big but still normal garden party'-quiet.

I was under the impression that the Saloon and Yalla Hambibi had pretty loud soundsystems and weren't in dips, so their sound probably traveled way better than from Zerzura/Underworld. But that might be only my impression.
But from what I remember from the discussions is that measurements didn't show that we were below the permits noise levels at the neighbors houses, and still they complained. So my question or wish for clarification is for Freiland (and maybe also for the other potential location): are these the levels from the old permit (or how high were they)? and how much would they be influenced if we just have sound zones in the dips and everything else is Kiez-quiet (with sound not leaving the Kiez)?

yeah, but what I do not understand is: last year we did not go over 50db with the neighbors when we measured it. Now we would go down to 45db. That does not seem to be such a change?

I think so too. In the end i think it is not about DB Numbers. It is about weather or not the neighbors feel annoyed and complain about it. Irrespective of true decibel numbers. That’s how I understood it and that’s why I think the massive focus on the number is misleading a bit.

50db to 45db is about a 25% reduction in volume

if the measured value on a measured window is - 25%, it doesn't mean that the soundsystem has been reduced by 25%

I know you want to stay at Freiland, but you should not spread incorrect information:

1 - CONTINUITY - Muckwar would agree long term
2 - CONTINUITY - consensus from Landowners is there already
4 - FUNDS - Muckwar might will most probably be cheaper (or as expensive) than Freiland, with transport of storage included
5 - TIME - we have plenty of time to work with either location
6 - SOUND QUESTION - Just need proper sound level regulation, which was not the case for 2019

I would end with a personal opinion about sound. It is a burn and it is the burn of Berlin, the Mecca of sound. Just regulate it properly and it will be fine. Quiet times from 5am to 11am like at Afrikaburn just to give an example.

fair enough - these points (esp. continuity) were not clear for me. thanks for the clarification @Andrea Paracucchi . one important point: I believe that I am not advocating to stay with Freiland exactly, I am suggesting to stay this year and prepare the move for 2021, if we finally decide on Muckwar.

I don't see the point of staying another year risking to have the police coming over as last year, when we could already move this year

Thank you Rainer for your message, hope to see you there this summer

Thank you Jan

Thank you for the update @Jan Thomas ! And big thank you to the location team for your time and effort! It is seen and appreciated.

I would like to propose that we are missing (clarity on) two important points for the decision to take place:

LOCATION CONTINUITY: as discussed above with and clarified by @Andrea Paracucchi = can we stay at MUCKWAR in the next 3-5 years?

COST OF MOVING: estimated cost of moving (as calculated by @Franzi and mentioned above by @Saskia (The Fuzzy Facilitator) as well as the aprox. cost of

"Mukwar are eager for us to put in work to make the site usable - for example improving storage facility, making the lake or the forest usable" 

...if it's labour, not money, who will be taking this labour on? Securing storage facility is also heavy work with potential costs. I would suspect that giving Muckwar a year to prepare for/invest into something new (us) could also be beneficial - at the moment the surroundings of the lake and the forest look rough AF.

Hei .@smallmoves

Regarding taxation of the event: The question wether or not we get the 7% tax is based on the judgement of the finanzamt. They do judge on a case-to-case basis.
In general, if we have stages and play music, we're more likely to be caregorized as a festival. Festivals are taken commercial events and hence get the tax of 19%. Way to get the 7% tax are f.e. to be a cultural event. Not having huge stages helps to be categorized as culture event.

The question of 'electronic / amplified handmade music' = culture is a nongoing and currently even discussed in the german bundestag in regards to clubs and their cultural value.

There are also case-to-case exceptions made by the finanzamt.

Take my information here with a grain of salt, I am no expert. That's just what I got from my involvement with taxation questions last year and from the info I have from Club Comission & online research. I ask to be corrected from someone with more experience.

Thanks for toning down on the formatting & capslock. <3 Highly appreciated! And I agree: Real life meetings > online communication