talk.kiezburn.org
Sun 9 Feb 2020 4:12PM

[Closed] New Location Proposal & Consultation

JT Jan Thomas Public Seen by 148

Where will Kiez Burn happen in 2020? 

Due to noise complaints at Freiland in 2019 our options for running Kiez Burn in 2020 are:

  • Return to Freiland, but with a “quiet” burn i.e. no large soundcamps like Underworld or Zerzura - This is the only possible option for this year, at our established date in late June. In future years we should be able to return to being more loud.

  • Move to a new location in Muckwar, located close to our 2017 site and also managed by the Wilde Möhre guys. Muckwar should allow being loud, but also requires additional efforts to figure out everything in a new location. 

This proposal’s purpose is to gather input and feedback from the community, and prepare for a community vote on our preferred location.

Proposers:

@Saskia (The Fuzzy Facilitator)
@Erin Jeavons-Fellows
@Andrea Paracucchi
@Amihay Gonen
@Purzel
@Bee
@Jan Thomas

@Ancka

The proposal is brought forward by the group of people above. The people include location scouts of both options, guiding positions and people invested in the process of finding a location for Kiez Burn 2020 in any way (attending meetings, co-working on this proposal).

This group are also the people with the most knowledge regarding the proposal and will try to answer and clarify any questions or concerns raised by the community.

The proposal

Background

We will not be able to burn at our previous location like we did in 2019. Full details can be found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DeFdf5-_9cjAp849_k-AY48JfGoAoCSsYPaxWWcrPN0/edit#heading=h.56kfpodyq5td

The proposal

Move Kiez Burn to a new location in Muckwar, which promises to run a burn without limitations and support our future development and potential growth over the next years:

How would the proposal be implemented

Refer to last paragraph about proposal timeline and decision approach.

We hope to gather enough voices and input to make a decision in line with the consensual do-ocracy process.

As other realizers and positions depend on the decision, we wish to present a decision before the end of February.

We take into consideration that this topic is huge and complex and that there might be new information from the side of finance or our contacts at either location OR questions by the community which may result in a delay of said decision. But we hope we have done a throughout job and can stick with this timeline.

What are the advantages & disadvantages of this proposal

With Muckwar we would get the following key advantages:

  • A new exciting location for a NON-quiet burn

  • Big open fields as well as forests and 2 swimmable lakes

  • Possibility to grow and establish there long-term

But there are also disadvantages:

  • No events have been held in this location yet, so there is also risk around how neighbors will react to it

  • A new location means moving stuff, and figuring out from scratch how to run & organize everything

  • If we were to stay at Freiland it we could build upon our existing good relationships with the owners, and benefit from a lot of existing knowledge which makes running the event significantly easier

Also refer to more details regarding both options under https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DeFdf5-_9cjAp849_k-AY48JfGoAoCSsYPaxWWcrPN0/edit#heading=h.5dtq5zepgyi7


 

The advice process 

Information gathered before posting

All gathered information is summarized in this Overview document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DeFdf5-_9cjAp849_k-AY48JfGoAoCSsYPaxWWcrPN0

There you will find information about the meetings that have taken place, the steps that have been taken and all the details. 

For convenience, the most important facts in regards to both options are gathered below in a short summary and a table to compare side to side. Again: For details refer to the document linked above. 

Topic

Freiland

Mukwar

Tax

7%

If we have a quieter burn we can pass the event for 'camping' and not a 'festival', therefore we can pay less tax

19%

Owner

3 Owners but we rent from Freiland e.V. which takes over negotiations for us

Several Owners: Forest, Storage & Lake is owned by Wilde Möhre / Alex D.

The flat fields which are most crucial are owned by different other people (2 owners for main parts, 5 owners across everything) 

Water

Water from fire hydrant

Water from fire hydrant or from (by then) installed grid connection.

Lake

Yes, swimmable

Yes, swimmable 

Ground size

7 hectares of usable space

7+ hectares (field alone is 7)

Money cost (all estimates, no final numbers available for either location) 

Not disclosed publicly.

BUT the cost would be similar to the cost for Muckwar INCL. the transport of everything in storage.

The plain field is owned by 3-4 neighbours, Alex said that they would ask a couple of thousand each but we don't yet have final numbers. 

Conditions

Serious restrictions in terms of sound levels. 

Won't cost so much money but Mukwar are eager for us to put in work to make the site usable - for example improving storage facility, making the lake or the forest usable.  - for sound levels see column ‘sound levels’ 

Neighbours

Watching us closely, i.e. we need to be super careful to stay within agreed boundaries to keep this location an ongoing option. Closest villages are 0.5km in 2 directions.

Yet to learn what neighbours are like but closest ones are 0.7km away, but in NW direction there is  5km of forest between us 

Sound levels

The permit would say:

55 decibel from 07:00-23:00

45 decibel from 23:00-07:00

BUT ultimately these values don't really matter, the key requirement from Freiland and Amt is that we are quiet especially at night times - i.e. that you can't hear music in the neighbouring villages - regardless of decibel levels.

Sound restrictions need to be defined with the Amt in the process of getting a permit. Most likely along these lines:
70 decibel from 07:00-23:00

55 decibel from 23:00-07:00

Independent of decibel levels we need to be conscious of the neighbours and prevent pissing them off, as we want to build something long term if we move there.

Population size

Approx. 1000 max (unless expanding into the fields where gate & campervan parking was)

1000+ space to grow 

Ongoing relationship

Existing relationship

New relationship

Storage

We have our things in storage 4km from site

We need to move our things to a to be figured out new storage on or close to new site (probably to be facilitated by Kiez Burn via a big truck)

Risk at storage

Storage is on private property, protected by a family

Storage will be unmanned and we could be at risk of vandalism. There have been regular break-ins on that site. Would have to build to secure a storage spot at the Muckwar site. 

Option of storing at guarded Wilde Möhre facilities as well

Distance from Berlin (km / hrs by car)

210 kms / 2 hrs

115 kms / 1hr 20mins

Public Transport

Closest station 9 kms (Sternfeld)

Closest station 3.5 kms (Luckaitztal)

Terrain

Hilly +  lakes 

Flat field, forest, and 2 lakes

Safety roads + power

Existing roads make access easy

Not sure if sufficiently there. It might be that we need to build them on the field so to be able to use it. Unsure if this be allowed on those fields.


The big generators might have issues coming onto the field if wet.

Burn

Possible (depends on fire danger level at the time)

Less likely, since forest space i.e. the fire danger level is assessed more critically

Growth (see thread)

probably about +20% max

decrease or stay at current #attendees

Miscellaneous POSITIVE / PROs

We know what we’re getting into.

Exciting new location with a lot of potential for a less dispersed burn (big open fields as opposed to long roads leading to various fields @ Freiland)

Miscellaneous NEGATIVE / CONs

The site is at nearing capacity in terms of population (at least when not considering the field next to it)

First time in a new location always brings uncertainties + more work for site planning, power & water


People/roles most affected by this proposal

The complete community is affected by the proposal, which is why it was decided to try gathering input and feedback from everyone. We think it is particularly important to receive feedback from camps and leads affected by the decision - e.g. large sound camps which could not run this year at Freiland, or roles which would have more work to facilitate moving location.

Decision approach & timeline

We suggest engaging the full community in a vote on our preferred location. The idea is to publish a survey to gather input from the community, following this approach:

  • 17th Feb - Send out location survey to the community, targeting camp leads and other people who may be strongly affected by this decision. This survey will be published via Facebook & Talk to reach the wider community. Anyone can participate, but the results will not be public while the survey is running i.e. only get shared with the final location decision

  • 20 Feb - Survey closes, and results are getting reviewed

  • 24 Feb - Final location meeting to review results and reach a location decision. Present & taking part in the final decision:

Update 17th Feb

Following the Leadership Weekend we have taken away some further clarity in running the advice process. We understand that once we have heard any final input from the community that may influence our final decision, we will be undertaking it with the accountability for our decision. The team taking the final decision are 7 people who have been involved in the ongoing process of the proposal, with 3 people having been involved in research for each location.

The following location team members will make a final decision by majority vote after publishing a poll for any last input. We will consider this and any advice or relevant issues raised during the advice gathering process in our decision.

@Erin Jeavons-Fellows, @Bee, @Amihay Gonen, @Andrea Paracucchi, @Jan Thomas, @Ancka, @Purzel

We will announce the decision of the new location shortly after this meeting on 24 Feb. Protokol from the meeting will be made publically available here also.

25.02.2020:
Final decision made to stay at Freiland for this year.
See meeting notes here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OkboN0A8y-1bIQU6ZB36gsZSHSMTL2QXExfZdhZxxO4/edit?usp=sharing

Location Announcement Thread here: https://talk.kiezburn.org/d/rBlYuKjS/2020-location-decision-

Advice Process Completed 24.02.2020.

Ø

Øystein Mon 10 Feb 2020 5:14PM

It's very unclear for me what "quiet" means.
will for instance the sound level at the saloon be okey? or must it be even more quiet? - can we have some reference points as 45db doesn't really tell me much.

(and great work!)

EJ

Erin Jeavons-Fellows Mon 10 Feb 2020 8:23PM

@Saskia (The Fuzzy Facilitator) Some estimations on transport costs we would add to the proposal. @Franzi investigated transport costs. Per truck will be approx 2€/container/kilometer
2x2x400 = 1600 euros. Might even be more if we include the drive from berlin to freiland then from freiland to kottbuss way and then back to berlin. could be 2x2x650 = 2600 euros
Plus people to load the truck and their transport costs and food and stuff. Maybe @Purzel with your trucking experience, you have insights? not sure if this includes move drivers or not.

R

Rainer Mon 10 Feb 2020 8:50PM

aloha from Broock (next village from Freiland)

for those who don't know me: my name is Rainer and I live 500 m from Freiland. Just as a quiet burn is described, I see it as exaggerated. Freiland Sommerfest is not a quiet event and is accepted by the population. If Kiez Burn is not louder, that's enough. Two floors (lake stage and hollow) like at Freiland Sommerfest and smaller, quieter camps in selected hollows should ensure an accessible burn. There is so much more than noisy! Kiez Burn 2018 was ok, 2019 was definitely too loud. 2020 -> I hope you come because you are welcome here.

and, by the way:
https://www.maz-online.de/Brandenburg/Das-bedeuten-die-Waldbrandgefahrenstufen

love burn
Rainer

E

Eric Tue 11 Feb 2020 9:31AM

I might be confused, Is it really 55/45 decibels for the old spot? The biggest part of the conversation seems to be around sound, but it's hard to believe it's really 55/45 decibels. That is quieter than a refrigerator. Does anyone know what the actual limits would be? Attached is a link from Yale saying what decibels correspond to with familiar sounds. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ehs.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/decibel-level-chart.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjbr_u9l8nnAhXIVsAKHcJCCP4QFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw3oBbSeXtLj7FiPHatP7kcx

S

Saskia Tue 11 Feb 2020 10:55AM

I quote from the overview document.
hat does a ‘quiet burn’ mean specifically?
we can’t have any big sound systems / floors – unless it’s a silent disco

  • in terms of volume of music that would mean for example Musotopia and Camp Schlampagne sound level might be acceptable, Underworld and Zerzura sound level will not

  • to put it in technical terms, that would mean in the neighboring villages the decibels levels cannot go over 55 decibel from 07:00-23:00 and 45 decibel from 23:00-07:00

  • drumming, live music with small guitar amps or similar, and small personal systems in camps should all be fine

  • we would need to do some tests about what exactly can work well before the event, e.g. during the prep+planning camp-out in spring

That is as concrete as we can be at this point.

W

walto Tue 11 Feb 2020 11:03AM

Added a growth section based on the input collected in the population growth assessment thread.

DU

Alina, also known as Universe Wed 12 Feb 2020 8:56AM

Hello!

The new location sounds like fun, but I would support staying with Freiland for now. My why's:

  • TRANSFORM, NOT DESTROY Let's try to work with the existing community/rebuild the relationship - it's good for us. Let's try something different sound-wise - it's good for us

  • LOCATION CONTINUITY This will make our lives so much easier. Would Muckwar agree to a relationship of 3-5 years from the get-go? Danger: the fact that the land that we need belongs to 3-4 neighbours. Consensus will be very difficult?

  • SAVE ENERGY AND MONEY Let's avoid spending the extra funds for a move now, and plan this in a bit better for 2021, if needed? Let's concentrate on Dreaming and fostering and activating our community instead? Maybe 2020 could be the year of BIG ART as initiated by @Benjamin Langholz instead of BIG SOUND?

  • TIME It's mid February and the time will run out fast from now on. Let's do with what we have, and give ourselves time and energy to prep. for the move in 2021, if decided?

  • GROWTH Do we need to grow now? And if yes, parking was a great place for camping in 2019 - empty, too :)

  • SOUND QUESTION I personally am convinced we can still have a blast at Freiland. Can we all agree as a community that 2020 was too much and practically speaking the big dancefloors were NEVER to capacity, and sometimes empty? Can we be sober on this one?

  • SOUND ADDENDUM Wouldn't we benefit from the convos about sound to stay in the sound thread? I know that it's important, but we keep saying the same things? One thing to note here are @Rainer 's words = a clear and practical direction on how to manage sound, to be double-checked on location visit  

    Two floors (lake stage and hollow) like at Freiland Sommerfest and smaller, quieter camps in selected hollows should ensure an accessible burn

JT

Jan Thomas Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:15PM

Regarding the noise level questions for Freiland, and what "a quiet burn" would mean: We were within legal limits (i.e. decibel levels) last year, but still very audible and that pissed off many neighbours. As the locals need to give their approval for us to receive a permit, the negotiations with Freiland and Ordnungsamt (who issues the permit) have resulted in our only option being to return with a quiet burn. Regardless of the legal decibel limits this means that we have to be quiet, especially at night times - i.e. it's critical that you can't hear music in the neighbouring villages. It is up to us to figure out what we can still do within these limits, i.e. which 'quieter' sound options could be feasible - assumption is that small sound camps like Musotopia should be OK, especially when placed strategically and with technical measures (like limiters on the system) to prevent them from going too loud. But this will take effort and make it hard for "quiet" sound camps to plan. And if we don't stick to the agreement of not being audible at night from the neighbouring villages, then it's likely we won't ever be able to go back.

I have also updated the table in the thread description to make this more clear (hopefully).

JT

Jan Thomas Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:17PM

Outcome from location team call tonight (with @Erin Jeavons-Fellows , @Andrea Paracucchi and @Purzel ) to decide on the approach to reach a location decision:

  • 13/14 Feb - Send out location survey to the community. This survey will be published via Facebook, Newsletter & Talk to reach the wider community. Anyone can participate, but the results will not be public while the survey is running i.e. only get shared with the final location decision.

  • around 21 Feb - Survey closes, and results are getting reviewed.

  • around 24/25 Feb - Final location meeting to review results and reach a location decision. Present & taking part in the final decision should be all key people involved in the location process, as well as affected/interested core event leads, board members and camp leads.

Load More