Kiez Placement

Hey y'all, some changes have been made as we decided to make a quiet viertel and shift some sound camps around as we lock in placement. Apologizes for the abruptness, but we hope that this will make for a better experience for everyone

Well, since Just Being is a quiet camp with chill music at "Zimmerlautstärke" we want like to stay where we originally planned to be. We made arrangements for workshops and building material that will only work there because of the platform, the fireplace (how perfect is a fireplace for a hippie camp?!) and the construction wagon. (Btw: I'm referring to the area where Süßkiez ist placed according to the update)

Thanks for the response Henrik! Site planning is very hard and sometimes trade-offs need to be made. Unfortunately the location where Just Being wanted to be did not work any longer because sound needs to travel east. Orientating on Kinderkiez, we made the whole west side relatively quiet and more loud camps more to the east.

We are aware that this implies certain changes in the way you set up your camp, which is why we wanted to take this decision as early as possible, still before Burning Pig. The new spot of Just being is absolutely wonderful: completely flat, grassy, between trees, right next to some really cool Kieze!

Happy to work with you to make it work.

I understand that Kieze are still registering and making it hard to decide about the best placement for everyone.
We have been planning for a while now and also got more concrete about the structures we are going to build. In fact Henrik spent a good amount of time looking into and getting materials to build something to cover that stage area for the workshops we want to bring & gift to the Burn. I guess you can imagine his frustration with the short term decision of re-placing us as a camp now. To be honest I have a hard time atm motivating my crew and make sure that stuff is gettting done. Decision like moving us around adds onto this so I guess you can also understand my frustration with that.
So I really want to understand the reasons behind this decision and if there is anything we could do to reverse it. Cause sound issues were there before. We are not an entirely silent camp and also thought about putting our tents somewhere where there is more space and just to have our structures in the dedicated area. So a bit of sound probably wouldn’t be too bad.
Henrik and the ones who were already informed and who have been to the site are not happy with the new location. I understand that it is quite impossible for you to make everyone happy but I also do understand that we are one of the bigger Kieze with more than 40 members and 30 more who would like the camp - so I can confidently say there is a major interest in the camp to exist and to be accessible for others wanting to join us.

Please let me know if there is any way I can support you with finding a better solution to this. Cause even though we are before Burning Pig - it is not even 2 months left and I do consider this change as a rather short term decision.

For starters, what is wrong with the new location? It is flat, and the hilliness of the previous location had been an issue in terms of finding tent space for everyone. The new location removes any possibility of a neighboring kiez interrupting a workshop with some boom boom music and does not restrict in utilizing new materials or building a stage.

It was supposed to be considered a compliment that Just Being would anchor the new quieter viertel. As a returning kiez with well produced ideas, Area 51 thought that your presence in the new location would ensure that region would remain interesting with fewer kieze placed there. While it homogenizes the region, it could be possible for JB to use the entire section below the road and move Gingeridoo across the road.

Due to the challenges of the former quarry terrain, there will probably be a number of various kiez residents not camping directly with their kiez. A kiez expanding almost 100 percent in size is great for participation and inclusion, but must be seen as almost impossible to guarantee room as other kieze might have similar growth desires, but we cannot accommodate potential growth in every placement. Simply setting up structures and everyone camping elsewhere sounds less like a burn and more like a centralized festival like Fusion.

I hope this shows some of the reasoning and inspires confidence in the new location

I totally understand you Anna. It is difficult to deal with changing requirements. However, we can commit to that location now. I also want to re-iterate what Randy just said: the new location is really really beautiful and could work perfectly for Just Being.

The main reason for the move of Just Being away from a more north-central position, has been that Kinderkiez needed to go really quiet, up in the north west corner because of sound concerns. The previous understanding was that sound needed to travel south-East, and now we know it needs to travel east. That caused Kinderkiez to no longer be able to be in the east. This in turn, caused some of the already placed Kieze in the west to no longer be a viable option there, and needed to be placed further away from Kinderkiez.

The only big, more quiet Kiez, is Just Being. We paired that up with 2 super interesting Kieze (one of them a kitchen kiez) to create an attractive chill atmosphere up in the north-west corner. We believe that will create a very interesting space during the day and early evening. It is the biggest flat space there is (the containers that were there on previous site visits will no longer be there) and would be 75% Just Being.

@bandit maybe you can add something here in terms of sound zones?

For what little it's worth, we had the most recent site visit, and everyone on the visit was in conclusion that JB's new location is one of the best spots on the Gelände (we would like to be there as well hehe, it's gorgeous).
Anyways, you can see for yourselves at burning pig ;) that's just two cents that might help calm some of the frustration (which I can relate to).

On a second point. The areas south of Flow Camp's position (south and south-West of the Eastern lake) is virtually uncampable, expect for the very top of the hill. We're already at a very tight squeeze in utilizing that space for our own camp (we have the only flat area in the entire field, and need every centimeter). That's just a heads up, don't place any kieze or freecamping there until you can personally review the location at burning pig. It could end up getting messier.

Again, it's just a heads up ;)

Hi guys, SüßKiez here, discovering our new location ;) To be honest we did not realise locations for bigger camps were still in review until now - and were already full power on structure explorations. The new site is quite different than what we expected after our last conversation with Randy. Could you please tell us, is the new placement now final, and if yes, WHO could give us more details about it so that we can start turning the structure ship around BEFORE Burning Pig already? THanks and hugZ. Alina. p.s. I must admit I am finding that camp communications flow a little less well this year - I do not feel like we are fully aware of what is happening behind the scenes. Would be nice to change that with a weekly email maybe? I know that's extra work for your mighty shoulders, but is absolutely essential to ensure all camp leads are in the loop. Hope this is OK to voice here)

@randypence let me know when you have an idea where to place the basic bitches, so I can add power to the map for them too. Tnx!

Hey you guys :) So I'd like it put it out there that we Süßkiez do not mind a remote location in the woods and would be happy to swap with Just Being to makes their lives easier! We would looooooove to have the lecker-sounding Dhaba as our neighbour too ;) The only thing is, we are going to go boum boum on two nights and have registered as a sound camp (not as loud/full on as Zerzura or Underworld, but still! And the forest location in the forest has to be a quiet one, right? What can we do?

Folks, let’s get practical and talk about real solutions rather than debate the justification for things. These are solvable issues. Site Planning is doing a difficult job, managing not just your preferences, but many different, potentially competing, preferences and needs. Compromises need to be made. And keep in mind, the volunteers doing this for kborg are also fellow Kiez Burners, and possibly even your own Kiez-mates… they’re doing their best to make the best situation for everyone, and they deserve a bit of praise and thanks.

Just Being - I do not think you would fit in the platform-valley with 40+ people, it’s just not big enough. What do you really want from that location that you can’t have at the other location? Maybe we can do something about it. You really want a platform? Maybe we can build one at your site. You want a fireplace? That can probably be arranged. Maybe we can even drag that old wagon up to your site if you really want it. Let’s talk about what we can do to make your site work for you.

Süßkiez - It’s unclear to me what your preference for another location, or strong dislike of your location is. What do you need? What did you think you had in the preliminary location that you can’t get in your current location? What problems or obstacles does your current location present? Let’s figure it out. (I am a member of Süßkiez, and after visiting the site, our current location is what my personal preference was, though it was admittedly a bit arbitrary.)

Hey CJ, SuessKiez was just trying to help and ease Just Being's pain. But looking at Randy's comment above, a swap is not an option, as we are a soundcamp. As per Henrik's comment, we too appreciate your work and know well it's a hard task! But, that said, we too were under the impression the last discussion we had with AREA 51 was final and had no idea changes were in sight. As per Henrik's comment, a heads up would have been more than nice to ease the transitional pains. Also would have been nice to talk to someone prior to understand the new location, so that we can accommodate our planning. As it went, you guys just dropped it on us and there was no discussion between then and now. We will work with the location assigned to us, of course, but this could have been managed a little more constructively/communicatively. My main problem is that the new location is COMPLETELY BARE - we were counting on having trees around our camp. We would prefer to keep the Wagon - would be good for us to have at least some structure in that case. Without any trees our hammock oasis of chill is not possible. But, we are looking forward to Burning Pig to find out more about the spot. If KiezBurn build is open to help us erect some structure as you just offered to Just Being, we would be thankful for that. Let's talk at Burning Pig. Thanks and love from Suesskiez.

FYI, particulary @randypence and @waldo, we've had 4 new Kieze register in the past week.

@randypence @waldo if there are any small quiet family friendly camps that want trees, we'll have more than enough space up by kinder, and we don't mind neighbours :-)

So... some person thought the Kieze registration form was the ticket application form... WTH... Camp Yaeli is not a real Kiez. So I will be deleting them from the map and power etc. @randypence @joicebiazoto and @cjyetman

@waldo @joicebiazoto @randypence We got another Kiez registration today... should we be closing down the registration form?

Hey @randypence Can you put me in contact with the Lemon Kiez guys please? We have a possible situation brewing with the whole of Kinderkiez's area being 100% underwater, and we will likely have to shift one site up. Currently this place is tentatively being used by the Lemons, but we'd like to discuss them moving their 12 people up the road so our 40 will have space?

@randypence It´s Madda here from Lemon Camp: we talked about everything with Suska. yesterday on site. Our camp is going to be next to Monkey Camp, down the hill. Here

Suska was ok with the placement choice!!
it´s the "black" area next to the road below Monkey Camp not far from Süßkiez @bandit Amber is it clear?

It would be too small for Kids Kiez anyway. For Lemon camp is the perfect size

@waldo @bandit @randypence Madda will be able to help best as she was at the Pig. I hope it works out. Thanks everyone!

So maybe like this is clearer. The proportions are not perfect on the map but at least you all understand.

@bandit and @magamadda I adjusted the final map to reflect the learnings of this weekend, is it correct according to you? If incorrect: please do not edit the map, but just let me know what needs to change - http://bit.ly/2qVmBkM

Thanks for your help! @waldo I sent you a private message on FB with a mini correction: Kids Kiez is bigger and a bit more down the road and 🍋⛺️ also a bit bigger, but basically that’s correct. Thanks!!

@bandit This is apparently what Lemon Kiez agreed with Suska (sent by Magda). Is that ok for you? I had the impression that this was underwater though...

this is partially underwater, and this area is too small for a 40 body kiez with a footprint of 650m2. what's camp-able on the space there is dramatically smaller due to hills.
Look this is only going to come to a head IF the site doesn't dry out.

@magamadda it might be a good idea for you guys to do an area estimate? Suska made us a measurement calculation tool that we would be happy to share with you... but I can tell you now that what you've indicted here take over half of the site that kinder can access.
:-( I know this is an unhappy situation, but we can work through it, and come out with something should worst come to the worst.

@bandit OK As I said what I have marked it´s just an imprecise area. Let me do that during lunch break. and I will get back to you. Suska said the guy from Freiland said the water will not be there in a couple of weeks. We will fit in, we are not so many.

@bandit @waldo @dylanwarren We need 120-140 square meters, which is exactly the area I marked. Less would be a little bit too little <3

Hey! I would love the area calculation tool if possible to help us plan the site! <3 @bandit

@waldo - I've noticed that the free camping zone has shrunk. What is the policy re: use of that space? May a camp member choose to be there even if they technically belong to a camp? Is it large enough to accommodate?

Thank you! Alina.

@pusch020@gmail.com I put a proposal on the map for "Das Schmauseschloss" ==> @randypence could you doublecheck? @whitney: the only downside of that spot it that it is a bit unflat and would need some work finding the best spot. Also, best to reserve some time to whack the grass flat as well.

@richard: proposed location for curious magic next to süßkiez and lemon camp on the map. It is not very big, but can host a nice booth where you can show off any sciency things, and I believe in the neighborhood there will be enough space for camping.

@waldo @randypence Hello Waldo, hello Randy! SuessKiez here. We have been wrestling with camp planning all day yesterday and have realised we have a space problem because of slopy slopes and the orientation of sound and the amount of space we need in terms of offerings + camp space. We have sent you an email regarding the issue. Could you please take a look? Happy Sunday <3

@waldo @randypence @sweetlikecandy will you please copy kieze@kiezburn.org on that conversation so we’re in the loop

Forwarding now!!! <3

All concerns you have, please post them here. We want to keep this site planning process as transparent as possible. tnx!

Hello Site Planning Crew, so here is the bulk of the information regarding SuessKiez allocated area struggles:

We (Suesskiez) need your help!

We had an extensive build plan session today during which we realised that the site we have cannot accommodate our camp offerings AND our camp kitchen AND all the sleeping tents for 35+ people that we are. You can see a couple of sketches we were working with today - the pile of tents on the side (16-18) is the one in "overflow".

As a camp, we will offer:

dj booth + soundsystem
dancing area (covered)
chill area (covered)
effigy
alienata (movable+stationary art)
firepit (possibly - hopefully)

to function as a camp we need
- kitchen
- covered eating space/camp gathering/resting space

Plus we hear the grey water tank is in "our" allocated space.

Plus tents for 35 people (most not in couples = not sharing, but also all tents fairly small)

Plus space to be able to safely walk around/get out (fire exits, as we are a bit confined in the valley) for both camp area and camp guest area

Looking at the map, we do not have enough ground (flat for tents) to be able to accommodate everything. We have tried a few solutions but this does not work. The large part of the area in red on the map is actually hills and unworkable space.

In addition , we have a situation with the platform and the strange YELLOW CIRCLE PIPE on it that make this space unworkable in terms of high-traffic camp or guest space as high hazard of tripping. Not the fun kind.

Lastly but importantly, we are limited with positioning possibilities because of sound direction to the East.

OUR QUESTION: If there a chance to allocate us a small tent-only area nearby (near Monkeys? Deine Mudda? Drug Sluts?) where we could pitch a small living quarters for members of the camp?

Looking forward to hear from you <3
Alina, Jan, Paul for SuessKiez.

Also, who can help us get rid of the STRANGE YELLOW PIPE? Does this need to be discussed with Freiland? Can we go ahead and do it ourselves? It's a pain in the ass and we want it to go :)

I've also gotten a request from underworld about expansion. Gate will probably not like, but in order to fit everyone, we will probably need to include northeast of the preferred gate to accommodate tents

sorry i´m getting confused about communication and we need confirmation for our soundcamp planning. randy stated end of april " ... the little area underworld marked between the mesa and valley is free for you to also camp in", he is refering to this map (layer UnderWorld): goo.gl/Dm67nF now i reached out to him because we want the area to be marked in the final map as well so everyone knows its the camping area from UnderWorld as we can´t camp in the valley for 2 reasons: Sound and Locations of Stage (there will be a concrete stage build from the Freiland crew). masters of mapping and site planning, thank you for an awesome job - can you confirm, please?

Unless we camp on our dancefloor and shrink the planned offerings to guests dramatically, this does remain an issue. Our purpose as a camp is to delight and entertain, but if we have to stuff the area to the brink and camp back to back, we cannot deliver....... Camping "around" is a bit vague and undefined. Depends on paths/exits, and state of things after Freiland.The area is mostly uneven/hilly. I would feel much more positive if we could have a certain solution/mini fallback plan for at least a small amount of tents (8-10) to pitch nearby.

I edited the thread on top to re-state the general principle: **
Consider the spot you are given on the map as where your core activities take place. **Tenting needs to be found person by person, tent by tent, either within that area, or just going around and spotting where one can put their tent that is not part of a Kiez's core area.

KBORG does not take responsibility for you causing a clash with your neighbors. Don't be an ass and go perimeter off hundreds of square meters for your tents that are outside of your core area.

Hey folks - It seems like there are some nice rolling hills in back of Suesskiez are a great place to camp... I even considered it to be further away from the noise at Burning Pig. I would 1) consider having some people tent back there who want to have a little more privacy; and/or 2) don't bring 35x2m tents... ; 3) mention to people that yes, those who come earlier will indeed get better camping spots (the more people there setting up at the same time on Wednesday, the easier to work out tent spacing, etc). I have a hard time not believing that there will be plenty of space in the end. There was last year, and this year the site is much much bigger. I understand that there aren't always solutions to make everyone 100% happy - I can promise that the team is working as hard as they can to accommodate 10,000 constantly moving factors.

hey @waldo hey@randypence thank you for your support. @randypence could you please specify "rolling hills in back of Suesskiez"? To both: we are of course aware of the need to make ourselves as compact as possible, and do and will plan in this manner. However I am glad you can remain open to two ideas: 1) our allocated area cannot contain everything - I align fully with @waldo suggestion that it should be treated as our "core activity" area, both for guests and camps (plus the amount of tents that can possibly go in there). The 2) fact is that our spot is a bit of a dish - with sound being dramatically amplified by the slopes(we did a soundcheck with a bluetooth speaker and the effect was interesting to say the least!). So asking the more sensitive (older??? :p) camp members to stay permanently bathed in that level of sound is just cruel. thank you for all your hard work and support <3 alles wird gut <3

@randypence your link gives me a location on the main road down South?! @waldo you can desert Deine Mudda and sleep IN SüessKiez if you want we will take you in even if we have to put tents on top of each other :heart: ;) @ both: I mentioned the sound as a secondary issue that is there and we cannot neglect. Our primary struggle is still just the space, but solutions will be found around and about. Our offerings will be awesome and we are looking forward to seeing you chilling with us <3

@bandit I'll send you their email address in Slack

they're small-ish (12 people), so maybe

@bandit I understood from the Lemon Kiez that they had discussed that with you. I understood they were fine in that location and Kinderkiez was also fine. They said they had discussed it with someone else from Kinderkiez (not you). If there are any changes, please let me know before this evening.

@sarahwarren4 is from Lemon camp. I will send this thread to Aviv & Magda and Dylan, so they can respond here.

It looks great to us! Thanks so much :)

this would imply that gate should move, as we probably do not have enough space for free campers elsewhere without tents springing up in places they shouldnt

tent is fairly standard "WURFZELT 2 SECONDS 2 FRESH&BLACK 2 PERSONEN WEISS QUECHUA" https://www.decathlon.de/wurfzelt-2-seconds-freshblack-id_8357352.html

layout with 2/3 of camp sharing tiny "2 person" tent, other 1/3 sleeping alone in tiny "2 person" tent, with 1m path between 1st and 2nd, and 3rd and 4th row, and 0.5m between tents otherwise for guy-lines takes 127.5m2, which is more than actual useable space (118m2), and leaves spare 38.5m2 for kitchen, water, offerings, common space, etc. from total allocation (166m2)

there has to be something wrong with Google Maps square meter calculations

@cjyetman and @sweetlikecandy your calculation is based on the circumference of your area (118m) and not the surface, which is 0,062ha, which translates to 620 square meter. 620 square meter is more than enough to house all of the amenities you propose. Therefore, i do not see the issue.

If you do lack space for tents, then please put your tents around there, there are plenty of little spots where different tents can go. I do not believe we have an issue here.

let them please ask here to remain transparent.

that "188m" seemed really bizarre, and off to me... had no idea that is circumference (of the smallest circle that contains the polygon?), which also seems like a bizarre thing to print... what is the purpose of that?

no idea :) But so: the single tent you showed above is 3,22m2 , add 1,7m2 for walking around, and you got 5m2. A 40person camp, with everyone their own tent, would add up to about 200m2. Add in 50m2 for some extra comfort and annoying tent placement, and you got yourself still 370m2 for other shabang :)

I would count on it, and if not: remove it and put it back afterwards? :heart:

You can use some of the space between the mesa and valley but you must also put tents in the valley. I would not use the concrete stage as your own, as it would create a 20m deep dancefloor, which will only look empty because there are only 700 total participants and several sound camps. Do something else with it and move the dancefloor eastwards

But this statement differs from the statement we planned on (that we can use the marked area). We need reliable information for our planning. Why we must place tents in the sound area if the space we marked would be enough for us?

we can extend the flow camp camping area over there a bit, no prob. lets evaluate at burning pig.

I am sorry Annette, but that area cannot be reserved completely for Underworld and will not be marked on the map. You will be able to put tents there, as Randy stated, but also Payamcakes wants to put some tents there. The Mesa itself not available for tents. As Randy also said: you probably will want to plan some tents within the valley itself. There is some overflow next to the valley, but not that much is available. I am aware this is not 100% satisfying and also that this poses an advantage to people that come earlier to put their tents in nicer places.

From a site planning perspective, we will not be micro-managing the little hills etc. where tenting is possible.

FYI: most camps at burnign man and Nowhere put their tents right next to their big sound stage.

I am sorry, but we cannot indicate on the map 100% where all the tents will go. Your main area is covered and that is about what we can do on this kind of terrain. I am aware this is not 100% satisfying and also that this poses an advantage to people that come earlier to put their tents in nicer places.

From a site planning perspective, we will not be micro-managing the little hills etc. where tenting is possible.

FYI: most camps at burnign man and Nowhere put their tents right next to their big sound stage.

Given the pains that süßkiez and drug sluts are having, I am concerned that Pyjamacakes may also need some tent space, as Waldo has written. I do not see the justification in only using the valley for public space. Every other kiez is having to balance out their public and private space design

There is a simple option of closing the showers above the grey water tank when it's full. That way it won't need to be emptied during the event, and a larger area will be usable without leaving a drive-in. They grey water tank is going to be roughly 2.5x5m and will be parked as close to the slope as possible. Questions regarding yellow pipe and wooden platform will need to wait until next Wednesday unfortunately. Is it's more urgent let me know and i will push outside of the Wed call schedule.

thank you. Guess we will have to live with the options.

I totally understand if you do not want to tent in the major sound area. I will sleep right next to Süßkiez and will bring adequate ear-protection. Please welcome people that do want to tent in that area if you do not put your tents there. Tnx!

https://www.google.de/maps/@53.8324987,13.2399111,120m/data=!3m1!1e3 (copy entire url)
this is the ridge meant. Considering the noise would be made by your own kiez, the more sensitive members of your kiez will have to suck it up or camp elsewhere.

the ridge is right above it

The ridge is about 6m wide and 100m long from where wings of aya ends, but I cannot guarantee all of it is usable for tents.

Based on your volume levels last year, I would not want you in a designated quiet area

I'm also not sure how to go on. On one hand I really like the plattform-valley, on the other hand the quiet zone argument makes sense. Also: Would it be smart to put a camp that revolves around candy next to Kinderkiez? :thinking:

I think we'd need to talk about this face to face, at the assembly or whatever else is happening next. Cheers!

Alina, there really hasn't been much to report. The placement discussion was apparently being done in private communication between Site Planning and the Kieze, so we don't have any details about that. Other than that, we've mostly been setting up events and asking questions on behalf of the Kieze over and over again until we get concrete answers, which we were not really getting until about now. My goal was to have the bulk of these things answered before the next Kieze meeting on Thursday and Burning Pig that weekend, and it's looking like we're gonna get there. We also have a newsletter coming out today in which we've compiled a bunch of information that is finally settled. We want to avoid a situation like what has happened with the placement, where unsettled information is taken as settled, so prefer not to report about discussions that don't end with some concrete answers, which is, so far anyway, about 95% of the discussions we have. So basically what's been going on behind the scenes is that we've been doing, on behalf of the Kieze, the frustrating task of trying to get concrete answers to questions that are important to Kieze, and it's been a slow process because many things have not been settled until very recently.

Hey CJ, thanks for chipping in. We are all aware that site planning is tricky and so is organizing the build of a larger camp. The location was confirmed to me (yes, in a private slack conversation) and so we started to make plans and arrangements according to that location. We even found a solution to the space problem - which wasn't super easy. So there was quite a bit of time and effort that was location-dependent. Discovering that we had been moved without any heads up just made me angry.

I already let this go, but I want you guys to know that the way this happened wasn't cool. Peace! :pray:

Thanks for the clarification Henrik. Obviously I wasn't privy to your private conversations with Site Planning. I was a bit confused why some Kieze were convinced that the Kieze placement had already been finalized, especially since we're still registering new Kieze (just got one new one yesterday). I hear your frustration with how things went down... I will make sure to discuss that next time Area51 meets. Glad to hear that your current site is not unworkable, or at least that's how I'm interpreting your response. 👍🏼Let us know if there's anything we can do to help.

Thanks SuessKiez. As I've said in my reply to Henrik, I personally was not included in the private discussions you had with Site Planning, so I don't know the what/how/why of it, but I hear your frustration with it, and I will make sure we discuss it next time Area51 meets. I don't have any immediate ideas of how to resolve the lack of tree problem... though I do believe there are some trees on the South side of your location at the base of the hill. I will investigate that and take some pictures and report back to you after Burning Pig. Also, your original placement is just 20m North of your current location, and according to the "final" map, is not yet specifically assigned to anything. It is meant to be a quiet zone, but maybe we could talk to Site Planning about moving SuessKiez back to that location with a stipulation of keeping the sound system on the far South end, which would maybe not be so much different than having a sound system at your current location? I can't promise that, but I can advocate for that if you think that's a better solution for you. I also can't promise that kborg will be able to build anything for Kieze... I only suggest that as a potential way of resolving the issue... to get our minds in the how-can-we-fix-this mode, but if you have something specific in mind, I will also advocate for that.

essentials are how many people, power requests, etc.

alright, I'll follow up with them

@randypence all 3 of those Kieze put in their expected number of Kiez mates, and 2 of the 3 put in their power requirements... am I missing something?

I sent an email to Yaeli asking for their power estimates

the info isnt in the spreadsheet, which ive been using for art, kiez, etc placement. where do you have it?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NNKUSpklAR357jC68oCPxlB50A4-0jg0MxvLGfkx8KM/edit#gid=439520485

Yaeli - 20 people - waiting for response about power needs

Lemon Camp - 12 people - 3000 for lights (We will likely have minimal power requirements, and just need power for lights and charging for a small camp. I doubt we would have any wired sound or art pieces that require power. )

Bandana republic - 6 people - 250 lights, 250 sound

@cjyetman @joicebiazoto I do not have lemon'S contact info

• I would not be closing down the registration, we can still place them on the website
• All registrations now, are too late to force other Kieze to move. We need to put an end to the endless going back-and-forth. Empty spots are up for grabs though.
• The decision in how far we want to accomodate these new Kieze, is up to Randy (site planning) and Anke (site placement)

650m2 seems a bit large Amber. Please orientate on 4-5m2 per person. So that means 300-350- max 400 m2 for the whole kiez.

I agree that 650m2 seems rather large for 40 people, but 4-5m2 per person seems extremely low to me. One person laying down flat on their back takes up about 2x1m, whatever tent or shelter above them needs to extend beyond that to keep them out of the rain etc., and they need a bit of room to store all of their stuff they need to survive for many days. That alone is easily 4m2, and that leaves no room for walking between tents, no room for a shared kitchen or other structure, and no room for any public space for art, workshops, dance floor etc.

it's unworkable in its current form... but thats ok, we'll figure something out :-)
I updated the campable space for lemon and kinder on the final map, based on what we walked out on our wading mission, and added an underwater layer.

Might be good for this year's site planner & placement lead (@ancka ) to evaluate a little bit how much actual space was occupied. My impression is that we will have loads of empty space all throughout the site.

I would prefer not to, since freecampers do need space as well. If we take that space from them, you can also not blame them for camping inside "your" area. to be discussed with @ancka

Does that mean that Kieze are allowed to take over empty space that's outside of their designated area to setup workshop areas, etc.?

Free camping in general has not really been allocated much. The previous marked region now turning into lemon/kinder was really just a placemarker in case no other camps emerged. As it currently stands, 455 participants are placed in a kiez. There are what, 700 or so tickets in total? 150 people still need a place to build their tents. There is ample space north east of gate, but it is still outside of the gate. At the southern boundary, there is some space between the lakes, albeit often in hilly terrain. There is also space on and around the ridge north of hte road above Underworld

I don't know. For Süßkiez I would say no, since you guys are so big alraedy. But I want to step outside of this process again and leave it to randy (site planning) and Ancka (site placement) again. Exact process will be discussed here: https://www.loomio.org/d/2c69upPG/site-placement-planning-kborg

at the same time, the site placement lead and gate, will need to point freecampers to where they CAN camp. In order to avoid freecampers thus setting up their tent in "Kieze areas", it would be wise to demarcate clearly where the freecampers can go.

definitely, although it would be cool to be able to print at least some of the designated freekiezing spots in advance. Do we want freecamping to occur outside the gate?

One small argument here would be that Wonderers (Rangers) will NOT be doing their strolls outside Gate, so that makes the whole thing a bit more complicated, as many of the freecampers are likely to be virgins and not so aware of things like LNT and so on. I would advice against it.

and the workshop tent should go where?

i think thats a great spot for it

My impression after the meeting tonight is... no, it will not be possible to allocate an additional camping area to Süßkiez for 16-18 tents (which would be absolute bare minimum about 1mx2m tent x16 = 32m2). As far as I understand, that size of an unallocated, flat, usable area simply does not exist anymore (inside the festival gate). Others, feel free to clarify or contradict.

please see below. sorry, I thought this went live last night, but for some reason it did not (did not press "save" after adding attachments - duhh!)

Yes. I put this (and whether or not the shower grey water will need to be accessed during the event) on the list of open questions for Freiland. Next call with Freiland is Wednesday. Maybe/hopefully we'll get answers to that.

adding more images for discussion...

because you might need to share it. My understanding was that it would be overflow for your kiez, not the entire camping area.

how about the ridge above the road south of you?

We wouldn´t have marked the area clearly and asked if we can use it for camping if we wouldn´t need it for camping ;) For our build team is pretty unmotivating now that they might need to reconsider plans although I told them we are safe with camping up there already in April. So what are you plans in that area? It´s not even big and we try to squeeze in as much as we can.

Remove and attach it afterwards is Plan B. But even with that platform as a "usable" place for tents and fooling around, the valley still does not provide enough flat surface. We have to expand a bit, closer to drugsluts and there-is-no-monkey-camp area.

you know the site better Randy, what do you think, how many 2x2m tents can we place there?

@randypence During the site visit the Drug Sluts were camped up there. I started discussing with Calum about taking it for Suesskiez but it seems Drug Sluts ALSO have a space issue, because the shower block is going where their main space was going to be and they need to expand their camping site too. I also have no idea how many tents can fit up there, since I didnt measure that space for Suesskiez :<

FYI... there was a call with Freiland today. These questions were not answered. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eVX4rhDH-rnCBR5n8qoNPj-VoO7z4fbhm2dHv6XR8ko/edit

Great feedback! Thanks Alina! The map in it's current state is final with the exception of: when everyone agrees to change a certain position. So if for example Süßkiez wants to change location with Just Being and they are both fine with that + Kinderkiez & other kieze agree and are fine with that + no issue for power, then yes, we can change locations. So feel free to take up those discussions here. From an overview POV, the map as it currently is right now however, is the best possible solution we could find. But nobody is perfect... So if you have suggestions, feel free to put them here and everyone can chime in.

Regarding Kieze communication: we'll work on that and hopefully be more communicative soon :)

We can discuss it a bit more here: https://www.facebook.com/events/170005333828721/
But also at Burning Pig. Hope you might be convinced of the new spot. It really is a weighing of all options...

cool, added them to the power sheet. Just waiting for Randy to put them on the map and then I can link in the power requirements. So cool!!!

@randypence what info do you need from them?

Sure thing and sorry to chime in so late guys!
The main problem we had last year was proximity to sound and not being able to escape from it at all on the site. Kinder was in a relatively quiet (from a WM site perspective) corner, but it was still loud and thumpy, and very difficult to escape.
Kinderkiez IS the one of the main reasons for this shuffle, but also we have had more space open up too us which means more land area to place camps.

We got A LOT, and I do mean a lot, of feedback on the levels of noise about last year's event, and wanted to emulate sound zone in much the same way the big Nevada burn does in making loud camps group together, while putting quiet and silent areas for relaxed and family camping away from these zones. We have an opportunity with the Freiland site to create something very similar, while working with the directional sound from larger camps. The last thing we want is to kill the party... but the party can't happen everywhere!!

It's never going to be completely quiet but we can work with the landscape to create quiet pockets. We also have villages very close to us, which meant placing sound camps up in the top northwest corner would have more than likely resulted in very pissed off surrounding villages, and added to the lack of ability to escape and chill away from thumping tech beats. More than anything we want a good working relationship with these villages in the future, and need to follow the guidance from Freiland about where to place and point sound. This has resulted in a reshuffle but let's all walk around the site keeping in mind that different Kiez have different requirements when it comes to level of noise, and see how we can collaborate to make the best of this for everyone.

Lastly we all need to hiFive Randy and Waldo as they are doing their best with changing requirements for us all.

yaeli, lemon, and bandana info is too incomplete to place with

pulled down the formula on number of kieze mates in the location sheet as well, seems like that formula just wasnt pulled down anymore

@waldo can this new kiez occupy part of the deine mudda stretch, due to proximity to drug sluts?