Fri 6 Mar 2020 12:02AM

[Proposal] Buy Dream Tokens when buying ticket

W walto Public Seen by 22

I follow the Advice Process Proposal Template


Proposer (name, handle, etc.):

Original proposer: @waldo

Current proposer: @Alexxx

Proposer’s role:

I am involved in pushing the Dreams platform & process into action. For this proposal, I am excited about the possibility of increasing donations & more money flowing to Dreams/art.

The advice process

The first step in the advice process is to gather input and advice from experts and people affected. (see realities)

Information gathered before posting

I have informed what the current status is on ticketing. It appears that Callum withdrew his radical ticketing proposal.

I have informed with @Jan Thomas , @Otto and @Keegan regarding feasibility on the ticketing side. I have asked @Henrik 🤖 and @Flo regarding technical challenges/feasibility, and that investigation is still underway.

People/roles most affected by this proposal

The proposal


In our BurnerTickets setup, we always had the opportunity for ticket purchasers, to donate more money. This resulted in a limited amount of extra donations.

I believe we have an opportunity to incentivize people to donate more, to enable more art at Kiez Burn.

The proposal

When people buy a ticket, they have the option to "donate more, support the arts & decide yourself which art gets funded through the Dreams platform".

When people enter a € amount they wish to donate, there is an automatic calculator that shows how this translates into how many dream tokens.


  • someone purchases a ticket

  • enters "30€" to donate more

  • it is shown immediately next to it, that this will result in 10 extra dream tokens to spend on the Dreams platform

People can still only spend a maximum of 5 tokens per Dream, severely limiting the impact this proposal would have on skewing the process.

How would the proposal be implemented

  • Burner Tickets Frontend: I would suggest that the exact way it is written and shown in Burner tickets is left to the ticketing Team

  • Connect between tickets & Dreams: When someone buys a ticket on Burner Tickets, we already have the connection to the Dreams platform that we enable the ticket purchaser to activate his/her/their account on Dreams. After activation the ticket holder has 10 hearts. In this proposal, we would need to send 1 additional piece of information: the € donation made by the ticket holder (or how many extra dream hearts/tokens are bought)

  • Dream token value: this will be determined at a later date and will need to be aligned between the Dreams & the ticketing platform when tickets go on sale. (prioritized for after launch Dreams)

Github related issues:

When would this proposal be implemented

  • Check if the connect between BurnerTickets and Dreams can be done this way: @Henrik 🤖 and @Flo

  • Implement this connection succesfully

  • then we can start selling tickets

What would be the cost (time, money, effort, etc.) of this proposal

I do not know

What are the advantages of this proposal (relative to the current situation and/or counter-proposals)

  • Gifting: we enable more gifting to take place

  • Participation: people can participate in enabling more Dreams to take place

What are the disadvantages of this proposal (relative to the current situation and/or counter-proposals)

I do not see any disadvantages, besides the effort needed in setting it up.


Henrik 🤖 Tue 10 Mar 2020 6:43PM

I checked in with Matthew from and we have green light regarding the technicalities from their side 👍


Henrik 🤖 Sat 7 Mar 2020 5:56PM

No, I don't block or veto this. I see the need and value for this proposal.


walto Mon 16 Mar 2020 3:48PM

Let's see how the whole corona thing will impact us. Some thoughts:

  1. Why we implemented Dreams had several reasons. On a philosophical level, we want to connect more people, increase playadipity, increase the feeling of community. By connecting with many dreams, enabling more people to volunteer for other people's Dreams, and just generally "seeing it", you get a more connected community. For me the reasons regarding fixing a broken untransparent "art committee" or "democratizing funding" are only secondary, but probably more visible to others. I believe there could be ways to make art committees transparent with people buying into the process. I personally find the way Borderland did it last year very interesting, although probably very person-dependent. I expanded on some options in the thread from Benjamin on the art department

  2. Big art: yes, a weakness last year, which we hope/believe we addressed with this iteration of the Dreams process. But who knows? We try and learn.

  3. Buying extra dream tokens or even integration of direction donation on the Dreams platform, would be great to explore. Previous tech discussions indicated that this would be "too much work". But if someone is engaged enough to try it... In that sense, Alex' proposal could be interesting: where one could imagine partly people funding through ticket tokens, and partly funding through some sort of direct fundraising methods on the Dreams platform?

I believe the Dreams platform has potential beyond what it currently does. However, I do believe in it's philosophical core: uniting all Dreams into one platform, where people connect, high visibility on what is happening and a way to interact with Dreams before the event.


walto Fri 6 Mar 2020 10:20PM

Thanks Henrik. What about the following: We change the text to be "this corresponds to about 10 tokens. The exact amount of tokens will be shown in the Dreams platform and correspond your monetary donation"

Regarding the connect between burner tickets and the Dreams platform, I would love it if someone else could support in checking if with if they can provide data on the money that was donated per ticket purchase through their API. I am excited about this proposal, but unfortunately do not see myself capable of liaising & implementing it technically, due to my own energy/time capacity.


walto Fri 6 Mar 2020 11:19PM

Tnx for the advice. We explored this ethical side during the dream meeting as well. If you allow me, I would love to understand your thinking a bit better.

I personally feel your proposal to allow people to gift things to Kiezburn which can then be bought by others, is in fact commercializing things. People pay and get something in return. Or am I misunderstanding this?

To me, allowing people to buy more Dream tokens, is merely enabling them to gift more easily. They do not get anything in return, except for the pleasure of gifting, one of our principles. The same rules regarding "no more than 5 dream tokens per dream" is still valid for them.

We regularly have people collecting money to achieve their dreams through channels besides the Dreams Platform. Daisy last year made a fundraising campaign to collect money for the opening ceremony. If you support those kinds of actions, how is it different from enabling people to buy more Dream tokens?


Henrik 🤖 Sat 7 Mar 2020 12:11AM

The difference is that the democratic system behind dreams breaks once dream tokens can be bought. If everyone has the same number of tokes to hand out, the Art Grant distribution is a selection by the community through a democratic process. Selling tokens would skew the selection in favor of projects that are preferred by those who spend more money. The 5-token-per-dream-boundary limits that to some extend.


walto Sat 7 Mar 2020 1:48AM

Thanks for the additional explanation.

I agree that this proposal indeed might slightly mess with the min/max democratic system, despite the 5-token-per-dream-boundary limit. Some Dreams might get pieces of the pie, they might have not otherwise gotten. On the other hand: the pie might also get substantially bigger because of this proposal.

Would you say, as one of the people also realizing (parts of) the Dreams process, your above ethical objections are a blocker for you towards this proposal? I do not want to push this proposal any further if you do not consent to or strongly dislike this idea being implemented.


Alex Kaos Wed 11 Mar 2020 9:34AM

Excellent news. That means that technically we have no complications with this proposal. No we just need to see if anyone will show their lack of consent... I guess...


Keegan Sat 14 Mar 2020 4:05AM

I think an easy way to manage it is to create a unit that people can buy multiple of. eg I want to buy 15 extra dream tokens.

I am in 2 minds re the 5 limits. I see this as a vehicle for potential others that are very interested in a dream to make sure it makes it to the burn, maybe is there a way to connect these individuals to the dreamer to make it happen or does that also affect the mindset of dreams? I see us having more dream spend and more dreams at kiez burn if this is an option.
What is the key driving factor of dreams/dreams process? Is it to have more great art or is it to have a super controlled equal voting system on what comes? I like the democratic side but for me I put seeing more amazing art at the burn higher. It is a way for people who are more interested and able in a project to support them more.

Another thing I think that is worth exploring is how possible/what implications are there for people to be able to buy extra dream tokens after they have bought their ticket? Mainly because some people may not see any dreams they want to support further until after they have already got their ticket.


walto Mon 9 Mar 2020 5:06PM

@Alexxx will take over this proposal, proposal description updated.


Alex Kaos Sat 7 Mar 2020 8:55PM

I like the proposal. It should be relatively easy to implement, after reading Henrik's comments and Speaking with Flo, as well as having seen the back-end of the budget myself.

From a finance perspective it is manageable to add this in, it is just numbers in a sheet. From a budgeting perspective it shouldn't be too awful because it just adds more money to Dreams that wasn't initially budgeted.

On the other hand, I have a completely different proposal for now to handle the Dreams platform, which removes many other factors (i.e. we lose at best 7% of every 'donated €', which would be less money to give to the dreamers (maybe 19%, or 0,19c per 1€ donated). By having the participants funding the projects directly, without having Kiez Burn as a bureaucratic fund-holder, the Dreamers get more money per donated euro, are funded before the event, potentially get even more money due to a true gifting process of donation, and we all have way less work to do.
Check it out..


Henrik 🤖 Fri 6 Mar 2020 10:34PM

And here is my input to the ethical side of this:

I'm not a fan of granting more privileges to those who have more money to spend. Donations should come from generosity, i.e. radical gifting. Handing out additional "voting rights" in return for donations comes from a mindset that I wouldn't like to see supported by Kiez Burn.

To be a bit more constructive, here is a potential inspiration for an alternative way to incentivize ticket buyers to spend more money:

At the Burner Tech Wekeend Fundraiser Auction people would offer something for the auction and the money for which the thing was sold went straight to the crowdfunding campaign. This was a super fun experience! And it was a win^3 situation: The auctioneer could present something cool that they offer (shibari class, oracle reading, secret party tour, private concert etc.) and the buyers had fun spending their money – because all of it went to a good cause, the fundraiser, anyway. I saw myself in a situation where I was ready to bid higher for something than I would normally pay for it since I knew that the money went to the campaign. It also strengthens the community, since buyer and seller shared or are going to share an experience together.

So what if – instead of selling tokens – Kiez Burners could offer a product or service at a certain price, which would then be donated to Kiez Burn if bought by other burners. It's more creative, potentially gets more money in and creates more touchpoints within the community. It's also more work.


Henrik 🤖 Fri 6 Mar 2020 10:09PM

Alright, here's my input from the technical standpoint:

  • Calculating the token value from the donation at the point of sale (ticketing checkout) could be tricky, depending on the way is setup. I would advise against it, as we can't change the formula if we need to – we'd have to ask and wait for burnertickets to change it.

  • Granting more tokens depending on the money donated is easy to do (here is the relevant code). But we need to make a change in their API which shouldn't be too difficult to do. Could you check with if they can provide data on the money that was donated per ticket purchase through their API?